Getting desparate - Image Sizing

[PoohJen]

I've posted a similar thread to this, but just didn't "get" it. Have since read other threads touching on similar, and still not getting it.

Here's the problem.

I have created a picture, using baseball team pic as center, with individual player cropped pics around, creating a border.

I would like to blow this up to poster size (16x20, or 20x30).

Can someone tell me what size in pixels I need?

My editing program seems to let me type in the number of pixels I need. So if it was, say, 3456x2304 (randomly stolen from Jann's thread), would I resize it to 2880x2304 for a 20x16? (ie, 5:4 ratio???

I do recall dpi is 250. Does that matter?

I am so confused.

Also, separate issue (i think): Like in Janet's thread, I thought my 8mp Rebel should allow for large enlargements. The Walgreens site says my pic doesn't qualify to make 20x30, which requires "minimum image resolution" of "2700x1800" pixels. I know my pic has at least that, so I don't know why Walgreen's cart doesn't "recommend" i print it at that size.

Does anyone here know what I think I am talking about? Can anyone dumb it down enough to set me straight?

 

[Master Mason]

Pooh,

I didn't check the math, but I do believe your reasoing is correct with the 5x4 ratio.

As for walgreens, does there software downsize the pic? Lots of photo sites automatically do that so that it takes less storage space.

ETA, you don't want to resize either though as it will distort, you want to crop it to the right size.

 

[PoohJen]

Thanks MM. So, if I plug in the pixel numbers I want, my editing software (theoretically) will adjust the pixels accordingly, applied to the whole pic?

This will distort the picture? hmmm. Can you suggest to me how to crop so that I get the "right" size, and that I know as I'm cropping what size it will be? How do I crop to make a 16x20, or 20x30?

 

[Master Mason]

Thanks MM. So, if I plug in the pixel numbers I want, my editing software (theoretically) will adjust the pixels accordingly, applied to the whole pic?

This will distort the picture? hmmm. Can you suggest to me how to crop so that I get the "right" size, and that I know as I'm cropping what size it will be? How do I crop to make a 16x20, or 20x30?

if your picture was for easy numbers originally a 4x6 size. And you wanted to make it a 4x5 size.

If you changed the size, the software will compress all of the information from the 6 demension into a 5 space, thereby altering the picture. instead of the origial 6 size all the information would be compressed into 5. Think of when you were a kid streaching silly puddy with a picture on it, and how it distorts the picture.

What you need to do is to set your crop tool to the demensions you want, then move it over your picture until the crop frame gets the section of the picture you want. you will lose 1 from your 6 to make it fit, but you get to control what is cut rather than the shop.

Make sense?

 

[PoohJen]

What you need to do is to set your crop tool to the demensions you want, then move it over your picture until the crop frame gets the section of the picture you want. you will lose 1 from your 6 to make it fit, but you get to control what is cut rather than the shop.

Make sense?

Yes, thanks, it does make sense, but to make it a 16x20, can I just crop it to 4x5? (sorry if this sounds so dumb, I'm just trying to get it right. See separate thread about beating myself up over 'cropped' 4x6s, only to realize the printed paper wasn't actually a full 4x6, hence cropped effect)

Really appreciate your help!

 

[Master Mason]

Here is an example

Original 4x6 frame

Cropped to 5x7

image sized to 5x7 notice the difference in the way the 50 looks

 

[Master Mason]

The ratio is correct. so if your using 4x5 as a ratio in your software your fine. If your using it as absolute inches you would be wrong. At least that is my understanding

 

[Anewman]

Can you suggest to me how to crop so that I get the "right" size, and that I know as I'm cropping what size it will be? How do I crop to make a 16x20, or 20x30?

What software are you using?

 

[PoohJen]

It's from Arcsoft, came with the Rebel XT: called Photostudio (i'm not at home so don't recall more detail at moment).

