HOLY COW..."Kramer" goes nuts!

[letterdavidman]

Well, it seems money has reared it's ugly head now. The two men in the audience haved retained counsel and now want monetary compensation. Sorry, and I was very vocal in my shock at what happened and in calling Richards a jerk, but I don't believe this calls for a cash award. Anybody feel that these two men deserve to recieve money over this incident?

Other than (possibly) a refund of the admission price, no. Not one red cent. Funny. I knew it was only a matter of time before one or the other of the men started crying "victimized" and stuck out his hand for the payoff.

 

[blondeheroine]

Thought I would jump in.

First, is Michael Richards being a little (or a lot) disingenuous when he declares that, in light of the recent developments in his life, he in fact is still not a racist? Um, yes.

But this latest item (in conjunction with the earlier Mel Gibson incident) immediately calls to mind two things. 1) Years ago (about 1990, I believe), I was watching MTV news, and they were doing a piece on the latest N.W.A. album (their first album after Ice Cube left, titled "Efil4zaggin"). The interviewer asked Dr. Dre and Eazy E about their decision to title one of the album's tracks "Appetite For Destruction". Dre quickly answered that it's because they "loved Guns 'N' Roses". The interviewer then somewhat incredulously asked them how that could be possible, considering Axl Rose's recent pointed use of the "n" word on the song "One In A Million", from the EP "G'N'R Lies". And Dre and Eazy E responded with a shrug and the answer, "Everybody's got a little racist in 'em."

2) A couple months ago, regular "Grey's Anatomy" cast member (and African American) Isaiah Washington lashed out at fellow cast member Patrick Dempsey while on set, and called him a "******". This prompted another, supporting cast member to come out of the closet and declare publicly that he was gay. As of this time, Isaiah Washington is still employed as an actor on "Grey's Anatomy", and, in fact, producers have gone on record as stating that they have no intention of firing him. And this is, of course, without Mr. Washington feeling the need to offer up any sort of public mea culpa, or apology.

Opinions?

That's funny about Dre's quote about everyone being a racist because Sinbad said the same thing on CNN. However, I think I differentiate being a racist from having prejudice. Racism, for me, would imply hatred. Prejudice implies, for me, being unfamiliar with cultures, relgions, nationalities and, as such, having preconvieved notions that have to be abolished or dealt with. I could have my terms messed up, but that's how I've come to see it.

As for Isaiah, that's very disappointing. I had heard of a debacle of some sort, but since I don't watch the show, never really paid attention to what it was about. Unfortunately, bigotry against the gay community is still widely accepted. There is even a thread on this very board where members of this very board declare they believe gay people to be immoral and an abomination. That's strong wording and it's so widely accepted - in not only this country, but in others as well - that using derogatory terms against someone who is gay isn't perceived as being as flammatory. I have personally known one gay man who has had the crap beaten out of him while exiting a club with his boyfriend and the sad thing is that he *wasn't* surprised. So so so many people consider this time of bigotry acceptable because they believe it in their right to judge someone who is gay because of words in a religious text (and, oddly enough, this same text also reads, "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.").

As I said in another post, I wish we could just forget what "groups" we belong to, what labels we have and just see each other on an individual basis. If we hate, then hate a person - not a group. I'm not saying hate is right in any situation, but there will always be hate. Why must it be based on what a person is or isn't? Why does hate have to be so basic? There are plenty of A-holes out there and they come in ever shape, color, religion, sexual orientation, whatever in the book.

ETA: I'm tired right now, so please forgive me for any grammar, spelling or vocabulary mistakes. I'm just too tired to correct them. Why am I still awake? Who knows.

 

[my4kids]

Well, there is a reason Seinfeld gave up some of his Lettermen airtime to allow Richards to apologize. Jerry was there promoting the DVD sets from the show which is very very lucrative for all parties involved. I am sure the RACIST tag cast on Kramer will affect sales of the box sets and both Jerry and Richards know this.

Did anybody really think Jerry would want to publicly associate himself with Richards after that tirade for anyother reason???

