High School for only 2 years? What do you think

[Tiggeroo]

I teach high school. There are many hs students who lose interest in the school process. For some students Sr. year in particular is a bit of a waste. I wish something like this had been available for my dd.

 

[barkley]

Barkley, our HS considers classifies "dual-enrollement" as still being in HS. I suspect all HS do this.

The reason you are considered a "freshman" is because you have not graduated from HS yet. Technically you are still a HSer as you have not been released.

You make a good argument for dual enrollment. I am not to that bridge with my youngest. It helps that she is focused on school unlike her sister who is still figuring things out.

just to clairfy-it's the COLLEGES in our state that consider these students freshman, and it's not based on the student's not yet graduating from high school. the criteria is a student who earned their college units prior to graduating from high school.

let's say that a student who participates in this graduates from high school in 2010, then for whatever reason decides not to immediatly go on to college. 3 years down the line they decide that they want to go to college. for the college's application purposes, because the credits were earned prior to that student graduating from high school-that student would be deemed for their fall 2013 admission, as a college freshman.

where it gets realy interesting/advantageous is with funding for that post high school college attendance-

for state, institutional and private freshman based scholarships the student is eligible b/c of their freshman standing, BUT-for federal student loan programs, which traditionaly allow for higher awards for second and third year college students-these students are for those purposes eligible as well.


while the bulk of the kids that do this program are doing it the traditional dual enrollment route (the college classes count for their high school requirements), there's also a population that uses it with no intent of going on to a 4 year college. because the state says the colleges can only limit what a student (in high school) enrolls in on the basis of weather there's any pre-req's for the course (for any student as listed in the college catelog), that opens the door for a high school student who just wants to get a certificate from say a vocational program to continue attending traditional high school during the day, and then taking their certificate classes evenings and weekends (lots of the colleges are offering more non tradition hour courses for working adults). the kid graduates from high school same as everyone else, but graduates with their certification in an industry they might already have a job lined up for-all at no tuition. you also get some students who use the program to take college level courses in areas of their personal interest-like theatre and music. they have no desire to go on to college after high school, but they want to take advantage of the more advanced training and opportunities a university level course will afford them.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

just to clairfy-it's the COLLEGES in our state that consider these students freshman, and it's not based on the student's not yet graduating from high school. the criteria is a student who earned their college units prior to graduating from high school.

let's say that a student who participates in this graduates from high school in 2010, then for whatever reason decides not to immediatly go on to college. 3 years down the line they decide that they want to go to college. for the college's application purposes, because the credits were earned prior to that student graduating from high school-that student would be deemed for their fall 2013 admission, as a college freshman.

where it gets realy interesting/advantageous is with funding for that post high school college attendance-

for state, institutional and private freshman based scholarships the student is eligible b/c of their freshman standing, BUT-for federal student loan programs, which traditionaly allow for higher awards for second and third year college students-these students are for those purposes eligible as well.


while the bulk of the kids that do this program are doing it the traditional dual enrollment route (the college classes count for their high school requirements), there's also a population that uses it with no intent of going on to a 4 year college. because the state says the colleges can only limit what a student (in high school) enrolls in on the basis of weather there's any pre-req's for the course (for any student as listed in the college catelog), that opens the door for a high school student who just wants to get a certificate from say a vocational program to continue attending traditional high school during the day, and then taking their certificate classes evenings and weekends (lots of the colleges are offering more non tradition hour courses for working adults). the kid graduates from high school same as everyone else, but graduates with their certification in an industry they might already have a job lined up for-all at no tuition. you also get some students who use the program to take college level courses in areas of their personal interest-like theatre and music. they have no desire to go on to college after high school, but they want to take advantage of the more advanced training and opportunities a university level course will afford them.

Well that went over my head.

I can't recall right now the rules here. My dd was not allowed to take CC after graduation according to the University rules as she would have been considered a transfer student. She graduated a semester early.

I think there are several programs for HS students here, esp. in the district we moved back to. I don't know all the rules right now because we moved back to MO from TX when my older dd was a senior. In order for her to do CC she had to be full time through the SR YR and she did not want to so that. She decided to graduate early.

