Has The Me Too Movement Created A Culture That Says Everyone Who Claims Abuse Is Telling The Truth

[smiths02]

I agree mostly with DLgal

I also tend to believe accusers when there are many. I also tend to believe the accuser when the accused continues to, against all advice, engage in peripheral behaviors that are congruent with grooming children.

ETA: It doesn't just have to be grooming children. Another example would be Bill Cosby or Weinstein who over years and years had all these private meetings in hotel rooms and houses with women who wanted stardom.

 

[DopeyDame]

ok, I just have to write this post, I just need to put this question out there.

This is mainly in relation to high profile famous people who are being accused of abuse. I know that there are two sides to every story. Some alleged abuse has been proven true, sometimes in a criminal court and sometimes through irrefutable evidence.

But for others, abuse has been alleged, the person has gone through trial by media, they have lost work and their reputation has been damaged. Then suddenly the truth is revealed, that the alleged abuse did not happen, there is irrefutable evidence that the alleged victim is lying.

Many people seem to think that the me too movement gives them a free pass to allege abuse, without any thought to the consequences. Some victims support charities take this alleged abuse at face value, without investigating the alleged victim or the alleged abuser.

And when victim support charities support an alleged victim, well then it must be true and public opinion turns against the alleged abuser

And then the me too movement throws their support behind an alleged victim, well then it must be true and public opinion turns against the alleged abuser.

But what if the alleged victim is lying, what if the me too movement are using their power to deliberately ruin the reputation of an innocent person??

I know people will have opinions on this, I know people will disagree with me, but I just had to write this and get it off my chest.

Yes, I do think the me too movement has (finally!) created an environment where victims are - at least initially - believed. As they should be. When you start from a position of believing a victim, that doesn't mean that you automatically believe a crime was committed, but that you give the potential victim the benefit of the doubt and actually conduct a full investigation. You take the victim seriously and listen carefully to what they say and follow up on any information they provide. You don't assume that they did something wrong (like drinking or wearing the "wrong" clothes.) Sometimes - like in the Jusie Smollet case - when you do take the victim seriously at first, and you conduct a real investigation, it turns out that the victim is in fact the criminal. But if you start from assuming that the victim is lying in the beginning, a true investigation never even stands a chance.

Victims have almost *no* benefit in coming forward. They are likely to be receive horrible abuse on social media and in their personal lives, they very well may face death threats and all sorts of other things. In a professional space, they may lose job opportunities for ever. On the other hand, abusers have every reason in the world to deny that the abuse happened.

I'm not at all saying that every allegation is true, but I am glad that the default is trending towards believing the victim instead of not believing.

 

[DopeyDame]

IMO the movement has gone too far and has created a culture of victims when I thought the point was for women to show their strength and resiliency.
Now everyone is a precious snowflake.
It makes me confused as to how it got tied into a feminist movement.

Huh? You can be strong and resilient and still, sadly, be raped or abused. I'm unclear how one thing has to do for another.

 

[DopeyDame]

but that wont make world wide headlines, that wont get him back the lost reputation, that wont get him back the lost jobs.

For real? Jusie Smollet's accusations made world wide headlines, and then the falsification absolutely made world wide headlines. There was no way to avoid it. And he lost his job, so it's not like he got away scott free.

 

[cabanafrau]

While it is vitally important to consider that MeToo taken too far can create an instant conviction in the public eye, the other side of the coin is to understand what it is that average, everyday, run of the mill accusers not in the public eye face when taking their allegations through the legal system. In a courtroom the law protects the accused in many ways that simultaneously allow every nook and cranny of an accuser's life to be stripped bare, with every nook and cranny explored under a microscope. The imbalance is so extreme and allows for such an excruciatingly painful dragging of a victim in a way that seems very far from justice IMO.

 

[DopeyDame]

If you haven't already, I'd really encourage everyone to listen to the podcast Believed. It's about Larry Nassar and how he got away with it for so long and how he was finally convicted. It's incredibly well done, and incredibly hard to hear at times. But it's a very informative example of how easy it is for an abuser to get away with stuff because he's a good guy and everyone loves him and he's an upstanding member of the community. And it's heart breaking to hear the girls - over decades - not be believed.

