Gifted classes/school --- why the overwhelming demand?

Our district writes an EALP (exceptionally able learning plan) each year for a student that tested at the high end of the spectrum at the end of the prior school year. It's similar to an IEP in that it lays out what additional services will be provided for the child.
 
Trust me, there is a whole industry that is prepping them to the test.

In our district it isn't one test that gets you into the advanced program or allows a student to stay in it. It requires maintaining at least an 85% average, scoring above average on standardized testing and receive teacher recommendation.
 
Honestly, I think the increase in demand has a couple of factors: 2) many students who are above average, but not necessarily the top of the class, are not being challenged in the classroom anymore. The only option left is to try to get into upper level programs. The reason for that is a whole other thread though!

I didn't even think of that! This would be an eye opener for me.
 
My son is really, very smart. He was in a magnate K-8 and the whole school was like a G/T program so no pressure. We selected the neighborhood high school because he wanted to participate in sports-the magnate high school doesn't have them. the magnate is an IB school and has regular classes that most schools would consider AP starting freshman year. The neighborhood school was extremely deficient academically. DS hated it. Students sleeping in class, students yelling at teachers, apathy everywhere. He began getting horrible migraines and eventually I took him out to home school him-he's doing a virtual charter school that DOES challenge him academically. Next year, he's going to the public magnate with advanced academics and better discipline. There is no excuse for the neigborhood school to be so bad. My friends didn't believe me because their kids weren't sharing at first...now they all know and their smart kids are complaining about being bored and lack of learning or no energy of their teachers. They all wish they'd listened to me in the beginning. Perhaps if we ALL had complained to the principal, there would have been some changes. So, that's why there need to be G/T schools and more of them. Regular schools are dumbing down the education of our children...the people clammoring for those schools know their children will benefit.
 

Trust me, there is a whole industry that is prepping them to the test.

This is so true and the test is easy so the smart kids are not being challenged. Get them out of those schools who are happy with them getting good grades on the test-they are being cheated there and taught at a very low level.
 
But, don't they have to prove themselves (i.e. keep up with the "work") in order to stay?

Where I lived in Louisiana, once a child tested as gifted, they were considered Special Ed and that classification could not be taken away.
 
Legally speaking, children who certify as gifted fall under the same umbrella as special education students. These students have been tested and meet state requirements for gifted certification and must be serviced by the school in order to have their needs met. Just like some children with learning disabilities may need special attention to have their needs met, gifted children may also need attention outside the regular classroom setting. Children who certify as gifted have an IEP (individualized education plan) just like those with other special education needs.

In my opinion, what the OP is referring to is not the same. Children in a "gifted and talented school" may be advanced and have probably performed well on academic placement tests or performance based assessments, but it is doubtful that they would all certify as gifted (although I am sure some would).

In my opinion, parents would be interested in a school like this because they believe it gives their child a more intensive curriculum and an advantage in later years. With anything, however, there are downsides to these types of schools as well. Parents just have to decide what is best for their own children.
 
I didn't even think of that! This would be an eye opener for me.

OP, just out of curiousity what prompted this thread? Is it school budget votes and your child's needs not being met?

I have a real problem with the generalizations thrown around about all kinds of things. What people need to remember is the policies where they live don't necessarily play out across the country. Here kids get dropped and added to advanced programs every year and a child could be in advanced math and basic english based on grades, testing and recommendations.
 
Where I lived in Louisiana, once a child tested as gifted, they were considered Special Ed and that classification could not be taken away.

I guess that's why I was confused. The schools I know about here, they actually need to maintain a B average. It's not simpy a test in thing. It is getting honor roll grades consistently, testing in, and maintaining the grades. I find these educational threads very interesting. It is amazing how different it can be from state to state, and even town to town in some cases.
 
OP, just out of curiousity what prompted this thread? Is it school budget votes and your child's needs not being met?

.