I know! I couldn't believe that Letterman or Seinfeld were givng him the time of day! - but you're right, Jerry doesn't want it to effect his DVD sales and God forbid the Seinfeld reruns get pulled from syndication in some markets! He was trying to get his spin doctors to fix it up Kerry style. You can't say that, say it THAT WAY , and then think you can say "I'm not a racist" and we will all believe you........There is just no coming back from this one......just the fact that it came to mind in a rage.......he's a racist for sure...and a really ugly one too.....I can imagine it would be nerve racking to be continually interupted during a routine....but I would say "hey can you shut up?" It wouldn't even register what their race was.

The other thing was , it didn't end with the name calling, he went on to say "that's what happens when you interrupt a white man" As if it is ok to interrupt a black man?

I know there is racism in the world, and luckily I am not exposed to it, I just always thought it was lurking in extremely uneducated people in some other part of the country...I was absolutely SHOCKED at this, and find it scary that something like that could be lurking in someone and you don't know it until the go nuts.

 

[KikiFan]

i also felt bad that while Richards(wether anyone believes him or not) was trying to apologize, people were laughing, and Jerry had to tell them to be quiet.

There were a couple of reasons they laughed. The show was filmed at 4pm, the story was just starting to break. A lot of the audience had probably been standing in line since 3pm (or even earlier) and didn't have a clue what he was apologizing for. And then there was his use of the outdated, "Afro-American" phrase which went out in the 60's.

As for Richards having no money? I seriously doubt it. The man was paid $600,000 per episode the last year that show aired. That's $600,000 x 20 for one year.

I would be very carefull of the slippery slope you're on. If you thought people were upset in this country over the Patriot act, just wait til what you propose, happens. I would rather hear someone like Richards spew his nonsense and be punished by losing work, fans, etc, instead of being sued. Once you start lawsuits over speech you find offensive, the next target may be you. Free speech should have it's limits within reason, but by implementing lawsuits you're basicly doing a moderen version of book burning and censorship. Once you start to change the way people speak by the threat of legal action, then we as a nation have truly lost our freedoms. Think about it.
__________________

I understand what your saying about Free Speech. In essence, I do agree with you. Protecting Freedom of Speech means protecting even those that say vile and repulsive things. And I do agree that someone is entitled to say racist things. But here's where I draw the line. Richards didn't just say outloud his racist comments as part of the show or a random conversation. (which to me would be protected) He went off script to berate an audience member, he humiliated the man and suggested that physical harm should come to him because of his race. To me, he verbally abused the man. I think he's crossed a line when he made it personal against one person in a public forum. That's why I think he needs to pay up. That sort of verbal abuse shouldn't be tolerated. I can't even imagine how that man felt standing there being told all those vile things.

I doubt it will go to court. I'd bet that Richards will pay the man just to get some leverage in the situation. If he pays the man he can make it a condition that he never speak publically about it.

 

[letterdavidman]

That's funny about Dre's quote about everyone being a racist because Sinbad said the same thing on CNN. However, I think I differentiate being a racist from having prejudice. Racism, for me, would imply hatred. Prejudice implies, for me, being unfamiliar with cultures, relgions, nationalities and, as such, having preconvieved notions that have to be abolished or dealt with. I could have my terms messed up, but that's how I've come to see it.

As for Isaiah, that's very disappointing. I had heard of a debacle of some sort, but since I don't watch the show, never really paid attention to what it was about. Unfortunately, bigotry against the gay community is still widely accepted. There is even a thread on this very board where members of this very board declare they believe gay people to be immoral and an abomination. That's strong wording and it's so widely accepted - in not only this country, but in others as well - that using derogatory terms against someone who is gay isn't perceived as being as flammatory. I have personally known one gay man who has had the crap beaten out of him while exiting a club with his boyfriend and the sad thing is that he *wasn't* surprised. So so so many people consider this time of bigotry acceptable because they believe it in their right to judge someone who is gay because of words in a religious text (and, oddly enough, this same text also reads, "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.").

As I said in another post, I wish we could just forget what "groups" we belong to, what labels we have and just see each other on an individual basis. If we hate, then hate a person - not a group. I'm not saying hate is right in any situation, but there will always be hate. Why must it be based on what a person is or isn't? Why does hate have to be so basic? There are plenty of A-holes out there and they come in ever shape, color, religion, sexual orientation, whatever in the book.

ETA: I'm tired right now, so please forgive me for any grammar, spelling or vocabulary mistakes. I'm just too tired to correct them. Why am I still awake? Who knows.

