Group or Individual Discipline??

[Luv'sTink]

If someone is on a "team" and one or two members of this "team" are not doing what is asked or expected of them. Do you believe it should be group or individual discipline?

On a side note...the boss/instructor demands everyone be treated with respect, and only the boss/instructor can discipline.
The boss/instructor can plainly see who is and who is not doing what is asked/expected.


Does the age of the group matter?
Does your opinion change if it is sports vs. work? Why?


If you believe it should group discipline...

What is the incentive for the members that are doing what is asked/expected of them to continue doing what is asked/expected of them, if they are going to be disciplined anyway?

Do you think group discipline will make the member do what is asked/expected of them because of the other members being disciplined?

Here is the big question.....
What are the members that are doing what is asked/expected of them suppose to do about/to the members that are not doing what is asked/expected?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

In a job...individual, in sports or academics or extra-curricular
Activities, it really depends on the issue. oh, military as well.

That movie where they integrated a football team (I think Denzel Washington played the coach) is a good example of using group discipline to improve the team. At one point, the team members began encouraging each other b/c to not get along meant more consequences.

But it is a tough question to answer in that there are times when one or the other is more appropriate.

In employment--rewards might be a way to encourage the group dynamic. But individuals not performing to company standard can and should be fired as keeping them could negatively impact company profits.

 

[Luv'sTink]

In a job...individual, in sports or academics or extra-curricular
Activities, it really depends on the issue. oh, military as well.

That movie where they integrated a football team (I think Denzel Washington played the coach) is a good example of using group discipline to improve the team. At one point, the team members began encouraging each other b/c to not get along meant more consequences.

But it is a tough question to answer in that there are times when one or the other is more appropriate.

In employment--rewards might be a way to encourage the group dynamic. But individuals not performing to company standard can and should be fired as keeping them could negatively impact company profits.

Remember the Titans; That was a GREAT movie!

If I remember correctly, there were only one or two doing what they were suppose to do.

Thanks for your reply!!

 

[Liberty Belle]

Individual, definitely, especially if it's kids middle school age and younger.

 

[EclecticWAHM]

Individual. It absolutely stinks having to "pay" for what other people are doing or not doing. The people doing something wrong are the only ones who should have to suffer consequences, especially if the boss/instructor can clearly see what is happening.

 

[Luv'sTink]

Thanks for your replies so far!!

 

[The Mystery Machine]

If the boss is DEMANDING respect then individual all the way.

It is disrespectful to discipline someone who is doing their job well and correctly to boot.

 

[Pakey]

Individual.

 

[scrapquitler]

Individual. It absolutely stinks having to "pay" for what other people are doing or not doing. The people doing something wrong are the only ones who should have to suffer consequences, especially if the boss/instructor can clearly see what is happening.

Exactly.

I remember when I was in 7th grade, there was a day with behavior issues in an English class that I was in. The teacher got upset and punished the ENTIRE class. The entire class was NOT being a problem...maybe 60% was a problem, and 40% was not (I was in the 40%, really). I can tell you that it certainly was NOT a team building experience...all it did was build resentment. Those of us who were behaving appropriately and were punished along with those who were not behaving appropriately felt resentful and angry. That's not a good outcome.

If the boss (or in this case, teacher) knows where the problem is, he or she should have individual consequences, not group ones.

 

[bumbershoot]

only the boss/instructor can discipline.

Then there's no point in group discipline, if the others in the group can't do anything about their coworkers not doing what they are supposed to do...

I find it to be incredibly de-motivating to be punished for something I'm not doing wrong and that I have no power over...

 

[bicker]

Punishing a team must have a very specific context: The perpetrator actually (already) caring about the team's approval, and most importantly, the team (already) caring about (in a positive way) the perpetrator. If the team doesn't care about the perpetrator, or is negatively inclined towards the perpetrator, than punishing the team is craven, scurrilous behavior on the part of the authority.

 

[luvsJack]

I have never heard it put as "discipline" from a boss, especially group discipline. I don't see how one adult employee can have any bearing on another adult employee.

Now with kids, well, like a pp said; it all depends. When ds played baseball, the coach used group discipline as a way to get them acting like a team. After a point though, he would change to individual discipline, especially when the group things didn't work on a player or two. DD's showchoir teacher also uses it. It works to a point with small groups.

For classes or grades, I don't like group discipline. Our principal uses it a lot but I don't agree with it at all. Its just too large of a group. And she tends to treat the jr. high as a whole. The 7th graders are not allowed to be any where around the 8th graders so how on earth could one have any influence on how the other acts?

 

[Luv'sTink]

I have never heard it put as "discipline" from a boss, especially group discipline. I don't see how one adult employee can have any bearing on another adult employee.