In TX they relied on AP classes as the way to earn college credit. There were no community colleges to do "dual enrollement" at and furthermore if they did have that option they would need CC just for high schoolers since there are so many people in TX. It would be a logistical nightmare I suppose. The high schools are competitive enough.

Anyway, I have awhile to think about it. My younger dd is in 7th and the direction she takes will depend on how HS goes.

Heck older dd might be back her next yr to go to CC instead of back to a state college.

 

[Inigo]

In 1982, I graduated after 6 semesters total in high school. After the forms approving my request were approved, I was bumped up (in the third week of school) from Junior year status to Senior year status. I was 16 at graduation. I began classes at a 4 year university two weeks after graduation, living in the dorms. Indiana University did not consider me to be any different than any other incoming high school graduate freshman enrolling. It was the best thing I could have done. My college friends were older than I was, but many of those friends are still my friends almost three decades later.

I wish my son could have done this. At 16, as a Junior in HS, he was ready to go to college. Being forced to spend another year in HS did not benefit him very much, and he was bored. DD would not have been successful if she had gone to college at 16. She had the ability, but she's shy, and I think she needed to stay in HS for all four years. She's halfway through her freshman year in college, living in the dorms, and she is thriving.

 

[portocall]

My sister did the dual enrollment at BCC in Brevard county. She actually had her college graduation a week before her high school graduation. She left high school after 10th grade and never went back to the high school for any class or extracurricular event.(though she could have if she wanted to) There are downfalls of the dual enrollment, such as the state universities not accepting certain credits, but still overall it is an excellent opportunity.

 

[MiniGirl]

I just skimmed through the thread, and I didn't see much mention of money.

With our dual enrollment, those college classes/credits for high school students are free (to the student/parents). However, if they allow students to graduate after 10th grade, then I assume those classes would no longer be free. Call me cynical, but I think it is all an effort to cut costs.

On a more personal level.... I'm not sure how I feel about this. I had a blast my last 2 years in high school. I went to a magnet school, so I was with a completely new group of students, and it took awhile for me to find where I fit in. My senior year, especially, was a cake walk. I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

In college, it was the same thing. I was 17 when I started, and it took time for me to find where I belonged. (Not many of my highschool classmates went to our state university.) On the other hand, it would've been nice having some credits under my belt already and not have to take 18 hours during my first few semesters.

 

[viviensmama]

Just because they are able to pass the exam doesn't mean the students are ready to be thrust into a college environment...even a junior college. You are talking about 16 year old kids in classes with 18 and older students. I think it is a bad idea in general.

I agree. There is a lot of education that goes on in high school that has nothing to do with academics. I'm sure there are lots of mature students who could do this, but in general it sounds like a bad idea. Teens need time to mature.

 

[MizTink]

I agree. There is a lot of education that goes on in high school that has nothing to do with academics. I'm sure there are lots of mature students who could do this, but in general it sounds like a bad idea. Teens need time to mature.

my DS16, who is a junior, says the only thing he gets from the whole "high school experience" besides the academics, is exposure to drugs and gangs.
(of course this was when he was trying to convince me to let him drop out and get his GED. he wanted to go to our local vo-tech to be a firefighter. you can't do that until your 18 anyways, so i won!!)

 

[golfgal]

my DS16, who is a junior, says the only thing he gets from the whole "high school experience" besides the academics, is exposure to drugs and gangs.
(of course this was when he was trying to convince me to let him drop out and get his GED. he wanted to go to our local vo-tech to be a firefighter. you can't do that until your 18 anyways, so i won!!)

That is really sad, actually. We are lucky to have better schools then that here--not that there aren't drug problems everywhere but kids aren't exposed to it unless they choose to be. We don't have gang issues either.

 

[hereyago]

I just skimmed through the thread, and I didn't see much mention of money.

With our dual enrollment, those college classes/credits for high school students are free (to the student/parents). However, if they allow students to graduate after 10th grade, then I assume those classes would no longer be free. Call me cynical, but I think it is all an effort to cut costs.