My daughter goes to an enrichment school (this would be academic school on Saturdays) and the school is all about prepping kids for the G&T tests. So I see a lot of parents going for G&T schools and am wondering how all these kids are gifted. And I am questioning myself thinking my daughter is the odd man out.

But there are some good perspectives in this thread about quality of education in the regular academic programs.
 
Legally speaking, children who certify as gifted fall under the same umbrella as special education students. These students have been tested and meet state requirements for gifted certification and must be serviced by the school in order to have their needs met. Just like some children with learning disabilities may need special attention to have their needs met, gifted children may also need attention outside the regular classroom setting. Children who certify as gifted have an IEP (individualized education plan) just like those with other special education needs. In my opinion, what the OP is referring to is not the same. Children in a "gifted and talented school" may be advanced and have probably performed well on academic placement tests or performance based assessments, but it is doubtful that they would all certify as gifted (although I am sure some would).

In my opinion, parents would be interested in a school like this because they believe it gives their child a more intensive curriculum and an advantage in later years. With anything, however, there are downsides to these types of schools as well. Parents just have to decide what is best for their own children.

Here in our district in NJ a child deemed gifted is given an EALP which is similar to an IEP but having that doesn't guarantee placement in the advanced level classes. A gifted student will start in them but if he/she can't maintain an 85% their needs will be met by the teacher within the regular class. While the EALP can't be taken away here it is revised each year and has to be signed by the school and the parents.
 
Honestly, I think the increase in demand has a couple of factors: 1) many parents think their children are G&T whether they are or not. 2) many students who are above average, but not necessarily the top of the class, are not being challenged in the classroom anymore. The only option left is to try to get into upper level programs. The reason for that is a whole other thread though!

My older dd who is a college sophomore now and could NOT get into the gifted/honors in HS took every AP class she could to stay out of regular classes.

My youngest dd in 8th tested into the gifted program this yr out of survival. She was going to let it slide but the Language Arts teacher drove her to do it. (I will say the teachers wanted her there but she was just going to let it slide because she was in their "challenge program" anyway.)

Get this...so she tests, does not make it. However the tester calls me and says, we are going to do a different type of test on her because her verbal skills are "out there"...

She then tells me that their "gifted program" is "language arts" based to which I laugh at her because my dd could walk into a college level language arts class and get a A without any effort at this point. She is truly gifted in that area.

Of course the tester re-tests her and passes her. :rolleyes:

So she has spent the second semester with the "gifted class" and she is infuriated at how much more PERKS they are given and how the kids and teachers let things slide and don't give a crap.

Well....so now she will be in all honors in HS and in an above honors language arts class (that was something she had to apply for and test into). She is so excited.

So....is she truly gifted or are we living in a state of idocracy. Stay tuned for the fall.....popcorn::
 
honestly I wish we had a gifted and talented school around here. my eldest is in 3rd grade and is very advanced. sadly, all the advanced pull-out programs for kids younger than 4th got cut last year, so we were doing our best to supplement at home and holding our breath till 4th grade when he can finally be challenged again. ahhh...but now we have heard they are cutting 4th grade's gifted and talented program for next year. lovely.

my son is not at risk for dropping out. he is young and loves school still. but he is bored out of his mind when it comes to math in particular. I don't blame him. imagine sitting in class day after day while the teacher goes over stuff you can do in your sleep. she has tried to challenge him, but its hard to single him out and the closest students to his abilities in his class are still well behind where he is. Sometimes I feel like a parent who is failing him because I can't afford to send him to private school and we can't afford to move to a different district at this time. Am hoping I can change something for him in the not-too-distant future, because I would hate for him to grow so bored as to start hating school.

If your child is so advanced in math, why don't you suggest to the school to let him take his math class in a higher grade class?

That's what they did when my kids where in school.

My son's friend was taking high school math classes when she was in fifth grade. She was a real whiz in math. By 8th grade, she was taking college-level math classes at the local college.