Now with kids, well, like a pp said; it all depends. When ds played baseball, the coach used group discipline as a way to get them acting like a team. After a point though, he would change to individual discipline, especially when the group things didn't work on a player or two. DD's showchoir teacher also uses it. It works to a point with small groups.

For classes or grades, I don't like group discipline. Our principal uses it a lot but I don't agree with it at all. Its just too large of a group. And she tends to treat the jr. high as a whole. The 7th graders are not allowed to be any where around the 8th graders so how on earth could one have any influence on how the other acts?

How did this make them act as a team? Do you by any chance know what the kids that were not doing anything wrong suppose to do to make the one doing wrong do right?

 

[KATHINOWA]

My DS had 125 kids in his kindergarten grade. Of those 125 about 5-10 were horrible mean children all through elementary school. The entire grade lost out on field trips because the teachers did not want to take the bad kids. They are now in 9th grade and the principal is still complaining about this grade and that about 10 kids are causing problems. So now these 10-15 kids are the reason 400+ students are missing out on things.

In this case I do not think punishing the masses has helped in any way. I think if these kids were made to sit out on an activity back in 1st or 2nd grade while everyone else went, they MAY have learned a lesson (maybe not).

 

[Luv'sTink]

My DS had 125 kids in his kindergarten grade. Of those 125 about 5-10 were horrible mean children all through elementary school. The entire grade lost out on field trips because the teachers did not want to take the bad kids. They are now in 9th grade and the principal is still complaining about this grade and that about 10 kids are causing problems. So now these 10-15 kids are the reason 400+ students are missing out on things.

In this case I do not think punishing the masses has helped in any way. I think if these kids were made to sit out on an activity back in 1st or 2nd grade while everyone else went, they MAY have learned a lesson (maybe not).

I agree! People need to be held responsible for themselves, to which they have control, not others to which they have no control.

In your example, group punishment has not made the offending students change at all. I wonder over the years what the real affect it has had on the non-offending students, if any. I would think anger towards the offending students, and if so, that has not stopped the bad behavior.

 

[Disney Ella]

I agree! People need to be held responsible for themselves, to which they have control, not others to which they have no control.

In your example, group punishment has not made the offending students change at all. I wonder over the years what the real affect it has had on the non-offending students, if any. I would think anger towards the offending students, and if so, that has not stopped the bad behavior.

The ones who screw up never care if anyone is angry at them. Whenever the entire group is punished, I think the bad ones are rewarded in a way, because now they have company for their punishment.

 

[luvsJack]

How did this make them act as a team? Do you by any chance know what the kids that were not doing anything wrong suppose to do to make the one doing wrong do right?

He told them from day one that to play as a team they had to act as a team and a team acts as one. So if someone was not paying attention at practice, they all ran laps for instance. Or if someone did something wrong on the field, they all did push ups. For that particular set of boys, they started encouraging each other, started making sure everyone was paying attention (like nudging the guy next to them if he was looking off or something), they would call each other and make sure everyone was getting to practice, etc. Now it may not work for every group but it did for THAT group. On a later team with this coach, he had a couple of boys that just wouldn't respond to the rest of the team and he just switched to individual discipline and basically set them on the bench.

I do agree with the pp, punishing an entire grade or class doesn't work at all. Too many people involved and too many that don't care. A coach has a different situation in that at least 99% of the players WANT to be there and WANT to do well--not the same in a classroom situation.

 

[Momvic5]

My only experience with group discipline was when I participated in high school sports. We were not punished as a group for things outside of our sport - just for things that happened during practices or games. I will admit that it worked for most of us. We felt pressured to keep in line for fear of wrath from the whole team. My junior year, one girl caused problems for us all...our coach finally removed her from our team. The girl was told that her behavior showed that she had no regard for her teammates and that she was not a team player. She was very angry when she left, but she came back the next year and was a different player. We did not have any problems with her at all.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I can't stand group discipline. First, why punish people who are doing the right thing for someone else's choices? Not fair and will likely make the group resentful of the person handing out the discipline and they are right to feel that way because no-one can control someone else, if the leader can't do it how can peers do it Second, a person who can't or won't behave themselves is already, very likely, an outcast so how does underlining those differences improve behavior? Won't embarrassment and more alienation just make things worse and trigger an escalation?

The whole thing is just a bad idea perpetuated by people who don't think things through. Some individuals just can't be brought to heel so managing the disruption is the way to go.... not this.

Kindness begets kindness, consideration begets consideration, respect begets respect and the idea is equally true with negative energy/feelings/words.

 

[perdidochas]

It depends on the lesson you are teaching.

If you are emphasizing teamwork, then group discipline is appropriate. Otherwise it should all be individual.