Horrible Fans at the Olympics!

[disneyangel7488]

If the Koreans had a problem with it they should have appealed it immediately. And honestly, as fast as those gymnastices routines go, how could anybody REALLY see it all? It's all a blur!

That's what I don't get about all this. The Koreans should have said something immediately, not a day or two later. IMO< they should just give duplicate gold medals, rather then Hamm give back a medal that he earned.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Unfortunately, the president of the FIG, Bruno Grandi, said the following:

“For me, the best situation would be for Paul Hamm to take this medal and give ...” Grandi said, pretending to remove a medal from around his neck and leaving the sentence unfinished.

Well, that's just great. the FIG says it has no power to do anything. So let's place the responsibility for "fixing" the situation squarely on the shoulders of the one guy who didn't do anything wrong, Paul Hamm.

 

[spagheddie]

If it were me I certainly would have booed Hamm. I don't believe Hamm won the medal and should give it back. If the IOC wants to award 2 gold medals than I'd be fine with that. But he needs to step up and offer to give it up.

 

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by theSurlyMermaid
Unfortunately, the president of the FIG, Bruno Grandi, said the following:



Well, that's just great. the FIG says it has no power to do anything. So let's place the responsibility for "fixing" the situation squarely on the shoulders of the one guy who didn't do anything wrong, Paul Hamm.

It IS Hamm's responsibility and he is doing something wrong now, which is keeping something that is not his. It's unfortunate that he was put in this position but he and only he can make it right.

 

[bananiem]

Originally posted by spagheddie
If it were me I certainly would have booed Hamm. I don't believe Hamm won the medal and should give it back.

This is the thinking that I just don't get. At the end of all of the events the point board showed Hamm had the most points. The rules state that "he with the most points wins." The Koreans did not step up and say anything. So the gold goes to Hamm.
Hamm's a 21 year old who has worked his whole life for this moment. So he should give up his medal to the Korean , who it turns out shouldn't have won the gold either? Where's the silver medalist in all this? Shouldn't he now be saying HE deserves the gold?!?

 

[snoopy]

Originally posted by spagheddie
It IS Hamm's responsibility and he is doing something wrong now, which is keeping something that is not his. It's unfortunate that he was put in this position but he and only he can make it right.

Wha?????? They awarded him the Gold medal, and now its not his? Thats ridiculous.

Ummmm, wasn't it already established through watching the videotape of the parallel bars that the Korean had four holds on the bar, when the rules only allow three? And that would have been a bigger deduction than what was held back at the start? I just don't understand how someone can look at this information and say that Paul Hamm is not a true champion. The gold is his, its not tarnished, he deserved it.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by spagheddie
It IS Hamm's responsibility and he is doing something wrong now, which is keeping something that is not his. It's unfortunate that he was put in this position but he and only he can make it right.

No, he cannot. He did not score himself nor did he demand a gold medal of the judges. It was awarded to him based on their scoring. It was their error and it it is THEIR responsibility to fix it, not his.

Not to mention the OTHER deductions the judges missed in the S. Korean's routine, which would have scored him even lower than he ended up with. He didn't deserve to win.

 

[danacara]

I suppose we're seeing why they're gymnastics officials and not politicians, hmm?

 

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by bananiem
This is the thinking that I just don't get. At the end of all of the events the point board showed Hamm had the most points. The rules state that "he with the most points wins." The Koreans did not step up and say anything. So the gold goes to Hamm.
Hamm's a 21 year old who has worked his whole life for this moment. So he should give up his medal to the Korean , who it turns out shouldn't have won the gold either? Where's the silver medalist in all this? Shouldn't he now be saying HE deserves the gold?!?

First of all it doesn't matter that he's 21 and worked his whole life for a gold medal, what is it worth if you didn't earn it? He'd be more of a champion in my eyes if he offered to give the medal back.

Secondly, I don't buy for a second this notion that Hamm and the US Gymnastic team went back and looked at the tape and found more errors and so it wouldn't matter. Why then when the story first broke, did they not want to review any tapes?

If this was a case of a judgement call during the actual performance and the judges saw something that might not have been there and scored lower I would be fine with Hamm as the gold medalist. But it wasn't, the performance was flawed from the very beginning. The deck was stacked against the SKorean before he could even succeed or fail on his own and for that reason Hamm should offer the medal back.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by spagheddie
It IS Hamm's responsibility and he is doing something wrong now, which is keeping something that is not his. It's unfortunate that he was put in this position but he and only he can make it right.

In that case, why have judges? Why not just have the athletes judge each other -- let them decide who wins and who loses.

Heck, why don't we expand this to ALL sports -- can't you just picture the wide receiver who caught the winning Hail Mary pass in the Super Bowl going to the officials and saying, "No, no, I was actually out of bounds. I know the instant replay didn't show it, but it's true. Please take the touchdown off the board and give the Super Bowl to the other team -- thanks."

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by spagheddie
Secondly, I don't buy for a second this notion that Hamm and the US Gymnastic team went back and looked at the tape and found more errors and so it wouldn't matter. Why then when the story first broke, did they not want to review any tapes?

No, the FIG broke their own rules by looking at the tape on video after the meet was over. No one is supposed to look at video after the meet is over, which is why they didn;t "demand" to see the video at first. There is no "instant replay in gymnastics. Now, after the FIG looked at the tape, Hamm and the USA coaches (and probably everyone else) decided to have a look at it and found the missed mandatory deduction.

And, btw, they showed the routine on NBC last night and Tim Daggett helpfully pointed out each and every one of the four holds. It's a mandatory deduction and it was missed, just like the mistake on the scoring value.

