help on buying first DSLR

[kevgraub]

Up to this point, we have always just used a point and shoot camera, and although the pictures are alright, we would like to get better pictures and not deal with the delay that comes with a point and shoot (kids are in sports, and it is really not even worth tying to take their pictures during the game with a point and shoot).

Given the fact this is our first venture into the slr world (at least since photography class in middle school), at first a lot of our pictures will undoubtedly be taken in auto mode.

However, I would like to start learning/experimenting more with the camera settings and be able to take higher quality pictures eventually. With that in mind, I don't really want to go with a camera that I'm going to be disappointed with in a couple of years once I get better at taking pictures with auto mode turned off, but I don't really need a top of the line slr either.

Two that I have been looking at and have tried out at our local photography shop are the Canon XSi and the Olympus E520. The cost of the Olympus is quite a bit less than the Canon.

Any advice on either of these two cameras, or on any others?

 

[Angrypenguin]

First and foremost, welcome to the world of DSLR! It's really a lot of fun experimenting and learning to get the best out of your shots.

Now saying that, I'm sure I'll echo a lot of people when I say that you shouldn't think of buying a DSLR as buying a camera, but purchasing into a "system." The camera body is only a small portion of the overall system; you need to research everything that's part of it, including lenses, flashes, 3rd party lenses, accessories, etc.

As you get better, one thing to consider heavily is the line up of lenses. I picked Canon because they have a huge line up of high quality lenses, not to mention they're well supported by the third party lens makers (tamron, sigma, tokina) so you have a lot of versatility. Not to mention you'll upgrade your camera eventually, and you'll want to reuse all your lenses/flashes/whatever else you acquire.

Pick whichever camera you feel comfortable with! Keep in mind though the initial cost differences in cameras is negligible compared to what you may purchase to support the camera over the years to come!

Have fun!

 

[kevgraub]

Thanks. You know, that had actually entered my mind at one point when I was considering things (which may have been what steered me to the Canon to begin with), but kind of left it recently.

Really, the only major difference between the two camera's that I could see right now (other than the future lense options) is that the Canon has the IS built into the lense, while the Olympus has it built into the camera itself. That left me with 2 questions:

Does one form of stabilization work better than the other?
Do most of the lenses I would buy for my Canon have the stabilization built into them, or am I going to be frustrated finding the lense I want without pay a bunch more for that added feature?

 

[Angrypenguin]

Thanks. You know, that had actually entered my mind at one point when I was considering things (which may have been what steered me to the Canon to begin with), but kind of left it recently.

Really, the only major difference between the two camera's that I could see right now (other than the future lense options) is that the Canon has the IS built into the lense, while the Olympus has it built into the camera itself. That left me with 2 questions:

Does one form of stabilization work better than the other?
Do most of the lenses I would buy for my Canon have the stabilization built into them, or am I going to be frustrated finding the lense I want without pay a bunch more for that added feature?

I can't speak for Olympus, but I know Canon's IS is very well thought of and considered to be among the best. According to SLRgear, I believe it's around 3 stops worth with real world tests.

It's true that IS does jack up the price of lenses. It seems that all of Canon's newer lenses have IS, so that might be the only option in years to come. I'm assuming that the price point of the technology will sort of even itself out over time.

I know there are some happy Olympus shooters here, but Canon and Nikon each own about 40% of the DSLR market for a reason, and that's mainly the system of lenses that they provide. I personally have been happy with Canon, but that's just me.

Also to consider: low-light ISO performance (how much noise is there when you push it higher to the 800/1600 range?) Does the camera feel comfortable in your hand? How easy is it to navigate menus? I'd recommend checking out dpreview.com and reading about your potential cameras.

Researching is half the fun!

 

[kevgraub]

Thanks again. I've actually been doing a lot of research online and have enjoyed learning about the DSLR's already. The problem I seem to be finding is bad reviews about cameras. It seems like just about every review I read about ever camera is generally very positive, with just a few drawbacks that either (1) are not that big of a deal for me, or (2) make absolutely no sense to me as an amateur.

I'll keep looking. My gut is really leaning toward the Canon at this time. Maybe its because I used to be a big Andre Agassi fan (just kidding, kind of). I would much rather spend a couple hundred extra now, than regret my purchase in two years.

 

[Bell30012]

I was all set to buy the D-40 and slowly break into the DSLR camera world when the camera store employee was showing another customer a Sony A350. The more he talked, the more I wanted it. I've been using it for about a month and absolutely love the camera.

Having a live view LCD is great but the 14 mega-pixel is awesome!

 

[waytoomanywebkinz]

I am the new owner of a Canon XSI - and I love it!

