Hey...Teacher...leave those projects at school!!!

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Besides working as a group, which is valuable learning...
...

The only thing valuable I ever learned from working in groups in grade school is that I wanted the rest of the group to be pallbearers at my funeral. That way they could let me down again one last time for old time's sake.

 

[chelynnah]

Not really getting the animosity towards the OP. It was a post venting about projects outside of school. The project still got done, just a vent. I happen to agree, I hate school projects, especially group projects. In 16 pages, my mind has not changed, I still find them mostly useless. And if they aren't useless, do them during school. Of course, I also find homework useless, so there's that... The excuse that "it's always been done that way," doesn't work for me. Things change all the time, often for the better. My kids still do the projects, but I can exert my right to vent about it. Other people vent about other things that wouldn't bother me, don't feel the need to attack them over it. One of my three is now homeschooled and finishing school around 2pm is a beautiful, liberating thing.

For me personally 'We've always done it that way' usually is one of my huge soap-boxes and I hate it. Where it applies here is that the OP claims they didn't know, weren't informed, couldn't possibly have expected that it would happen. But it's always been done that way so why wouldn't they expect it to happen?

Much as I hated homework and out of school projects etc, it is not possible to do everything that is required to learn inside the school hours. Students read at different speeds and levels, so if English or History classes were spent reading the books/materials, then there would be no time to discuss and learn. Same with many other things. OMGosh if I had to read in class I would have been bored to tears. I would have finished the books days and hours ahead of many of my classmates. In fact in one class where we were assigned to continue reading our novel I remember I was finished the book and actually fell asleep and woke to the teacher having taken all my stuff to see how long it would take for me to wake and notice.

People learn in a myriad of ways, and over differing time scales. Unless you want to increase the school hours by another couple of hours per day, then it's just not possible. Curriculums are already cutting out things because there aren't enough hours in the day. I was horrified to go back home to Canada earlier this year (I now live in the UK) to find that they aren't teaching WRITING - as in cursive, as in 'joined up writing'. I know that the world is reliant on computers and tablets, however if you don't learn it who is going to be able to read it 20 years down the road? They're not even taught to sign a name as a signature. Well, gee printing a name could be even more easily forged than any written signature. And their hours are an hour less than when I was in school.

So while I despise the excuse of 'we've always done it that way' when there's no actual reason given for why it's been done and is worth continuing, it doesn't always mean that it's the wrong thing to do. Change just for the sake of change is equally as dangerous and unjustified.

 

[msjprincess]

Not really getting the animosity towards the OP. It was a post venting about projects outside of school. The project still got done, just a vent. I happen to agree, I hate school projects, especially group projects. In 16 pages, my mind has not changed, I still find them mostly useless. And if they aren't useless, do them during school. Of course, I also find homework useless, so there's that... The excuse that "it's always been done that way," doesn't work for me. Things change all the time, often for the better. My kids still do the projects, but I can exert my right to vent about it. Other people vent about other things that wouldn't bother me, don't feel the need to attack them over it. One of my three is now homeschooled and finishing school around 2pm is a beautiful, liberating thing.

When I said I was doing projects over 30 years ago I didn't mean "that's the way it's always been, suck it up". I just don't understand why the OP seems surprised by it, as if it had never been done before.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

The only thing valuable I ever learned from working in groups in grade school is that I wanted the rest of the group to be pallbearers at my funeral. That way they could let me down again one last time for old time's sake.

Oh, my gosh. So true.

I have to say, it also taught me that I didn't want to work at a job where I had to heavily rely on people to do their part. I wanted a job where I could either be in charge or I could check up on the work as it was completed.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

.

Also, could you imagine taxes if schools paid for everything??

.

No need to imagine anything for me regarding such. We studied it in our county. $5 a year on property taxes. And $10 a year covered both supplies and instrument replacement and repair for the larger instruments in high school, middle school and elementary school.

 

[piccolopat]

I think it depends on the school. In our district, work is not given before vacations because vacations are considered an unexcused absence. So a teacher would not be allowed to do that.

That's why I said "if at all possible". In your district, the child would either have to do the work upon returning or take a zero for the assignment. It is a parent's decision to take that risk when they choose to take their kids out of school.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Oh, my gosh. So true.