Someone on this forum nicely looked into it for me and said it's not a user-friendly program, but after downloading the PE5 demo, that had too much of a learning curve for me to switch this particular project midstream. Actually not seeing much difference (at first glance) between the two programs, so I'm at an impasse as to whether to purchase PE5 at this time. But that's for another day...

 

[Anewman]

Actually not seeing much difference (at first glance) between the two programs, so I'm at an impasse as to whether to purchase PE5 at this time.

One of the biggest differences will be that with the Photoshop line, there will be the surplus of tutorials and fellow posters that maybe able to help with instructions.

Without ever using Photostudio, when you select the crop tool look for boxes in the toolbars where you might be able to enter the RATIO you wish to print at. You could go ahead and enter the desired print size as long as DPI box is blank and/or RESAMPLE is unchecked.
If you cant find the custom ratio boxes, I am sure it has some presets that can work. EXAMPLE 2/3(4/6) ratio will give you a 20x30... While 4/5 ratio will print at 16x20

Do not worry too much about DPI as long as you send the biggest file you have, the lab will resample anyways unless you happen to send the image at EXACTLY the dpi used by their machine. So if you dont know exactly what DPI they use there is really no benefit to resizing yourself(except for preview purposes). Just send in the image with the proper ratio to avoid unwanted cropping.

 

[Anewman]

When uploading to Walgreens(run by snapfish), in the popup window where you select images from your PC to upload... Look at the bottom of that popup, there are two options of interest that should solve your issues.

 

[Amy]

Ok, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around this stuff, and I think it's all because of the pixels. I guess I have to stop thinking about picture sizes and start thinking of number of pixels, right? Usually I think of a picture as 4x6, and a 5x7 to me is "enlarging", but you're using the term "cropping."

Is this right? - I'm thinking of Master Mason and what he said above about compressing the pixels. I take a picture with my 6mp Canon S3, and my resolution is set for X pixels by Y pixels, which prints just fine as a 4x6 (whatever those numbers of pixels are). If I "crop" to 5x7 or 8x10 (I have Elements 4), then the software enlarges all the pixels, but I'll lose some around the edges because the 4x6 ratio is diff. than the 5x7 or 8x10 ratio. However, other than cutting off some of the picture, the rest of my picture will look fine.

But, if instead of cropping, I tell Elements to change the number of pixels and if I mess up the ratios, then I run the risk of distorting my photo - maybe stretching the pixels along the one side. Is that correct?

I got the "Missing Manual" book for Elements 4, and the chapter on resizing images confused me. They showed both ways - changing number of pixels and plugging in the specific size you want. I couldn't really tell much difference on their examples, but I'd like to know which method is "fail-safe." Looks like we're better off plugging in measurements for the output size rather than playing with number of pixels? Am I totally off-base with this?

 

[extreme8]

I have created a picture, using baseball team pic as center, with individual player cropped pics around, creating a border.

I would like to blow this up to poster size (16x20, or 20x30).

Can someone tell me what size in pixels I need?

From your earlier post it looks like your original photo is in a 4x6 (2/3)format, so you won't want to print it as 16x20 (4/5) or you'll run into the cropping/resizing issues shown above.
For the easiest path your best bet is either 12x18 or 20x30.

If you plan to print at Costco most of their machines are at 320 ppi.
So, for Costco processing:
12x18 size - make your picture 3840x5760
20x30 size - make your picture 6400x9600

I just downloaded the demo of photostudio to check it out. It's not all that bad, just different from what photoshop users expect.
Here's how to make the changes -
Open your image
Click on "EDIT" from the menu
Choose "IMAGE SIZE"
Leave "Keep Aspect Ratio" checked
Enter the values I listed above (depending on the size you want to print) into the "Width" and "Height" boxes. (if you enter the correct height and the calculated width is off by a few pixels don't worry about it - leave it alone and just coninue on)
Set the "Resolution" to 320
Make sure "Best" is selected in the quality section.
Click OK.
Go ahead and File/Save As. I'd change the name and turn the quality up to 100.

Now you have a nice 14 or 15 mb file to send to Costco for printing.
Make sure you don't send a reduced size for processing. You can turn this on and off during the upload process.