I will say - be sure to look online for the best price - I checked about 8-10 different places (amazon, adorama, abes of main, b&h, best buy, etc) and I found that online the price was around 679 with the kit lens (versus the box stores charging 799) - and then if I ordered it from an online place that didn't have a store in South Carolina I didn't have to pay sales tax either!

I went with Adorama, simply because -
a)they carried the Crumpler bags and I wanted to buy everything all together
b)they were in NJ so they were a faster delivery time via UPS than Abes of Maine and I wanted it quickly!

I was very pleased! Ordered the items around 5:40 pm on Tuesday evening - they were shipped out on Wednesday and I received them around 1 pm on Friday. NJ to SC. And the shipping said 7-10 business days (for the free shipping) and NO I did not pay the 7-10 bucks to upgrade to 2-3 days. I saw where their website said they ship everything out the next day and I consulted a UPS Ground Time in Transit map and saw that it was 2 days to go from NJ to SC.

I figure with the cheaper price and no sales tax - I saved 175 bucks by not going with Best Buy or Staples. that gave me the extra cash to buy the 50 mm and a cute Crumpler bag... LOL

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Just wanted to put in a plug for the Nikon D90. It has the same sensor as the D300 and is quite a bit cheaper. It's great at high ISO. With Nikon, VR is built in the lenses.

 

[Angrypenguin]

Hey kevgraub,

I was looking over the specs of the Olympus, and I think a more accurate comparison would be the Olympus e520 vs. the canon XS. They match similarly in specs and price (509 v. 519 on Amazon.)

The XSI has the bigger LCD, 12 megapixels, and 9 autofocus points (the XS has 7 autofocus points, the E520 has 3).

Anyways, let us know what you decide on!

 

[crazy_ciara]

Hey, my first DSLR was and still is the Canon 1000D, its the lowest price model in the Canon range. Its 10mpx and everything is perfect about it. Its a brilliant canon and as mentioned before it supports all 3rd party lens. I think i bought it for £325 inclusing lens, tripod and case from Jessops. I really recommend a Canon!

 

[ukcatfan]

Really, the only major difference between the two camera's that I could see right now (other than the future lense options) is that the Canon has the IS built into the lense, while the Olympus has it built into the camera itself. That left me with 2 questions:

Does one form of stabilization work better than the other?
Do most of the lenses I would buy for my Canon have the stabilization built into them, or am I going to be frustrated finding the lense I want without pay a bunch more for that added feature?

In real world use, you probably would not notice a difference in the different types of IS. In theory, in body is supposed to work better at short focal lengths and in lens is supposed to work better at long focal lengths. The price is without a doubt an issue. With in body, you have it on all lenses. For in lens, it can sometimes add hundreds to the cost of each lens. On the low end, you will not notice the cost as much, but if you ever upgrade to better lenses, it could even mean the difference between $1,000 and $1,200 (or more). There are also lenses where there is no IS even available, such as prime lenses (locked focal length, no zoom). Primes are great for low light and having IS with it is even better in many cases. FWIW Pentax, Sony, Samsung, and Oly offer in body IS where Canon and Nikon are only in lens.

Another big difference in the Oly and Canon is the system's crop factor. On Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and Sony you have around a 1.5x-1.6x factor. This means that whatever the focal length of the lens actually is, you multiply by that factor to get the effective focal length. The Oly is a 2x. That gives you a little more focal length at the long end, but makes it more difficult to go really wide if you ever want that type of lens. It also means that the Oly has less control over the depth of field (in focus area). That can make it more difficult to get the blurred background you might want with an Oly.

Going in fresh like you are, you should consider all brands. There is also Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Samsung, etc. to consider. You should also put a very strong consideration to how they actually feel in your hands. Too many people just decide by specs and reviews and then are not 100% happy down the road.

 

[bob100]

Two that I have been looking at and have tried out at our local photography shop are the Canon XSi and the Olympus E520. The cost of the Olympus is quite a bit less than the Canon.
Any advice on either of these two cameras, or on any others?

I've been very satisfied with the Canon XSi that I bought in January. There are advantages/disadvantages with different DSLR models but they all allow you to go beyond auto mode with improved pics.
it's good to shop locally but be sure to check prices online with sites like B&H and Adorama.

 

[Hoan & Poopie]

I had an E510 at one time and I thought it was a great camera. Only got rid of it because I already owned Nikon gear and thought it was silly to begin collecting lenses for another brand.

Even though it's 'old' in digital years, I still think the D40 is a great camera and not bad in low light with a 1.8 or 1.4 lens. I have one as well as a D300 and D3 and I still wont sell the D40.