I have to say, it also taught me that I didn't want to work at a job where I had to heavily rely on people to do their part. I wanted a job where I could either be in charge or I could check up on the work as it was completed.

HAHAHA Me too.

 

[Jaime4004]

For me personally 'We've always done it that way' usually is one of my huge soap-boxes and I hate it. Where it applies here is that the OP claims they didn't know, weren't informed, couldn't possibly have expected that it would happen. But it's always been done that way so why wouldn't they expect it to happen?

Much as I hated homework and out of school projects etc, it is not possible to do everything that is required to learn inside the school hours. Students read at different speeds and levels, so if English or History classes were spent reading the books/materials, then there would be no time to discuss and learn. Same with many other things. OMGosh if I had to read in class I would have been bored to tears. I would have finished the books days and hours ahead of many of my classmates. In fact in one class where we were assigned to continue reading our novel I remember I was finished the book and actually fell asleep and woke to the teacher having taken all my stuff to see how long it would take for me to wake and notice.

People learn in a myriad of ways, and over differing time scales. Unless you want to increase the school hours by another couple of hours per day, then it's just not possible. Curriculums are already cutting out things because there aren't enough hours in the day. I was horrified to go back home to Canada earlier this year (I now live in the UK) to find that they aren't teaching WRITING - as in cursive, as in 'joined up writing'. I know that the world is reliant on computers and tablets, however if you don't learn it who is going to be able to read it 20 years down the road? They're not even taught to sign a name as a signature. Well, gee printing a name could be even more easily forged than any written signature. And their hours are an hour less than when I was in school.

So while I despise the excuse of 'we've always done it that way' when there's no actual reason given for why it's been done and is worth continuing, it doesn't always mean that it's the wrong thing to do. Change just for the sake of change is equally as dangerous and unjustified.

Agreed with most of what you said. Definitely don't mean for kids to read every book altogether in class, that would have made me want to cut my ears off.. Reading outside of class is not the same to me as the busy-work often assigned (and I include many of the projects in this). I wouldn't advocate change just for the sake of change either. Show me the value in these projects and extra assignments. There's enough studies showing homework (in elementary) is not useful but my kids still have/had it. Time to change that, as some other schools have done.
Happy they did learn cursive though, IMO that is still useful. There's plenty of things still written in it, even in kid's books. DS was reading Diary of the wimpy kid in 2nd grade and there were some parts written in cursive that he couldn't read. They learn it in 3rd here.
In my perfect world, in my kid's middle school, i'd get rid of FACS, PE and/or Tech Ed. That can all be done at home (yeah, i know that not everyone will but i'd still rather my kids focus on other things). I didn't have FACS (the old home ec) or tech ed and still managed to learn that stuff throughout life. Use that time to get all the more important work done that can't be finished in class and needs to be sent home.

 

[roseaster]

Interesting discussions. On the vacation thing, as another perspective, our school considers vacations unexcused absences. They aren't required to give you work ahead of time, and they aren't required to allow you to make it up. Any absence of over 3 days in a row requires a doctor's note.

I don't think all projects are good learning experiences, and, oddly, one of the biggest issues with projects I have had is with the teacher who does give class time for the kids to work on their project.

Our middle school does an 8th grade science project. All science classes do it, but the one teacher really takes it to the extreme. He uses a lot of class days to let the kids "work on the project." My personal opinion is that he is doing this rather than teach. The project is at the end of the year, so for us in the beginning of June, and most of May is spent with the kids either sitting in the library or the classroom "working on their project" while he does god knows what.

There are really little or no guidelines on the project, only that he has to approve the topic.

To add insult to injury he allows the other students to "grade" each presentation so it, really, ends up as more of a popularity contest in some classes and in my daughter's class everyone got an A, regardless of the work, because they looked on it as an agreement. Everyone gives everyone a good grade.

I was telling my daughter (college freshman) about this topic and she reminded me of her high school freshman Romeo and Juliet project. They loved the teacher (both girls had him, twins so 2 projects in the same year) he really tried to keep the class interesting and keep the kids involved. The project was, as a group, they had to re-write a scene in Romeo and Juliet in modern time and make a movie of it.