On a more personal level.... I'm not sure how I feel about this. I had a blast my last 2 years in high school. I went to a magnet school, so I was with a completely new group of students, and it took awhile for me to find where I fit in. My senior year, especially, was a cake walk. I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

In college, it was the same thing. I was 17 when I started, and it took time for me to find where I belonged. (Not many of my highschool classmates went to our state university.) On the other hand, it would've been nice having some credits under my belt already and not have to take 18 hours during my first few semesters.

OP here. The 2 years of community college would be free to the student. It was in my original post.Don't skim too much or you might miss something j/k.

 

[LisaR]

Doesn't CA have this exact program in place already? I only know one person that lives out there but she has mentioned multiple times to me over the years that her DD will be able to take an exit exam in 10th grade. If she passes, she can graduate HS and go on to the CC for 2 years for free. I know she has said this to me before because we always joke that it is dependent on CA having enough money when her DD finally reaches the right age. This person has only lived in CA for four years so maybe she is mistaken. Curious if this exists in CA already and how it has worked for them?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm curious-for those who have mentioned they have done an option like this-do your schools lack additional academic electives, and AP classes? Because one of the comments I've noticed is kids not being challenged.

I am curious, because in looking at DD's next few years, she doesn't have time for many electives. Or maybe more accurately, her electives are still academic. Basically, ENglish, social studies, math, science, foreign language and religion (Catholic school) make up 6 classes. For her 7th period, it includes 1 year of PE, 1 of fine arts, plus 1 semester of computer literacy. So that only leaves 1 1/2 years for an elective. She has the option (as a sophomore) of taking 3 honors classes and one AP class. This year she has 3 honors classes. It's not just because she attends a Catholic HS though; local public HS's alsp offer alot of honors and AP classes.

I know my friend's son attends a similiar program...the HS program is housed at the local JC. Students go 4 years and finish with a HS diploma and AA degree.

For my dd it wouldn't work-she is very "into" the HS experience.

For my friend's son, who doesn't do any activities like that, it's great. He also wasn't looking for a traditional HS experience.

Julia

For me, the college class I took was in lieu of a high school class.

So I had English Composition 1 & 2 senior year and did not take senior high school English.

AP exemptions are not guaranteed. The coursework is extremely challenging and though you may do extremely well in a class, the college credit is not guaranteed. For this reason, I personally preferred a dual enrollment option if available. I take the class--meet the requirements--pass the exams and voila, college credit that can actually be computed into a GPA.

I took AP Calc and while it took care of a portion of my GEneral Education math requirements for college, it did not weight into my GPA and I still had to take another 3 hours of anything so that my total required credits would be satisifed. It was not a big deal. But I could not imagine that if I had say the equivilant of a full semester for AP work. While it would have saved me from course specific work--I'd still have to come up with 15 additional credits.

I still have my transcript and my AP Calc credit is simply a math exemption and nothing more.

To me--college in high school should not be supplemental and thus "elective" in nature. If offered, it should be for dual credit--thus--as a substitute for what you would have taken in high school.

My choices at the time were only English and College Algebra. I chose AP Calc, b/c I wanted the higher level math.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

here the courses for dual are designed to be those that are transferrable, and it's the REALY rare kid that would take the courses at the c.c.-they take them from the university.

they must have set it up pretty well-a neighbor's kid is graduating this spring from the program, and she's mulling enrollment/scholarship offers from some pretty prestigious colleges in a variety of states.

UF did not frown on my dual enrollment one bit.

Of course--that depends on if the SUS of Florida is considered a "good" set of colleges by outsiders.

Here--anyone who graduates with an AA/AS is automatic for entry into University. All the courses are coded the same. Yes, I do think that CC classes are a bit easier than University, but it doesn't make their value any less. (I think that has to do with smaller class size.)

In Florida, only those students still in high school are eligible for dual enrollment and college on the states dime. If for example a student opted to GED their way out of high school and then go to college, it would be on their own dime.

As for high school--not everyone's high school experience is ideal. I went to 3 and that actually made the ride a little smoother for me. But I could have done without the cliques, snobbery, competition etc--that I witnessed in ALL three of my high schools.