You don't have to "buy it". But the fact is, the judges should have scored the S. Korean team even lower than it was already was.


If you're going to go back and look at the video, why should you count one error against the judges and not the other?

 

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by theSurlyMermaid
No, he cannot. He did not score himself nor did he demand a gold medal of the judges. It was awarded to him based on their scoring. It was their error and it it is THEIR responsibility to fix it, not his.

Not to mention the OTHER deductions the judges missed in the S. Korean's routine, which would have scored him even lower than he ended up with. He didn't deserve to win.

I'm sorry I just totally disagree with this line of thinking. In my eyes it's not about points it's about doing what is right.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by spagheddie
I'm sorry I just totally disagree with this line of thinking. In my eyes it's not about points it's about doing what is right.

AGreed. It's right for Paul Hamm to keep his gold medal.

 

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by theSurlyMermaid
No, the FIG broke their own rules by looking at the tape on video after the meet was over. No one is supposed to look at video after the meet is over, which is why they didn;t "demand" to see the video at first. There is no "instant replay in gymnastics. Now, after the FIG looked at the tape, Hamm and the USA coaches (and probably everyone else) decided to have a look at it and found the missed mandatory deduction.

And, btw, they showed the routine on NBC last night and Tim Daggett helpfully pointed out each and every one of the four holds. It's a mandatory deduction and it was missed, just like the mistake on the scoring value.

You don't have to "buy it". But the fact is, the judges should have scored the S. Korean team even lower than it was already was.


If you're going to go back and look at the video, why should you count one error against the judges and not the other?

The reason you count the one error and not the other is that they are different. Missing one of the holds and not deducting for it was during the actual performance therefore a judgement call.
The other error came before the performance even started. It was flawed from the outset.

 

[spagheddie]

Originally posted by theSurlyMermaid
AGreed. It's right for Paul Hamm to keep his gold medal.

Sure, finders keepers. That's the hallmark of a true champion.

 

[danacara]

Originally posted by spagheddie
Sure, finders keepers. That's the hallmark of a true champion.

Wanting to strip a gold, fairly won by the rules as put forward at the time of the competition, from around the neck of a kid who worked for this since birth, when awarding a second gold would be a perfectly good solution to all parties involved ... that's hardly the hallmark of grace.

 

[tinatark]

So, Paul should give away the gold medal that was awarded to him, what about the silver and bronze medal winners? Should they pass those medals along to the *rightful* owners, too?

Oh, and while we're at it, there are quite a few official calls that caused my NFL team to lose last season, can I move those *losses* to the *win* column? Uh oh, we may have to replay the Super Bowl.

Officals are just that - officials, with stops in place if a coach thinks the call was wrong... *coaches challenge* in the NFL, rules in the Olympics. Unfortunately, if you don't refute the call immediately (especially this one, which the Korean coaching staff should be under fire from the team members for missing)... the official rulings stand. Heck, in the NFL, even WITH instant replay, officials make bad calls. That darn human factor.

 

[adamak]

I kept thinking, what if last nite happened in Atlanta, and it was an American instead of a Russian who was given a low score. Wouldn't US fans booed even louder? I don't think fans were behaving badly. It's the scoring schema that got everyone frustrated over the past couple days. Think about it....something that looks perfect scores a 9.7 range. Then someone did OK, but took a step at landing scores 0.05 less only? How is that possible? Fuzzy maths to me.

 

[Chicago526]

And all of this is deceptive to the fans. Moves that look impresive and difficult often aren't as difficult as they look, and "simple" looking moves can be very difficult. One of the anouncers for NBC (the former gymnast, I can't think of his name) said this durring Hamm's routine on the high bar, when he was doing one-arm twisting rotations. They don't look like much but they are just as difficult as some of the high flying release moves. But the audience doesn't know that, so it looks like the Italian or Russian routine is better, because they do more releases. It's hard to judge apples to oranges.

I still think the judging stinks, but it's not as cut and dry as it looks to the lay person with no gymnastics background. This whole thing is a mess.

Look, there is no instant reply in baseball, I just saw my beloved Cubbies lose to the Padres (of all teams ) because of several bad calls by a home plate ump that the Cubs have had problems with before. But I'm not screaming for game to go to the Cubs because of several bad calls. It's the game of baseball, sometimes, the bad calls go against you and sometimes with you. I think gymnastics is the same. All we can do is try to get better judges next time. Everyone keeps the medals they were given, and the ones that didn't get the medals, well, I feel bad about the situation, ut "thems the breaks" as my mom always said.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Originally posted by Chicago526
And all of this is deceptive to the fans. Moves that look impresive and difficult often aren't as difficult as they look, and "simple" looking moves can be very difficult. One of the anouncers for NBC (the former gymnast, I can't think of his name) said this durring Hamm's routine on the high bar, when he was doing one-arm twisting rotations. They don't look like much but they are just as difficult as some of the high flying release moves. But the audience doesn't know that, so it looks like the Italian or Russian routine is better, because they do more releases. It's hard to judge apples to oranges.

I still think the judging stinks, but it's not as cut and dry as it looks to the lay person with no gymnastics background. This whole thing is a mess.

Awesome point. You are right. It was Tim Daggett, btw.

Hamm and a few of the other gymnasts (not Nemov, though) did do one-armed swinging and some different and difficult grips, which an audience doesn't even notice and is certainly not nearly as interesting as flipping over a high bar, no matter how many form breaks there are.

Not that I think the judging last night wasn't bad, though. It was. It was just as ghastly on parallel bars as well. Why aren't people complaining about the Ukrainian gold when the Japanese fellow who went first should have won?