I agree with what you're saying. And I'll ask you this question: Why is it expected that, in order to insure the continued viability of their respective careers, Michael Richards and Mel Gibson have to play the attrition-by-talk-show-appearance game, and Isaiah Washington does not? Could the answer be liberal white guilt?

 

[smartestnumber5]

I agree with what you're saying. And I'll ask you this question: Why is it expected that, in order to insure the continued viability of their respective careers, Michael Richards and Mel Gibson have to play the attrition-by-talk-show-appearance game, and Isaiah Washington does not? Could the answer be liberal white guilt?

I think the answer is that it's perfectly acceptable to a large number of Americans to hate or dislike gay people--and to make those feelings publically known. But many fewer Americans think it's acceptable to publically hate or dislike black people.

 

[blondeheroine]

I agree with what you're saying. And I'll ask you this question: Why is it expected that, in order to insure the continued viability of their respective careers, Michael Richards and Mel Gibson have to play the attrition-by-talk-show-appearance game, and Isaiah Washington does not? Could the answer be liberal white guilt?

Honestly, yes. I believe that, sadly, that is part of the reason. I'd say that half of the white people in the media that are so, "Oh that's so bad. Horrible." have never really thought about why the words are horrible. They just don't want to be perceived as racist and are quick to say they are horrified by Richards words. Which makes me wonder just how many of these people are actually really horrified by the words. I doubt that many people think of the word as a word painted on signs selling slaves to wealthy white men or as the last word some men and women heard before they were hung to prove a point. There are a lot of white men and women who understand this, but how many people are just paying it lip service to look like they are sensitive to the issue and maintain their dignity?

On the other side of the coin, few people see the word you mentioned earlier in the same light. They fail to see how Matthew Shepard was beaten to death while having those words flung at him and how other gay men and women have endured the same violence and continue to. But, this is what we have to remember: Once upon a time, the N-word, as we now refer to it, was once taken the same way. It was acceptable. And at the same time, there were a few caucasian people who saw the reality behind its use. Just like there are a few of us now who see the reality behind derogatory words used against anyone who is gay. So, what we do is we stand up for what we believe in and we teach our kids how to be accepting and tolerant so that they, in turn, will teach their kids to be accepting and tolerant.

 

[letterdavidman]

Honestly, yes. I believe that, sadly, that is part of the reason. I'd say that half of the white people in the media that are so, "Oh that's so bad. Horrible." have never really thought about why the words are horrible. They just don't want to be perceived as racist and are quick to say they are horrified by Richards words. Which makes me wonder just how many of these people are actually really horrified by the words. I doubt that many people think of the word as a word painted on signs selling slaves to wealthy white men or as the last word some men and women heard before they were hung to prove a point. There are a lot of white men and women who understand this, but how many people are just paying it lip service to look like they are sensitive to the issue and maintain their dignity?

On the other side of the coin, few people see the word you mentioned earlier in the same light. They fail to see how Matthew Shepard was beaten to death while having those words flung at him and how other gay men and women have endured the same violence and continue to. But, this is what we have to remember: Once upon a time, the N-word, as we now refer to it, was once taken the same way. It was acceptable. And at the same time, there were a few caucasian people who saw the reality behind its use. Just like there are a few of us now who see the reality behind derogatory words used against anyone who is gay. So, what we do is we stand up for what we believe in and we teach our kids how to be accepting and tolerant so that they, in turn, will teach their kids to be accepting and tolerant.

I couldn't agree more. And you put it so eloquently!

 

[rie'smom]

I saw this on CNN this morning. I think I see an announcement about his entering rehab in a few hours......

 

[fabshelly]

Stuff like this makes me wonder how I'll handle the inevitable racism I'll someday encounter with my husband-to-be and my two new kids from his first marriage.

We'll encounter some racism in Korea, too, I'm sure, as a "mixed" couple.

I guess it's like they say on Avenue Q....

 

[letterdavidman]

Just read this in an article about Michael Richards hiring a crisis expert. The quote is from Jesse Jackson:

Jackson added, "We have to evaluate the use of the n-word and categorize it as hate speech, no matter who uses it."


If that happens won't that pretty much spell the end of rap music as we know it? Not to mention seriously put a damper on the careers of 90% of young African American comics working today?

