Ft. Wilderness Cabins becoming DVC?

[sethschroeder]

I'm not sure if you've ever stayed at Fort Wilderness, but there are multiple buses at Fort Wilderness. As I recall, there are 3 internal bus loops. Each is color coded.

You walk in the open (which stinks if it's raining) from your cabin/campsite to wait at a stop for a bus in one of the internal loops. This internal loop bus (which itself makes multiple stops) then takes you to the front, where you get off and then wait for a second bus to take you to a theme park. (There is boat service to the Magic Kingdom, but you have to either take a bus to get to that or rent/bring your own golf cart to get to the boat dock.)

Fort Wilderness is 750 acres. Depending on where you are, you need to take a bus to one of the pools, one of the stores, or the restaurant. (Again, this is if you don't have your own golf cart.)

With a party of 5, I'll take a Standard View one-bedroom at Kidani every time. Heck, I'll give up the second bathroom and stay in a Standard View one-bedroom at Jambo House for the same number of points.

I can rent a golf cart, drive right to the boat dock, and I am now on the boat to MK. Everything else golf card to the main bus terminal and catch a bus to the other parks (just like AK).

When I view AK bus service as terrible I am outlining as well as I view it as the worst bus service I have experienced so maybe FW is worse but I rarely see it talked about where as I see plenty of people agree with my view that AK is the worst bus service.

Others feel differently but its why I did break it down like I did with the caveat on the bus service piece. If you view bus service as just fine or even good then you likely will lean AKV every time.

In the end the boat to MK compared to a short bus ride to AK (which is the 4th ranked park) is a completely different benefit as well even if you consider the main bus service a wash from the resorts.

 

[sethschroeder]

Without additional limitations, one can assume that the limited points booked through the trust would mostly be used in high demand places at high demand times (monorail resorts at Christmas, Epcot resorts during food&wine, etc.).

Unless Disney is purposely holding back points that just wouldnt be the case.

Example Sept UY starts on Sept 1st and starting 11 months out from Sept 1st those points start to get eaten up at BWV.

Sally just booked a 2BR for 300 points? 300 points gone from the trust that they had and its for the start of September as the first dates that the points become available.

Additionally Disney couldn't hold back specific points for exact high demand weeks like Thanksgiving unless they sell the trust a FW which itself is limited and can't be broken up so the trust would have to have the Fixed week for someone directly.


I dont see this as being the case at all.

 

[sethschroeder]

The difficult question is: how will the trust enable access to its points. If it is first come, the above problem is likely.

Its only an issue for trust owners not existing owners though.

So it has zero impact on me and for people buying Trust Points you will have way more information likely before you can buy those points.

 

[walt34]

Its only an issue for trust owners not existing owners though.

So it has zero impact on me and for people buying Trust Points you will have way more information likely before you can buy those points.

Unless you are confident to have the fastest fingers at 8 am you might still have a problem. Because the old lady who used to book something for these 300 points in November has just been replaced by hundreds of trust owners trying for that Christmas week.

(Assuming a scenario where sold out resorts are added to the trust, a scenario which many here believe to be unlikely, for good reasons)

 

[Nabas]

Wow, there are a lot of interesting ideas being posted here, lots of different thoughts.

This makes me wonder, does all this speculation suggest that we simply don’t trust the Disney company the way we used to? Does this point to a bigger problem - is the relationship between Disney and its customers broken?

 

[maui22]

In 2023 and 2024 Disney has been cutting costs and looking to generate revenue. Many of the things suggested would require significant training and IT upgrades. How would that make sense for Disney?

 

[Cfabar1]

I am highly skeptical that the currently selling resorts get placed in the trust... imagine the practicality:

Deeded resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort
Trust resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort

you wouldn't get the whole resort, because you'd have to be trading between Palmetto (new) and BVTC (old) on some level

BUT

Direct owners at both have access to their rooms within their use plan or deed at 11 months, but only some of the rooms in the other part of the resort at 7 months

AND

You have to make it seamless to the user when booking and coherent to them.

The fact they just deeded a huge amount to the resort last month also makes me think Riviera, at least, is highly unlikely to be placed in the trust.

Now, could they change their mind on Poly and have that, as a new building, be its own thing, possibly... but if I were betting I think Poly stays a part of the original association because they told us so, and also because it gives them time to figure out their next steps, test the waters with the trust thing, see what pushback (if any) they get, etc.