She would start her day at the high school and then be bussed back for her regular classes.
 
Here in our district in NJ a child deemed gifted is given an EALP which is similar to an IEP but having that doesn't guarantee placement in the advanced level classes. A gifted student will start in them but if he/she can't maintain an 85% their needs will be met by the teacher within the regular class. While the EALP can't be taken away here it is revised each year and has to be signed by the school and the parents.

I would think this is true in most places when you are talking about a child who is certified gifted (I am in Tennessee and it is true here). Just because a child is gifted doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be in all advanced classes. A child could be mathematically gifted but perform below level in English. But, as you said, a child who is certified gifted has an educational plan that addresses needs, strengths, and even weaknesses that is revised each year and is agreed upon by the parents and the school.

Students in a gifted and talented school may have to have certain scores on tests and perform at a certain level to gain entrance or to remain in the school, but they are not all legally certified as gifted. In most states, students must score at least 125 on an IQ test to certify as gifted, and for many states, they must score 130. Statistically, that's only 3-5% of students.
 
honestly I wish we had a gifted and talented school around here. my eldest is in 3rd grade and is very advanced. sadly, all the advanced pull-out programs for kids younger than 4th got cut last year, so we were doing our best to supplement at home and holding our breath till 4th grade when he can finally be challenged again. ahhh...but now we have heard they are cutting 4th grade's gifted and talented program for next year. lovely.

my son is not at risk for dropping out. he is young and loves school still. but he is bored out of his mind when it comes to math in particular. I don't blame him. imagine sitting in class day after day while the teacher goes over stuff you can do in your sleep. she has tried to challenge him, but its hard to single him out and the closest students to his abilities in his class are still well behind where he is. Sometimes I feel like a parent who is failing him because I can't afford to send him to private school and we can't afford to move to a different district at this time. Am hoping I can change something for him in the not-too-distant future, because I would hate for him to grow so bored as to start hating school.

If your child is certified as gifted, they are legally required to provide services. If your child is not certified and you believe he should be, ask for an assessment. If you feel that he is bright and just needs a challenge, talk to his teacher about providing above-level work. Most teachers would be happy to work with you in meeting his needs.
 
One of my kids IS Gifted, by the school board's standards. It's not so much about "school smarts" as it is that they are creative thinkers, and don't fit in the usual round hole, kwim?

The first time she spent the day at an activity, she came home, literally in tears, b/c for the first time in her entire life she felt like she "fit in" somewhere. She flat out told me "They think like ME, Mommy!"

I didn't "push for" her to be in the Gifted program, in fact, the school did. The kids here have to go through pretty stringent testing in Grade 4 to even be considered for it.

I actually find myself becoming a tad insulted when people make blanket statements like "B/c people need to think their kids are better than anyone else's" b/c that's not the case around here.:confused3 It strikes me as sour grapes.;)

Spend night after night comforting a kid b/c they don't fit in and are being bullied and tortured simply b/c they think differently than other kids their age, and G&T doesn't look so frivalous anymore.:thumbsup2

She's better able to deal with the kids at school now, because she's gained confidence from having a place where HER normal is "real" normal....
 
If your child is certified as gifted, they are legally required to provide services. If your child is not certified and you believe he should be, ask for an assessment. If you feel that he is bright and just needs a challenge, talk to his teacher about providing above-level work. Most teachers would be happy to work with you in meeting his needs.

I'm not sure that's true everywhere. It wasn't true when I was in school, but that was a million years ago so it may have changed. In fact, the G&T program was lost to budget cuts as the school system was legally required to provide services and extra staff for SpEd students, but not the G&T program. G&T kids were not put in the same category as Special Needs students in our district.

Again, this was 20 years ago, so things may have changed (although from the posts by others in Mass. I'm guessing it hasn't)
 
Forgive me, but I'm going to rearrange the paragraphs of your posts a bit, to separate two subtopics and make my replies more succinct.