The kids loved it. They enjoyed doing the project. Even the kids that weren't readers loved it and did it. All of this project was done on non-school time. My involvement was 1 trip to the craft store, where I sat in the car. I am guessing the cost of the craft supplies wasn't much because I can't recall. Drove one to a friend's house twice. Hosted 1 group at our house on a Saturday and Sunday and sprung for pizza and soda on Saturday.

I want to know if there are any school districts that furnish school supplies. My kids go to public school and I pay nearly $14,000 a year in property taxes and I still have to buy school supplies.

I don't think the issue is that someone was venting, I think the issue in this alleged situation is that the person blamed the teacher for the student's poor choices. I think we have all been frustrated by projects, for me, mostly on the elementary level, because beyond that I really don't get very involved in the kids projects. They work it out and tell me what they need.

 

[mummabear]

Agreed with most of what you said. Definitely don't mean for kids to read every book altogether in class, that would have made me want to cut my ears off.. Reading outside of class is not the same to me as the busy-work often assigned (and I include many of the projects in this). I wouldn't advocate change just for the sake of change either. Show me the value in these projects and extra assignments. There's enough studies showing homework (in elementary) is not useful but my kids still have/had it. Time to change that, as some other schools have done.
Happy they did learn cursive though, IMO that is still useful. There's plenty of things still written in it, even in kid's books. DS was reading Diary of the wimpy kid in 2nd grade and there were some parts written in cursive that he couldn't read. They learn it in 3rd here.
In my perfect world, in my kid's middle school, i'd get rid of FACS, PE and/or Tech Ed. That can all be done at home (yeah, i know that not everyone will but i'd still rather my kids focus on other things). I didn't have FACS (the old home ec) or tech ed and still managed to learn that stuff throughout life. Use that time to get all the more important work done that can't be finished in class and needs to be sent home.

I agree with much of what you have said.
I think it's interesting what people think is or isn't an important subject though and there would be a lot of disagreement.
Personally I think PE is vital, and that it helps children concentrate better for the rest of the school day.
I think that the reduction in home economics classes in the last decade has shown in a recent study that showed (and I can't remember the exact figures) that a large percentage of college aged students can't boil an egg, sew in a button on or change a tire.

 

[Madame]

For me personally 'We've always done it that way' usually is one of my huge soap-boxes and I hate it. Where it applies here is that the OP claims they didn't know, weren't informed, couldn't possibly have expected that it would happen. But it's always been done that way so why wouldn't they expect it to happen?

Much as I hated homework and out of school projects etc, it is not possible to do everything that is required to learn inside the school hours. Students read at different speeds and levels, so if English or History classes were spent reading the books/materials, then there would be no time to discuss and learn. Same with many other things. OMGosh if I had to read in class I would have been bored to tears. I would have finished the books days and hours ahead of many of my classmates. In fact in one class where we were assigned to continue reading our novel I remember I was finished the book and actually fell asleep and woke to the teacher having taken all my stuff to see how long it would take for me to wake and notice.

People learn in a myriad of ways, and over differing time scales. Unless you want to increase the school hours by another couple of hours per day, then it's just not possible. Curriculums are already cutting out things because there aren't enough hours in the day. I was horrified to go back home to Canada earlier this year (I now live in the UK) to find that they aren't teaching WRITING - as in cursive, as in 'joined up writing'. I know that the world is reliant on computers and tablets, however if you don't learn it who is going to be able to read it 20 years down the road? They're not even taught to sign a name as a signature. Well, gee printing a name could be even more easily forged than any written signature. And their hours are an hour less than when I was in school.

So while I despise the excuse of 'we've always done it that way' when there's no actual reason given for why it's been done and is worth continuing, it doesn't always mean that it's the wrong thing to do. Change just for the sake of change is equally as dangerous and unjustified.

Teaching cursive is school dependent. My DD learned last year in gr 3 & by the end of the school year her teacher expected every written assignment to be completed in cursive. This is a French Catholic board in ON.

OTOH my instruction in cursive in the early 80s was spotty at best. DD's cursive far surpasses my own half printing, half cursive.

 

[sam_gordon]

I remember (early to mid 80's) an entire 9 week course on typing. I wish they'd bring that back.