If they do this right, in the way @Brian Noble outlined, nobody will really care that much, and it'll give them the groundwork necessary to make big changes post 2042.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I can rent a golf cart, drive right to the boat dock, and I am now on the boat to MK. Everything else golf card to the main bus terminal and catch a bus to the other parks (just like AK).

When I view AK bus service as terrible I am outlining as well as I view it as the worst bus service I have experienced so maybe FW is worse but I rarely see it talked about where as I see plenty of people agree with my view that AK is the worst bus service.

Others feel differently but its why I did break it down like I did with the caveat on the bus service piece. If you view bus service as just fine or even good then you likely will lean AKV every time.

In the end the boat to MK compared to a short bus ride to AK (which is the 4th ranked park) is a completely different benefit as well even if you consider the main bus service a wash from the resorts.

AKV bus service is often perceived as the worst but time and again calculators show it isn't. MK service tops out around 18-20 minutes from Kidani so that includes the stop at Jambo. The boat to MK from FW is around 10 minutes but then you have to add your golf cart trek in too so your probably in pretty similar territory. The locations with internal bus service that loop thru a resort before getting to park service are generally considered the worst although by no means does it mean it's terrible.

Frankly I find the AKV bus service to be the best. All others either have internal or stop at multiple resorts. I hate bus service from the MK resorts to other parks. And all is hit or miss based on things operating as scheduled which rarely is the case.

 

[PrincessKL]

I am highly skeptical that the currently selling resorts get placed in the trust... imagine the practicality:

Deeded resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort
Trust resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort

you wouldn't get the whole resort, because you'd have to be trading between Palmetto (new) and BVTC (old) on some level

BUT

Direct owners at both have access to their rooms within their use plan or deed at 11 months, but only some of the rooms in the other part of the resort at 7 months

AND

You have to make it seamless to the user when booking and coherent to them.

The fact they just deeded a huge amount to the resort last month also makes me think Riviera, at least, is highly unlikely to be placed in the trust.

Now, could they change their mind on Poly and have that, as a new building, be its own thing, possibly... but if I were betting I think Poly stays a part of the original association because they told us so, and also because it gives them time to figure out their next steps, test the waters with the trust thing, see what pushback (if any) they get, etc.

If they do this right, in the way @Brian Noble outlined, nobody will really care that much, and it'll give them the groundwork necessary to make big changes post 2042.

I think that they can create new room categories when we declare more units such as Riviera-Trust Standard Studio like how resort studios at GFV works. Maybe it even shows as a separate resort like Riviera-Trust Resort on the booking site. So that people who are not eligible to book won’t even see this on their end when they book.

 

[zavandor]

Wow, there are a lot of interesting ideas being posted here, lots of different thoughts.

This makes me wonder, does all this speculation suggest that we simply don’t trust the Disney company the way we used to? Does this point to a bigger problem - is the relationship between Disney and its customers broken?

We don't trust the Disney trust.
Ironic, isn't it?

 

[ocdb8r1]

I am highly skeptical that the currently selling resorts get placed in the trust... imagine the practicality:

I agree that this is a completely logical reaction, but this is precisely the level of complexity Marriott has somehow baked into a "trust" product, with "pieces" of various resorts across their whole system. They've even now started deeding pieces of the Vistana (Sheraton/Westin) resorts into the trust product (some of which are in another trust product created by Sheraton/Westin before the Marriott acquisition). It certainly creates an incredible inventory management complexity, that all seems to operate in a complete black box (with rampant speculation by owners of "deeded" weeks wondering if they're getting proper access or being out-competed by the "trust" for reservations). I'm not saying Marriott has done it "right" (or even "legal") but just pointing out they have done it and have had it up and running for over a decade. Bottom line, is somehow they've managed to do it and continue doing it with little challenge.

That said, Disney has typically been held to a higher standard than most other timeshare companies and has a more "fervent" owner base and I can see them (us) demanding more transparency if they do create some sort of multi-resort trust product. I just wouldn't be so fast to say it's too complex to be done....