I have always believed that G&T classes/ schools were for "at risk" kids who are intellectually gifted but would not be served by a regular school due to the slower or more average pace of schooling. Would this be a fair assumption?

No, it would not be. The reason for creating such programs is to foster intellectual achievement, not to lower the dropout rate. Only in very specific (and usually urban) situations are gifted children likely to be at high risk for dropping out; in most of the country these programs are havens for the kids who REALLY love school.

When I mean "at risk" I am talking about kids who are not served by their current school and who are at risk of dropping out. This would include G&T kids. That is the whole reason of recognizing them and testing them EARLY.

As I said, an incorrect assumption. The reason for testing them early is to place them in an appropriate learning environment and avoid stifling their intellectual growth. Getting them out of a regular mixed-ability classroom in the lower grades also sometimes has the collateral benefit of giving more instructional time to the rest of the children, in that the gifted child will not be there to monopolize the teacher's attention (which gifted kids tend to do, because most of them are by nature intellectually curious.)

The issue of why the programs exist *is* the gist of the thread, because you are assuming that these resources are designed for at-risk kids, when they usually are not. That erroneous assumption is completely coloring your perceptions of the reasons why people want to get their kids into these programs.

Now then, I agree with what other posters have said about wanting these kids to be challenged and to have better guidance, but I'm going to add one more reason that is specific to major urban districts, and that reason is, to keep them safe from perceived dangers.

In many urban school districts that have magnet and choice programs, the gifted schools are almost always also the safest schools; the ones in the best neighborhoods, the ones where teachers actually spend most of their time teaching instead of breaking up fights, waking up kids, and writing up mandatory reports about things like suspected child neglect. They are the schools with the most involved and most affluent parents, and generally they are best schools that exist in a given urban district. That whole perspective goes double for the NYC public schools, especially with regard to Hunter. Poorer kids almost never get into Hunter anymore unless their parents are public servants, because the parental involvement bar has been raised too high. As one article put it 20 years ago:

To decide who gets into ''gifted'' programs, which may start as early as the nursery level, schools have traditionally relied on the I.Q. test. The children who do best on these tests, say educators, are those who've had the most ''mediated'' experience - been read to, talked to, listened to, taken on car trips and had every last cow pointed out. In short, the middle-class child.

Three articles on the subject from the NYTimes archive (and note that the first one is 20 years old, it is the source of the quote I used above):
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/06/magazine/gifted-children-s-programs-a-matter-of-class.html?src=pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/nyregion/19gifted.html

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/30/10-more-qualify-for-kindergarten-gifted-programs/
 
I'm not sure that's true everywhere. It wasn't true when I was in school, but that was a million years ago so it may have changed. In fact, the G&T program was lost to budget cuts as the school system was legally required to provide services and extra staff for SpEd students, but not the G&T program. G&T kids were not put in the same category as Special Needs students in our district.

Again, this was 20 years ago, so things may have changed (although from the posts by others in Mass. I'm guessing it hasn't)

IDEA is a federal law. If a child is certified as gifted, which is technically a disability because the child's needs are not being met by the regular classroom setting, the school is required to provide services. It is the legal right of the parent to require that the students needs are met, but schools wouldn't necessarily have to have a special program to do this. Schools may have flexibility with their budget as far as providing a specific gifted and talented program, but if a child has an IEP, and the school is not holding to the plan in that IEP, the parents have legal options (and any parent who has a child with an IEP is given a packet with these legal rights explained--this is federal law as well).

Unfortunately, many gifted children do not get the services they need (and could ask for) because people tend to think, "Oh, they're smart, they'll be fine." Most special education dollars go to the students that most would think of when you think about special needs kids. And while money certainly should be spent for the needs of those children, gifted children can have challenges of their own and can suffer when their needs are not met.

Again, this is not the same as academically bright children who need to be challenged and may be participating is some special programs. These children have been tested and legally certified as gifted.
 

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