 

[barkley]

Doesn't CA have this exact program in place already? I only know one person that lives out there but she has mentioned multiple times to me over the years that her DD will be able to take an exit exam in 10th grade. If she passes, she can graduate HS and go on to the CC for 2 years for free. I know she has said this to me before because we always joke that it is dependent on CA having enough money when her DD finally reaches the right age. This person has only lived in CA for four years so maybe she is mistaken. Curious if this exists in CA already and how it has worked for them?

i don't think california c.c.'s offer free tuition in these situations.

you can attend c.c. there if you're 15 or older, or if you're in 10th grade or higher but if you want the class to count for college credit you still have to pay the same rate as traditional college students (right now around $26 per unit). a high school student could take the class for just high school credit and pay around $1. you're also limited in the number of units you can take-11 or less.

i think the exit exam your friend might be talking about is the chspe which can be taken in the sophmore year and gives (for some purposes) a high school graduation equivilency, but it does'nt provide an avenue for reduced or free college tuition if you've passed it.

california has looked at doing programs similar to what other states offer, but i suspect with the massive funding cuts to education they won't be proactive on it in the near future.


i gotta say though-i miss those california c.c. tuition rates-$26 a unit is allot more affordable than the $80 per unit here.

 

[luvmy3]

All I know is that my senior year was a complete waste of time. Back when I graduated, all the requirements for a Regents diploma were done by Junior year so I spent my senior year taking mostly business classes that were useless since I wasn't getting a business or school diploma. I would have much rathered spent that year taking college credit courses.
I'm pretty sure now in my State requirements are different.
As far as gaining an education that isn't based on academics in H.S, you certainly don't need 4 years of that to figure it out I wouldn't have an issue with only 2 years of HS. Maybe that would just start forcing real education at the elementary level so that they are prepared to graduate at 16.

 

[agnes!]

...Every state has different base requirements for graduation and those really determine how much time you have for electives. Some schools, like ours, go above and beyond the state requirements too. To graduate from our high school you have to have 4 years of social studies, 4 years of Language Arts, 2 years of a foreign language, 3 years of math, 3 years of science, 1 year of "arts" (music, performing, drawing, etc.), a trimester of economics and 2 years of PE. Freshman and sophomore year you have 2 hours/day that aren't required courses but for kids in band or choir that takes up one hour. If you are planning on doing 4 years of a foreign language, that takes up the other. In your junior year you have a little more room for electives but not much. Your electives are really choosing which classes inside of the required classes you want to take--say British Literature vs Creative Writing for your language arts credit. Senior year you are down to having required classes of social and Language Arts so you have more room for electives.

The idea is for kids to take some classes they wouldn't normally take to see if they are of interest for a future career.

I WISH our county/state did something like this. Our HS absolute *requirements* are 4 years of Math, 4 years of Science, 4 years of Social Studies, 4 years of English, 3 years of Language plus some other electives & PE. And it's a mess what the system counts as a requirement and what the 'system' says is only an elective. She could take a remedial-level class and that would count as a 12-grade requirement and *yet* if she wants to take a high-level elective it won't.

...I know my son is basically riding out his senior year here in NY. Electives and two required courses..that they basically stretched out until taking in his senior year so as to have these kids show up for school. He's home done and back hom at 12:30 in the afternoon. ...

Ha, I wish DD could have such an easy Senior year, maybe then she'll have time to do all these applications to college. See my other comment re: our years of requirements.

My 8th grader has applied for Early College HS here in NC. It's set up where they take all their HS courses the first two years and then college level courses their Jr/Sr year. It's also been designed where the college courses they take will transfer to schools in state like ECU, Duke, UNC, etc. with no problems. I do think a parent should strongly consider their childs maturity level before considering a program like this as each child/person is different. We have no problems seeing our daughter cont. to grow in this type of environment and when she graduates she'll start college as a Jr. It's part of our public school system so we don't have to pay for books, tuition, nothing. As it is, most of the 8th graders (including her) are in AP English and either Algebra or Geometry and receiving HS credits for these classes. It would be crazy not to have other options they could consider vs just taking a bunch of electives their 12th grade year. This of course is just my opinion. We each have to do what we feel comfortable with.

I wish my DD could have started taking some higher-level courses earlier in our system but it simply wasn't allowed. And she would have been so ready to do your type of HS/College enrollment.