Anewman is right about the lab resizing, but why take a chance when you can spend an extra few minutes yourself and make sure it's done right.
Good luck!

 

[Anewman]

Ok, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around this stuff, and I think it's all because of the pixels. I guess I have to stop thinking about picture sizes and start thinking of number of pixels, right? Usually I think of a picture as 4x6, and a 5x7 to me is "enlarging", but you're using the term "cropping."

Think of it as ratios. 4x6 and 5x7 are too close for the example to really be obvious. But consider 4x6 to 10x10, it is obvious that the shape is not the same and there are two ways to get there. RESIZE which will stretch the image to fit a suare area, or CROP it into a square throwing away some data but keeping the subject as shot.

Is this right? - I'm thinking of Master Mason and what he said above about compressing the pixels. I take a picture with my 6mp Canon S3, and my resolution is set for X pixels by Y pixels, which prints just fine as a 4x6 (whatever those numbers of pixels are). If I "crop" to 5x7 or 8x10 (I have Elements 4), then the software enlarges all the pixels, but I'll lose some around the edges because the 4x6 ratio is diff. than the 5x7 or 8x10 ratio. However, other than cutting off some of the picture, the rest of my picture will look fine.

Actually the Canon S3 is a 4/3 ratio, it will print uncropped 8x12s but any 4x6 printed would have either been cropped or altered.

When YOU crop you do not enlarge the pixels, you just throw away the unneeded ones in order to be left with the correct shape(ratio).

You keep saying "enlarge" because you consider the starting image is 4x6, but tis not. It is a 6mp image, which you CROP(if needed) to the appropriate print ratio... you are not enlarging.

But, if instead of cropping, I tell Elements to change the number of pixels and if I mess up the ratios, then I run the risk of distorting my photo - maybe stretching the pixels along the one side. Is that correct?

When using the resize window, if you have the "keep aspect ratio" box checked it will not DISTORT. but if the box is unchecked it may.

 

[Anewman]

Anewman is right about the lab resizing, but why take a chance when you can spend an extra few minutes yourself and make sure it's done right.
Good luck!

I always resize, but I know exactly what DPI they print at. I would not "take a chance" otherwise.

 

[Master Mason]

Ok, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around this stuff, and I think it's all because of the pixels. I guess I have to stop thinking about picture sizes and start thinking of number of pixels, right? Usually I think of a picture as 4x6, and a 5x7 to me is "enlarging", but you're using the term "cropping."

Is this right? - I'm thinking of Master Mason and what he said above about compressing the pixels. I take a picture with my 6mp Canon S3, and my resolution is set for X pixels by Y pixels, which prints just fine as a 4x6 (whatever those numbers of pixels are). If I "crop" to 5x7 or 8x10 (I have Elements 4), then the software enlarges all the pixels, but I'll lose some around the edges because the 4x6 ratio is diff. than the 5x7 or 8x10 ratio. However, other than cutting off some of the picture, the rest of my picture will look fine.

But, if instead of cropping, I tell Elements to change the number of pixels and if I mess up the ratios, then I run the risk of distorting my photo - maybe stretching the pixels along the one side. Is that correct?

I got the "Missing Manual" book for Elements 4, and the chapter on resizing images confused me. They showed both ways - changing number of pixels and plugging in the specific size you want. I couldn't really tell much difference on their examples, but I'd like to know which method is "fail-safe." Looks like we're better off plugging in measurements for the output size rather than playing with number of pixels? Am I totally off-base with this?

Here is the best explination I can give.

each camera takes a picture, that picture is made up of lots of pixels. Each pixel is a rectangular box that is of a certain color. Because they are small and there are lots of them, you get smoth lines, curves and colors in your picture.

Your camera typically will take a picture with a ratio, most are 4x6 which means you will have 6 pixels horizontally to every 4 pixels veritcally when the final product of pixels is assembled.