(Here's a link to the entire article:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061123/D8LIPF4G1.html)

 

[Enchanted Tiki Bird]

I watched this video the other day on YouTube and was completely appalled. I am a really big Seinfeld fan. It is my favourite television programme of all time. To watch this really outburst hurt me. I almost felt duped because for all of these years I loved Michael Richards. I still think that he was a phenomenal actor especially with his slapstick abilities. (And, for the record, he didn't just turn to stand-up because he couldn't get work elsewhere; he's always been a comic.) So, to see someone so beloved do something so terribly wrong is quite upsetting. No matter how much I want to defend him, I can't. I just kept asking myself: Was he drunk? On drugs? What? Regardless, he's still racist but I'm just wondering how he could let this happen. It doesn't even seem sane.

I've read carefully through this thread and I have a few comments on the issues that have been discussed.

1. Some people said that the hecklers were equally or partly at fault for the incident. I completely disagree. Richards is the professional in this situation and he's doing his job when he's on stage. The complete and total onus, then, rests on him to act professionally. He did not. So, the possible bad behaviour of those hecklers is irrelevant. There is no excuse for him saying the things that he said.

2. I see absolutely nothing wrong with those men seeking compensation for the abuse to which they fell victim I felt embarassed for them as I watched that video. I can only imagine the humiliation they must have experienced. For those concerned about this compromising free speech, I would like to remind you that this isn't a matter of free speech but it is a hate crime. Richards didn't simply say vile, offensive things but wished physical harm on a group of people because of their race. If he only gets sued civilally and not charged criminally, he should consider himself lucky.

3. I too thought it was very bizarre for him to go on Letterman to issue his public "not-quite-apology". I think it was very nice of Jerry and Dave to provide him with the space to do so but I would have thought that a good publicist would have advised otherwise. By choosing that forum, he simply confused the audience and came across to the viewer as a disingenious fool trying to cover up his *** when it was obviously too little too late.

 

[Chuck S]

If that happens won't that pretty much spell the end of rap music as we know it?

We could only hope so , maybe we'll get back to being able to understand the lyrics.

Not to mention seriously put a damper on the careers of 90% of young African American comics working today?

Why? Humor does not depend on vulgarity, look at the classics, like Burns & Allen (say goodnight, Gracie) Funny is funny, regardless of race. Even ethnic humor doesn't have to be obnoxious (a Priest, a Rabbi and an Athiest go into a bar...)

 

[letterdavidman]

Funny is funny, regardless of race.

I agree. And never let it be said that I don't enjoy blue humor as much as the next human. After all, look at my sig. It just seems to me that many of the "up-and-coming" young black comedians' (and comediennes') acts are sorely lacking any substance (a la Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, and Dave Chapelle), and they fill the void, so to speak, with a barrage of the "n" word.

However, I originally quoted J. Jackson because I found his comment humorous--he's apparently attempting to alienate a large chunk of his base. I'm sure making the public use of the "n" word, no matter who's uttering it, illegal hate speech will surely go over well with a lot of rappers and comedians.

 

[blondeheroine]

I watched this video the other day on YouTube and was completely appalled. I am a really big Seinfeld fan. It is my favourite television programme of all time. To watch this really outburst hurt me. I almost felt duped because for all of these years I loved Michael Richards. I still think that he was a phenomenal actor especially with his slapstick abilities. (And, for the record, he didn't just turn to stand-up because he couldn't get work elsewhere; he's always been a comic.) So, to see someone so beloved do something so terribly wrong is quite upsetting. No matter how much I want to defend him, I can't. I just kept asking myself: Was he drunk? On drugs? What? Regardless, he's still racist but I'm just wondering how he could let this happen. It doesn't even seem sane.

I've read carefully through this thread and I have a few comments on the issues that have been discussed.

1. Some people said that the hecklers were equally or partly at fault for the incident. I completely disagree. Richards is the professional in this situation and he's doing his job when he's on stage. The complete and total onus, then, rests on him to act professionally. He did not. So, the possible bad behaviour of those hecklers is irrelevant. There is no excuse for him saying the things that he said.

2. I see absolutely nothing wrong with those men seeking compensation for the abuse to which they fell victim I felt embarassed for them as I watched that video. I can only imagine the humiliation they must have experienced. For those concerned about this compromising free speech, I would like to remind you that this isn't a matter of free speech but it is a hate crime. Richards didn't simply say vile, offensive things but wished physical harm on a group of people because of their race. If he only gets sued civilally and not charged criminally, he should consider himself lucky.