 

[zackiedawg]

Well to start, I'll summarize by saying what everyone above has said is true - their cameras are great cameras. Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony...all great DSLRs. And the not-yet-mentioned Pentax too. All great. Nobody here tells a lie!

That's because all of the DSLRs today are great...so don't bother with the brand-name limitations. Canon and Nikon are the best sellers because they have been in the SLR (film) business for decades, and therefore built up a long legacy of lenses and buyers. Those converting to digital who already have Canon or Nikon lenses will naturally buy into the digital system which allows them to keep using their lenses. Olympus, Pentax, and Minolta were much smaller sellers in film SLR, and therefore less legacy buyers. Don't for a moment think that Canon and Nikon are the top sellers because they are better than any of the other brands - they're all quite good, and all have lower range and upper range models which run the gamut from pretty darn good to excellent.

For someone coming over to a DSLR who does not already have lenses to match with, the decision is a little harder because all DSLR systems are open to shop. And with all being good systems, the decision gets tough! Rest assured though that you can't go wrong.

First and foremost is to try out all the cameras in hand. Feel, grip, control location, ease of use, familiarity, and comfort are very important with a large camera. Sometimes, you may just find that one design really fits you well, or feels more intuitive. You can limit the brands to look at if you want...but you're only limiting your own chances to find the most perfect camera for you...so I'd strongly recommend not voiding out any brand without first trying them out. And beware sales representatives at camera stores - you're best to simply ignore every word that comes out of their mouth initially...chances are they already support a brand they personally use, or don't really know much about some brands so put their support behind the best seller or what they know, or sometimes they actually can get a spiff or bonus for selling or pushing a particular brand. They're not bad people - they're just making a living...but initially at least, best to just keep your mind open to all brands before narrowing the selection to those you like the most.

Some features do count for something. Live View may be a feature you want sometimes - and most manufacturers offer it, but in slightly different styles. Nikon and Canon's live view offerings tend to be better for closeup and macro work, as they can zoom during shooting to see fine details. Olympus offers a hybrid system that can flip both ways. And Sony's system is best for normal shooting use as it is the easiest to switch on and does not slow the camera's shutter speed. All different approaches, with different advantages.

Also, the afformentioned stability. In body versus in lens. It seems when it comes down to tests, measuring every possible parameter to the smallest measurement, in-lens IS is slightly more effective. In real-world use, most people would probably never really notice - both are extremely effective in providing at least 1-2 stops advantage in shooting handheld for the general shooter. In-body stabilization does have an advantage in allowing older, used lenses to still have the advantage of stabilization - since it works with any and all lenses. And that would include some of the prime lenses and wide zooms that otherwise are not available with stabilization in-lens. That can make lens buying a little cheaper, if you want to buy used lenses.

High ISO is not too big a difference for most people, as most people don't shoot at ISO1600 and up. All DSLRs are vastly superior to P&S cameras, so coming from those, you'll definitely be gaining capabilities even with the lowliest DSLR. As you get past entry-level DSLRs and into the slightly more expensive models, you start to see Nikon's models rise to the top of high-ISO performance, with Canon just a bit behind...and the others trailing a little farther back. But at the entry-level, the field is basically level. And again...you need to decide just how much you think you'll use that extreme high ISO range when deciding whether to look at the more expensive mid-range models rather than entry level. If a heavy majority of your photography won't ever explore those ranges, you may be able to do just fine with the entry level models and save alot of money.

Don't worry about lens quality - all manufacturers offer some cheaper decent lenses to start off, and some seriously nice glass to upgrade to if you ever want to move up. Be it Olympus' Zuiko glass, Sony's G or Carl Zeiss glass, Canon's L-glass, Nikon's pro-range lenses, or Pentax's DA* glass...they all have expensive, high quality lenses in their range when you want to get serious.

Hope that helps level the playing field for you!

 

[Angrypenguin]

Well to start, I'll summarize by saying what everyone above has said is true - their cameras are great cameras. Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony...all great DSLRs. And the not-yet-mentioned Pentax too. All great. Nobody here tells a lie!

That's because all of the DSLRs today are great...so don't bother with the brand-name limitations. Canon and Nikon are the best sellers because they have been in the SLR (film) business for decades, and therefore built up a long legacy of lenses and buyers. Those converting to digital who already have Canon or Nikon lenses will naturally buy into the digital system which allows them to keep using their lenses. Olympus, Pentax, and Minolta were much smaller sellers in film SLR, and therefore less legacy buyers. Don't for a moment think that Canon and Nikon are the top sellers because they are better than any of the other brands - they're all quite good, and all have lower range and upper range models which run the gamut from pretty darn good to excellent.