If your printing a 4inch x 6 inch photo, or anything with that ratio, this is a good thing, so it would print 4x6, 8x12, 16x24, all are the same ratio.

If you wish to change the ratio of the print you have 2 options.

Option 1, crop out the part of the picture that conforms to the new ratio. so if you wanted a 5x7 picture So in your 4x6 size, you would have 4x5.6 ratio. You would therefore have to cut off .4 of your picture to get it to fit.

Option 2 resize and not crop. This would in the example above squeeze the .4 of the picture that would be cut off in the option above into the 5.6 availibe space, but that makes the pixels become narrower than they were originally therefore distorting the picture.


Now if your camera MP would normally print a good 8x10 picture, but you needed an 80x100 picture, you could blow it up, but what that does is just increase the size of the individual pixel, so the little rectanglar box becomes a much larger rectangular box, there by making your picture not as good, because the eye can now see the little boxes rather than being fooled into thinking it is a smoth line and curves.

Does that make any sence or did I just confuse you more?

 

[extreme8]

I always resize, but I know exactly what DPI they print at. I would not "take a chance" otherwise.

Re-reading my post that sounded condescending and I apologize - that's not at all the way it was intended.

Costco's Noritsu machines print at either 320 or 300 dpi. I understand that the "upgraded" machines print at 300 dpi - try and figure that one out.
Anyway, It's just that I would rather have a their equipment downsample a 320 dpi image to 300 than upsample a 75 dpi image to 300.
Personal preference.

 

[Groucho]

I had a reply all written up then, re-reading the original message, I see that we're not talking about an individual photo from a digicam - we're talking about a montage, with one large picture and many smaller ones.

For a single photo, I would recommend not resizing at all, just cropping to the desired aspect ratio, then let the photo lab take care of the resizing part.

For a collage... well, again, you're pretty much stuck with it at the current size unless you want to start all over. Even then, that's not necessary unless you made the collage in the wrong aspect ratio, or the resolution of the collage is such that you lost a lot of quality when shrinking down the smaller edge photos. (Hopefully those were kept more or less original size and the center photo was blown up.)

Ultimately, though - don't worry about how big the printed image will be, only worry about the aspect ratio.

 

[Anewman]

Re-reading my post that sounded condescending and I apologize - that's not at all the way it was intended.

Costco's Noritsu machines print at either 320 or 300 dpi. I understand that the "upgraded" machines print at 300 dpi - try and figure that one out.
Anyway, It's just that I would rather have a their equipment downsample a 320 dpi image to 300 than upsample a 75 dpi image to 300.
Personal preference.

No need to apologize, like you said it is just a matter of preference. I would avoid the up then downsampling(and sharpening that goes along).

I was just stating that there are more important things to get a grasp of, until then the multi thousand dollar equipment at costco will do a pretty good job of resampling as long as one sends the image in the proper aspect ratio.

 

[Groucho]

Costco's Noritsu machines print at either 320 or 300 dpi. I understand that the "upgraded" machines print at 300 dpi - try and figure that one out.
Anyway, It's just that I would rather have a their equipment downsample a 320 dpi image to 300 than upsample a 75 dpi image to 300.
Personal preference.

Why? Because you trust your software's ability to upsample more than theirs?

You can print a 75dpi image at 150, 300, 600, whatever - it'll still have no more detail than if it were printed at 75dpi. You can't create picture information where none existed before. Assuming that the upsamplers offer comparable quality (as I suspect they do), you gain nothing by doing it yourself. You make in fact make it worse by having the image go through multiple resizings (say, 75dpi to 320dpi to 300dpi) - while the image quality probably won't degrade much, each successful resizing is taking its toll.

Bear in mind that we're talking about a collage here, though, not a straight-from-camera JPG. The ideal thing is to know the dpi it'll print at ahead of time (by talking to the lab in question), knowing what size you'll print at, then creating a new file in that size in Photoshop (or editor of choice.) You can then size your various photos as necessary without worrying that you're losing quality by shrinking them past the quality level they'll print at.