 

[Wishing on a star]

If the Michael Jackson accusations are a factor here....
Just saw this.
WOW.
www.yahoo.com/entertainment/video-resurfaces-michael-jackson-shopping-wedding-rings-boy-005106633.html

Neither video even seemed to be interested in the 'small boy' out alone with Jackson. Nobody even raised an eyebrow about that.
And, in the second video, the clerk mentioned how the boy was the one picking out the rings he liked.

 

[BadPinkTink]

While it is vitally important to consider that MeToo taken too far can create an instant conviction in the public eye, the other side of the coin is to understand what it is that average, everyday, run of the mill accusers not in the public eye face when taking their allegations through the legal system. In a courtroom the law protects the accused in many ways that simultaneously allow every nook and cranny of an accuser's life to be stripped bare, with every nook and cranny explored under a microscope. The imbalance is so extreme and allows for such an excruciatingly painful dragging of a victim in a way that seems very far from justice IMO.

I totally agree
There was a high profile court case here in Ireland, where sports players were accused of rape. The victim had her underwear shown in court as evidence and the sports players legal team made a big issue out of the type and the fact that what she was wearing meant she was asking for it. After following the court updates, the general public opinion was that she was indeed raped but the sports players legal team won the case and the sports players were acquitted.

 

[Queen of the WDW Scene]

Huh? You can be strong and resilient and still, sadly, be raped or abused. I'm unclear how one thing has to do for another.

In the beginning it was supposed to empower women but IMO over time it has had the opposite effect.
This is just how I feel. You can respectfully disagree if you'd like.

 

[DopeyDame]

In the beginning it was supposed to empower women but IMO over time it has had the opposite effect.
This is just how I feel. You can respectfully disagree if you'd like.

I don't know how to agree or disagree, because I still don't understand what you're trying to say. What is "it" that was supposed to empower women, and what is the "opposite effect" that "it has had?
As I said, being strong and resilient doesn't make you immune from abuse, so can you help me understand the connection? Or do you think that no strong and resilient women have ever been abused?

 

[Queen of the WDW Scene]

I don't know how to agree or disagree, because I still don't understand what you're trying to say. What is "it" that was supposed to empower women, and what is the "opposite effect" that "it has had?
As I said, being strong and resilient doesn't make you immune from abuse, so can you help me understand the connection? Or do you think that no strong and resilient women have ever been abused?

Clearly this interaction is going nowhere fast so I respectfully decline to have further discussion.

 

[GreatLakes]

No one has to prove their innocence, that isn't where the burden lies. You are innocent until proven guilty and that is for the courts to do, not the media.

If anyone doesn't let the courts do their job, either because they don't report, don't cooperate, or pay off accusers before trial then you can't have any actual resolution, only speculation and no actual legal action should be taken on speculation alone.

I still find it funny that the movement to expose sexual abuse was named "pound me too". Makes me laugh every time I see #metoo

 

[BadPinkTink]

I don't know how to agree or disagree, because I still don't understand what you're trying to say. What is "it" that was supposed to empower women, and what is the "opposite effect" that "it has had?
As I said, being strong and resilient doesn't make you immune from abuse, so can you help me understand the connection? Or do you think that no strong and resilient women have ever been abused?

it = the me too movement
the movement at the start was about women saying yes that has happened to me too, I was sexually abused / sexually assaulted in the work place and I never reported it / never spoke about it , etc etc

the opposite affect the movement has had is that, many feel that victims can allege anything and they are applauded and the alleged abuse is not questioned. Many feel that the movement is now being used to further specific agendas, that alleged victims are lying about abuse in order to take revenge or blackmail etc their alleged abuser. Some alleged victims have a financial motive behind their use of the me too movement

 

[cabanafrau]

I totally agree
There was a high profile court case here in Ireland, where sports players were accused of rape. The victim had her underwear shown in court as evidence and the sports players legal team made a big issue out of the type and the fact that what she was wearing meant she was asking for it. After following the court updates, the general public opinion was that she was indeed raped but the sports players legal team won the case and the sports players were acquitted.

I don't find that in the least surprising. Honestly, having underwear displayed and being shamed for it isn't even a blip on the radar compared to what I was referring to.