3. I too thought it was very bizarre for him to go on Letterman to issue his public "not-quite-apology". I think it was very nice of Jerry and Dave to provide him with the space to do so but I would have thought that a good publicist would have advised otherwise. By choosing that forum, he simply confused the audience and came across to the viewer as a disingenious fool trying to cover up his *** when it was obviously too little too late.

I honestly am sorry because I know what it is to be disappointed in someone you looked up to. You're right. It does hurt. I was never a big Seinfeld fan, but I've met people that I've looked up to - and while none of those people were ever this vile - it still hurt to see what reality really presented to me. Get this: I had a crush on Mel Gibson in high school. I am SO glad I got over that one YEARS ago. I would have been crushed. I think I would have been crushed even before the anti-semitism rants when he released the Passion though being as I'm not Christian and he very clearly displayed his hatred against anyone who isn't (and no - I'm not saying that making a Christian based movie means he hates non-Christians, but the interviews he gave at the time clearly displayed this hatred).

I would like to clarify MY statements regarding the heckler. I don't think the heckler is at fault for MR's statements and I hope I didn't make it appear that way (I was once, however, under the impression that the first racial jabs came from the heckler, but that was quickly corrected by someone on here). I do find the words the heckler used offensive, but at no time did I attempt to say they are "equal" to MR's words because I certainly don't believe that. I realize that some others might have actually said that, but I certainly don't feel that way. I merely think that any racial epithet is offensive. That's just where I stand on the issue. No, I don't compare the two words. I just find them all to be lazy ways to insult someone and, in the same breath, insult others who have no say in the matter.

What's funny is that the only two characters I ever really enjoyed on Seinfeld were Jerry and Kramer. I always found George to be way too neurotic (especially as the series progressed) and Elaine just way too annoying. So, what little enjoyment I got out of the show is completely ruined for me. I mean, you can't really see Kramer as the happy-go-lucky guy when you know the actor who plays him is full of hate. Same for Mel. And honestly, I am really, really sorry for those who are big fans of the show. My best friend is and she refuses to even discuss it at this point. I can't imagine having something that I love taken away by such a piece of human trash such as this guy. And it really, really sucks for Jerry. I know he's not financially hurting, but that was still his creative baby. For years, no one will be talking about his show anymore, but about this and that just plain sucks.

I couldn't agree more. And you put it so eloquently!

Thank you.

 

[KAHNNA]

I wouldn't doubt but what a white supremicist (I can't friggin spell it - I tried, I really did) will donate to him. I'm sure it will be undercover and we'll never know about it unless someone investigates it, but I don't doubt it. Especially if that blind item that someone posted earlier is true.

First, wouldn't it be hypocritical of a "white supremicist" to donate money to Mr.Richards being that he's jewish?

Second, I do wish people would stop assuming that ALL BLACK PEOPLE refer to each by the N word. I seriously doubt any of us can say every BLACk PERSON that walk the face of this earth use this word to greet one another.

 

[blondeheroine]

First, wouldn't it be hypocritical of a "white supremicist" to donate money to Mr.Richards being that he's jewish?

Second, I do wish people would stop assuming that ALL BLACK PEOPLE refer to each by the N word. I seriously doubt any of us can say every BLACk PERSON that walk the face of this earth use this word to greet one another.

I don't think Richards is Jewish and according to that blind item, he supposedly donates to these groups through the web. This was actually discussed on another board I frequent and they said that he was simply Catholic. Plus, it's being reported that Richard's past acts have used anti-Semetic jokes as well.

I don't have anyway to verify these facts. Only what I've heard.

 

[disneyjunkie]

There was a report on the news here last night about Richards offending Jews some time ago. At the end of the piece the reporter said that Richards is Jewish.

 

[Enchanted Tiki Bird]

There actually has been a dispute for some time over Richards religion. The following quotation was taken from Wikipedia:

"On November 22, 2006, reports surfaced that Richards had made Anti-Semitic comments during a stand-up routine earlier in 2006. Richards' publicist, Howard Rubenstein, confirmed the report, and added that the remarks were made as part of the act, and that Richards himself is Jewish.[18] The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles, citing anonymous sources said to be familiar with Richards including a television director who is said to have worked with Richards for several years, has claimed that Richards is not Jewish and was raised a Catholic.[19]"