...In terms of AP vs. dual enrollment, again it all depends on the university. The ones I have checked into welcome dual enrolled students. My DD doesn't have any intention of going to an ivy league school. Some colleges love AP's and others recognize that everyone and their brother now takes AP's and they aren't as special as they were originally intended. In addition, the AP classes are useless if they don't pass the test and too many kids are failing. Please do not think I am knocking AP's but there are positives and negatives of AP's and DE. The university will have the final say and right now there are plenty that are fine with both. In both cases, you are taking a chance because there are universities that will not count AP work and others that won't accept DE credits. I almost wish there was some sort of across the board standard (although I see the issues with that, as well).

If anyone's interested in a somewhat hard-bitten view of AP classes & high-school achievement, check out "Race to Nowhere" at http://www.racetonowhere.com/ . I think the saddest clip from the movie was when the Director of Admissions at Stanford quoted her high school DD as saying "Good, I won't have to take any more French" after the DD finished AP French.

Off this thread's subject but many years ago, my sister was double-promoted in grade-school, so she was two years ahead of her same-age peers. I think she graduated from high school before she could drive and she graduated from college (going to a very good & what might be seen as a public ivy college) from *college* when she was still a teenager...I think 18.

That is really sad, actually. We are lucky to have better schools then that here--not that there aren't drug problems everywhere but kids aren't exposed to it unless they choose to be. We don't have gang issues either.

It almost sounds like you're saying that your schools don't have drugs?... I can *guarantee* that drugs are in your local schools, public and private, and that it *does* impact your children's educations. If any of your children have classmates who come to school drugged-up, or they have fellow students who somehow manage to be or even get drunk during classes, it impacts even the drug-free kids' school-day. My DD still talks about the kids in her one class a year or two ago who were stoned every. single. day.

agnes!

 

[punkin]

I She could take a remedial-level class and that would count as a 12-grade requirement and *yet* if she wants to take a high-level elective it won't.

Yes, we have this too. DD was pretty much forced into AP English Lit this year even thought she hates it because the class she wanted to take "advanced composition" does not count for an English credit. The other choice was on-level English 12 but DD refuses to take that because the kids in that class are not serious about their academics. It is basically a teacher babysitting the seniors until they can graduate. So she is stuck in AP Lit. BTW, have I mentioned how much I despise AP classes in general and DD has taken 7 of them, again because there is no other choice for a smart child who is into academics.

On the other hand, DD was no where near mature enough to start college after 10th grade. I am not sure she'll be ready next year.

 

[agnes!]

...She could take a remedial-level class and that would count as a 12-grade requirement and *yet* if she wants to take a high-level elective it won't....

agnes!

Yes, we have this too. DD was pretty much forced into AP English Lit this year even thought she hates it because the class she wanted to take "advanced composition" does not count for an English credit. The other choice was on-level English 12 but DD refuses to take that because the kids in that class are not serious about their academics. It is basically a teacher babysitting the seniors until they can graduate. So she is stuck in AP Lit. BTW, have I mentioned how much I despise AP classes in general and DD has taken 7 of them, again because there is no other choice for a smart child who is into academics.

On the other hand, DD was no where near mature enough to start college after 10th grade. I am not sure she'll be ready next year.

Oh my word...THAT IS EXACTLY THE SITUATION WE ARE IN, exactly...right down to the exact classes being offered with the only variation being substituting another advanced elective for your 'advanced composition'. I am stunned.

punkin - take a look at that "Race to Nowhere" site, you'll probably find your self nodding in agreement at a lot of their conclusions...if you're interested, they might even be having a screening in your area.

agnes!

 

[punkin]

punkin - take a look at that "Race to Nowhere" site, you'll probably find your self nodding in agreement at a lot of their conclusions...if you're interested, they might even be having a screening in your area.

agnes!

I saw that NYTimes OPED they have a link to on the site you posted. I did agree with a lot of it. There are no screenings in my area. Looks like everything is in California.

The whole system is broken, from grade school on. I hope things get better in college.

 

[Mrs. Charming]

I went "early admission" to college (a regular college, not a community college) in lieu of my senior year in HS. I was 17 at the time.

I don't regret this one bit, I don't feel I missed out on anything, and I think it's a reasonable option for an intelligent, mature HS student.