In the U.S. legal system there are (rightfully)strong protections in place to assure that a defendant is tried under an assumption of innocence until proven guilty. There are rules to insure this blanket of protection doesn't get stomped on in a variety of ways. If I were a defendant I could have been convicted 3 times in the past for groping random people in public -- tried, convicted, served my sentences and released back into society. I was caught and convicted each time on the basis of surveillance video catching me in the act. I could now be on trial for sexually assaulting someone in the gym showers at the fitness center. This case rises and falls on the idea of he said/she said because there are no cameras in the shower. Under rule 404b the jury is prevented from learning about my prior convictions. Any and every detail of my accuser's past is fair game for my attorney to present to the jury. Past boyfriend with a grudge can come in and tell the jury all about how she cheated on him numerous times, including with his roommate and even his own brother. Video of her drunk, partying and showing lots of skin on spring break back in college is very likely able to be shown to the jury. Anything my defense team can get their hands on to impugn the character of my accuser is fair game. As the accused I get plenty of blankets to keep my character under wraps.

I've seen a case of stepfather molested stepdaughter and mom was so far in denial she actually provided information to the defense to subpoena in her daughter's former teachers so that they could testify about her lack of truthfulness when she didn't complete her homework assignments. We're talking about a girl in middle school being labeled as someone dishonest and not to be believed because she gave lame excuses when her report on volcanoes or the three branches of the U.S. federal government was late.

 

[luvsJack]

While it is vitally important to consider that MeToo taken too far can create an instant conviction in the public eye, the other side of the coin is to understand what it is that average, everyday, run of the mill accusers not in the public eye face when taking their allegations through the legal system. In a courtroom the law protects the accused in many ways that simultaneously allow every nook and cranny of an accuser's life to be stripped bare, with every nook and cranny explored under a microscope. The imbalance is so extreme and allows for such an excruciatingly painful dragging of a victim in a way that seems very far from justice IMO.

Do the rape shield laws not protect them from this? If not, then it should. I mean the law should protect one side as well as the other.

It’s such a hard thing. I never want to see someone’s life ruined by false allegations but on the other hand, don’t want the victims to be afraid to come forward. To think a victim is afraid of not being believed is heartbreaking.

Honestly victims that are in the public eye can be dragged through the mud so much that it makes one wonder why anyone would ever make a false allegations and yet they do.

 

[cabanafrau]

I still find it funny that the movement to expose sexual abuse was named "pound me too". Makes me laugh every time I see #metoo

Wonder how much you'll feel like laughing if it happens to someone you love. It's so prevalent it's more likely than not to be the case.

 

[GreatLakes]

Wonder how much you'll feel like laughing if it happens to someone you love. It's so prevalent it's more likely than not to be the case.

I'm laughing at the ironic name they chose, not the cases it exposed.

 

[LSUmiss]

The accusers have nothing to gain, so I tend to believe them, but look at the evidence as well. I think that's a rational way to evaluate such cases.

And this type of thing has been pervasive & accepted for DECADES. I think a lot of ppl have a hard time believing it when it’s so many, but I think that’s b/c it has been that pervasive. I’m not saying no one gets falsely accused, but I think most of it is credible. I don’t know any woman who has not had an unwanted advance of some type or worse at least once in there lifetime. There are definitely different degrees of this & not everything rises to the level of sexual assault or even close. I think that’s the main “problem” with the movment. Everything is not the same, but, overall I think the message is supposed to be that women are sick of putting up with inappropriate behavior & the “boys will be boys attitude”. Unfortunately, I don’t think that message is always clear.

 

[LSUmiss]

For real? Jusie Smollet's accusations made world wide headlines, and then the falsification absolutely made world wide headlines. There was no way to avoid it. And he lost his job, so it's not like he got away scott free.

That’s the thing. False accusations almost always eventually come to light.

 

[smiths02]

Again, while false accusations are a problem, I still think that people have powerful reasons to believe that the accused are innocent even if they aren't.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/george-pell-michael-jackson-cognitive-dissonance/10892948

Have you ever watched local news footage after something terrible happens? The neighbors are always talking about what a nice, quiet family they were, they can't believe it, etc. Also, reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit about R. Kelly, yet here we are talking about R. Kelly again.