For someone coming over to a DSLR who does not already have lenses to match with, the decision is a little harder because all DSLR systems are open to shop. And with all being good systems, the decision gets tough! Rest assured though that you can't go wrong.

First and foremost is to try out all the cameras in hand. Feel, grip, control location, ease of use, familiarity, and comfort are very important with a large camera. Sometimes, you may just find that one design really fits you well, or feels more intuitive. You can limit the brands to look at if you want...but you're only limiting your own chances to find the most perfect camera for you...so I'd strongly recommend not voiding out any brand without first trying them out. And beware sales representatives at camera stores - you're best to simply ignore every word that comes out of their mouth initially...chances are they already support a brand they personally use, or don't really know much about some brands so put their support behind the best seller or what they know, or sometimes they actually can get a spiff or bonus for selling or pushing a particular brand. They're not bad people - they're just making a living...but initially at least, best to just keep your mind open to all brands before narrowing the selection to those you like the most.

Some features do count for something. Live View may be a feature you want sometimes - and most manufacturers offer it, but in slightly different styles. Nikon and Canon's live view offerings tend to be better for closeup and macro work, as they can zoom during shooting to see fine details. Olympus offers a hybrid system that can flip both ways. And Sony's system is best for normal shooting use as it is the easiest to switch on and does not slow the camera's shutter speed. All different approaches, with different advantages.

Also, the afformentioned stability. In body versus in lens. It seems when it comes down to tests, measuring every possible parameter to the smallest measurement, in-lens IS is slightly more effective. In real-world use, most people would probably never really notice - both are extremely effective in providing at least 1-2 stops advantage in shooting handheld for the general shooter. In-body stabilization does have an advantage in allowing older, used lenses to still have the advantage of stabilization - since it works with any and all lenses. And that would include some of the prime lenses and wide zooms that otherwise are not available with stabilization in-lens. That can make lens buying a little cheaper, if you want to buy used lenses.

High ISO is not too big a difference for most people, as most people don't shoot at ISO1600 and up. All DSLRs are vastly superior to P&S cameras, so coming from those, you'll definitely be gaining capabilities even with the lowliest DSLR. As you get past entry-level DSLRs and into the slightly more expensive models, you start to see Nikon's models rise to the top of high-ISO performance, with Canon just a bit behind...and the others trailing a little farther back. But at the entry-level, the field is basically level. And again...you need to decide just how much you think you'll use that extreme high ISO range when deciding whether to look at the more expensive mid-range models rather than entry level. If a heavy majority of your photography won't ever explore those ranges, you may be able to do just fine with the entry level models and save alot of money.

Don't worry about lens quality - all manufacturers offer some cheaper decent lenses to start off, and some seriously nice glass to upgrade to if you ever want to move up. Be it Olympus' Zuiko glass, Sony's G or Carl Zeiss glass, Canon's L-glass, Nikon's pro-range lenses, or Pentax's DA* glass...they all have expensive, high quality lenses in their range when you want to get serious.

Hope that helps level the playing field for you!

Great post and very informative!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Well I might as well weigh in here.

First, Justin, that was a great post.

kevgraub, often people shy away from these types of threads because the "Brand Wars" thing can get quite

and discouraging, especially for users of brands that are less popular than the big two.

To start, the XSi is obviously a great camera and you can't go wrong in buying one.

Now, here's the lowdown IMO on the Olympus. I'm going to be honest, if you buy it you need to be confident about it in your own head, as it's really easy in the first year or so to question whether you made the right choice when your pictures aren't coming out so hot. But much of it, no matter what camera you buy, is going to be that you as a newbie are going to be on a learning curve for a while, and kit lenses won't cut it in every situation.

I follow Olympus forums elsewhere and have seen it many times. Dump the camera for a "better" one when pictures aren't coming out right. Even when those same pictures are posted and critiqued and clearly there's user error, because those people have it in their mind they bought a second rate camera, they "jump ship" instead of just putting time and effort into perfecting their technique. (There was a Jumping Ship thread about this very thing here several weeks ago. Most people felt that whatever brand you go with, skill level is a huge part of it. And simply put, it just takes time to get good at it.) Of course, there are some users who really do need more, or different, and those people sell off their equipment and go with whatever better suits them once they know what that actually is. (And that can happen with any brand.) It's just very hard to know for sure at the beginning when it's all new.