 

[Dentam]

I remember (early to mid 80's) an entire 9 week course on typing. I wish they'd bring that back.

I took keyboarding and a couple of other computer classes (MS word and Excel, I think) in high school and I agree, they were extremely helpful and I would consider them to be college/life prep classes. I can't imagine going into college without having those classes under my belt.

 

[indimom]

I remember (early to mid 80's) an entire 9 week course on typing. I wish they'd bring that back.

My kids started learning to type in gradeschool. It wasn't a class, per se, but they had a program (designed like a game) that they could use during free time in their classes. They both were typing fluidly long before middle school. I just assumed all schools were teaching typing.

My kids got a very abbreviated handwriting lesson in about 3rd grade, but the teachers never forced them to complete assignments in cursive, so their handwriting is rudimentary at best. Luckily they can "read" cursive handwriting.

 

[Dentam]

My kids started learning to type in gradeschool. It wasn't a class, per se, but they had a program (designed like a game) that they could use during free time in their classes. They both were typing fluidly long before middle school. I just assumed all schools were teaching typing.

Yeah, I was thinking after I responded that kids these days know how to use smart phones at the age of 3 and can probably type in grade school. Man, I feel old.

 

[msjprincess]

I remember (early to mid 80's) an entire 9 week course on typing. I wish they'd bring that back.

Our district started a keyboarding class last year. All of the kids in middle school will take one semester.

 

[gwynne]

I remember (early to mid 80's) an entire 9 week course on typing. I wish they'd bring that back.

I didn't realize it at the time, but my typing class was one of the most useful classes I ever took. I use touch typing skills most every day.

 

[Jaime4004]

I agree with much of what you have said.
I think it's interesting what people think is or isn't an important subject though and there would be a lot of disagreement.
Personally I think PE is vital, and that it helps children concentrate better for the rest of the school day.
I think that the reduction in home economics classes in the last decade has shown in a recent study that showed (and I can't remember the exact figures) that a large percentage of college aged students can't boil an egg, sew in a button on or change a tire.

I do think that PE is important for kids who otherwise wouldn't get exercise. Just not mine, as they're already in gymnastics a million hours/week. For them, that time could be spent on more useful things. I get that you can't please everyone also. Make it an elective, that would be awesome. But not knowing the home ec stuff, I look at that as a parenting fail... Though personally, I can't change a tire, I've been paying for AAA since I could drive instead. They are really good at changing tires.

 

[Jaime4004]

I took keyboarding and a couple of other computer classes (MS word and Excel, I think) in high school and I agree, they were extremely helpful and I would consider them to be college/life prep classes. I can't imagine going into college without having those classes under my belt.

My DD take took a one semester computer class in middle school last year and it was her favorite class. I'm amazed at the things she learned. Way more than I know! Definitely helps with other classes since so many projects and other things are done on computer now.

 

[kamik86]

The thing with school curriculums is for every person that finds a class stupid and unneeded another kid wouldn't get it at all if they didn't offer the class.

One family may be highly active and involved in sports. They think PE in class is uneeded and would rather have time for their preferred sports outside of class. However neither parent can cook and they tend to order food or eat things that don't really have to be prepped much (pasta, hamburger helper, etc) or order out.

Another family mom stays at home, kids were taught to cook and sew but parents aren't into sports at all so the kids were never exposed to it. Maybe they would really like and be good at soccer, but they have never tried and probably wouldnt unless a gym class showed them.

The only way to make it useful for everyone would be to have classes that you could pick from as electives and then the core classes everyone had to take. Of course then parents would have to get involved in helping the kids pick and making sure they got everything they needed. Espeically since the kids that love sports would probably WANT to take gym because they are good at that and not want to have to learn to cook.

As for projects I think some classes they are vital. Computer Science courses in college is an example. Frankly you can't tell from a test if a kid can program, not a written one anyway. A computer test can do some things like maintenance and debugging tasks. However at the end of the day you also have to be able to come up with and structure a program and projects are the best way to do that.

Other classes there are only projects to help the kids sthat don't test well, because they really aren't necessary. They just help if your not as interested and need a boost to your grade. In those subjects maybe they should be extra credit.