A year ago I was also a competely new user with no real brand affiliation and after weighing my options for months, went with the Oly E-510. As I'm now at the point of buying better glass, I've made the committment to stay with Olympus. There's lots I love about them. I admit that over the past year, though, there were times that I, too, questioned my choice. (It's hard not to when most of the dSLR shooting world advocates either Canon or Nikon.) But I kept going back to the Oly website, flikr and user forums and looking at some of the amazing pictures shot by the Oly masters. I knew that the camera was capable, it was just me that needed to get up to snuff. (I think Gdad also unwittingly hammered this point home to so many of us a few weeks ago with his point and shoot thread.) So that's where I've put my energies > into learning to use the camera I absolutely love and not into fretting over anything else. At some point when I max out, I will hand off my 510 to my son and make the leap to the Oly professional model, whatever that is when the time comes. As of right now, though, I'm nowhere ready for that. I'm just concentrating on improving my skills and learning to use my camera to its fullest.

No question whatsoever that there are great cameras within every brand (and that they all have some limitations), and that you will, with time and practice, be able to take amazing photographs with whatever you buy. The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it. Research what everyone's offering, see what's comfortable to you - literally and figuratively - and go with that. Good luck to you in your search!

 

[gokenin]

Those converting to digital who already have Canon or Nikon lenses will naturally buy into the digital system which allows them to keep using their lenses. Olympus, Pentax, and Minolta were much smaller sellers in film SLR, and therefore less legacy buyers.

Not meaning to start an arguement but this statement is incorrect. Canon came out with its first film SLR in the early 1970's, Nikon came out in the early 1980's. Pentax introduced its first SLR in the 1950's. The comment about legacy glass is also incorrect you can use any lens Pentax has ever made with a M42 adaptor allowing the use of screwmount lens on modern DSLR's. No other company has this level of len as most have changed the mount used on their cameras more than Pentax has.

 

[zackiedawg]

Not meaning to start an arguement but this statement is incorrect. Canon came out with its first film SLR in the early 1970's, Nikon came out in the early 1980's. Pentax introduced its first SLR in the 1950's. The comment about legacy glass is also incorrect you can use any lens Pentax has ever made with a M42 adaptor allowing the use of screwmount lens on modern DSLR's. No other company has this level of len as most have changed the mount used on their cameras more than Pentax has.

No problem...though I don't think the original statement is incorrect, since Canon does have more lenses overall in it's arsenal than Pentax does, as you go into the pro range. Believe me, I've got nothing against Pentax - I started with an ME Super in 1977 which I still have today, with 3 lenses. But I don't think even Pentax fans can argue that for the past 30 years or so, Nikon have been a fairly large player with a huge lens selection and decent pro support, and Canon has flat dominated the scene with a vast collection of lenses throughout the pro range and huge pro support which basically owns the pro market. And when it comes to aftermarket support, virtually all lens manufacturers make Canon and Nikon variants of their lenses, whereas it is much harder to find Pentax, Oly, and Minolta mounts on some of those aftermarket lenses.

My statement was merely that Pentax, Olympus, and Minolta didn't have as many SLR users ready to convert to DSLR in the early 2000's as did Nikon and Canon, which gave those two an automatic head start in sales of DSLRs. Bigger market share, more people with lenses already in hand, therefore more DSLR sales went their way. Not because they were any better...just because more people had them.

I don't own a Nikon or Canon DSLR - my film camera was a Pentax, and my digital is a Sony/Minolta. So believe me, I support the smaller players! But no question...they ARE smaller players.

 

[boBQuincy]

Not meaning to start an arguement but this statement is incorrect. Canon came out with its first film SLR in the early 1970's, Nikon came out in the early 1980's. Pentax introduced its first SLR in the 1950's. The comment about legacy glass is also incorrect you can use any lens Pentax has ever made with a M42 adaptor allowing the use of screwmount lens on modern DSLR's. No other company has this level of len as most have changed the mount used on their cameras more than Pentax has.

Nikon introduced their groundbreaking F series SLR in 1959, Canon followed in 1971. None of this matters much to someone looking for a SLR today except... I prefer those two brands because I expect they will be in the camera/lens business for at least my lifetime. Some of the smaller players may exit the business due to economic conditions and low market share, as some have before.

It is true that C and N have changed lens mounts but for C that was in 1987 and although it is fun to play with old manual focus lenses I am not really that interested in a 22+ year old lens.
But I still have my Minolta SRT-101 and a few lenses...

 

[gokenin]

ok my bad about the time lines there. I agree this is a little off topic and I also agree that in the US Canon and Nikon have the largest market shares and you will be able to find them easier. You should however not be scared away from looking at all the other camera lines because of that. The OP should get out and try as many diffrent kinds and models they can before simply taking any of our advice on which one to get.