 

[BeachClub2014]

I am highly skeptical that the currently selling resorts get placed in the trust... imagine the practicality:

Deeded resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort
Trust resale owners can only stay in the following portion of rooms at Riviera resort

you wouldn't get the whole resort, because you'd have to be trading between Palmetto (new) and BVTC (old) on some level

BUT

Direct owners at both have access to their rooms within their use plan or deed at 11 months, but only some of the rooms in the other part of the resort at 7 months

AND

You have to make it seamless to the user when booking and coherent to them.

The fact they just deeded a huge amount to the resort last month also makes me think Riviera, at least, is highly unlikely to be placed in the trust.

Now, could they change their mind on Poly and have that, as a new building, be its own thing, possibly... but if I were betting I think Poly stays a part of the original association because they told us so, and also because it gives them time to figure out their next steps, test the waters with the trust thing, see what pushback (if any) they get, etc.

If they do this right, in the way @Brian Noble outlined, nobody will really care that much, and it'll give them the groundwork necessary to make big changes post 2042.

I fired up the ouija board last night and communicated with Walt himself and asked him what he'd do. Walt said the new, shiny Poly Tower is going into the Trust and will have resale restrictions. If Walt said it on the oija board, then it must be true, right? But, given I was still a bit skeptical, I confirmed that what he said was true with my Magic 8 Ball, and we all know that its never wrong.

So, count on it. The Tower may be part of the PVB resort, as was mentioned by Yvonne, but it's gonna be in the Trust and restricted. Just like CFW.

 

[Ashlotte]

They are setting it up for direct buyers to have 11 month access at multiple resorts. They do not want resale owners to have that benefit.

Unfortunately, every restriction they add to resale makes purchasing direct less and less desirable, as a strong resale market is a solid reassurance that buying into this expensive timeshare plan has a reasonable exit strategy. They are shooting themselves in the foot by doubling down this way. Each change they have made takes us a step further into a traditional timeshare and further away from "DVC is the only timeshare that holds its value." I get that they want to force people to buy directly from them, but they are making the product so much worse that people will fail to see the value in spending tens of thousands of dollars to buy DVC at all.

 

[Sandisw]

I understand how this can technically work, in practice it would make the sales pitch just a bit more difficult. 'You get home resort advantage at both of these resorts but for resale purposes, you own at one'. Bringing up resale as a subject is probably not something guides like to do. At the same time, it is probably not more difficult to explain than the current door knob spiel ('you technically own a door knob but it gives you 100 points'). It's just one aspect more that requires explanation.

They don’t need to say anything about resale. They simply offer people a choice of what resort use plan they want to buy into from the start, but then say that either one gives the same priority.

 

[Sandisw]

@Cfabar1 In practice, you would not even know. Let’s use RIv…the remaining un declared units go into the trust…and only trust owners have access to those.

The POS for PVB that I reviewed…and I am guessing it is the same for all others…states new declarations or phases can be added to the same condo association under a different vacation plan. This is what I think allows them to sell them differently.

That means current deeded owners have access to book the number of rooms declared for them, and trust owners get the inventory out there.

Because the POs says we can stay in any room at the resort, even ones not yet declared, and vice versa, it doesn’t matter which rooms are declared to which.

What happens is that at 7 months, when all owners with eligible points can be booked via BVTC, whatever rooms from each bucket are still open, get released for all…it happens behind the scenes.

That is why I think it can work without issue at those that still have units not declared. For those sold out, this won’t work because you have to declared something as trust property and you can’t really do that when all DVD would own is a fractional ownership of one.

Right now, DVD is not required to declare any more of the rooms. We are only guaranteed when we buy to have access to the initial declaration. Once declared, we have acces, but if they choose to never sell the other 25% of the resort…I think that is what is left…trust or no trust…they can.

 

[Brian Noble]

a strong resale market is a solid reassurance that buying into this expensive timeshare plan has a reasonable exit strategy.

Most timeshare buyers are not thinking about the day they want to sell. If they were, Wyndham would never sell a single point (because the resale value is essentially zero), and Marriott would have a much harder time than they do (because the resale value is about 20 cents on the dollar).

 

[Jlo85]

New Trust Doc just dropped…

 

[kneely58]

New Trust Doc just dropped…

3 others with it too.

 

[Ashlotte]

Most timeshare buyers are not thinking about the day they want to sell. If they were, Wyndham would never sell a single point (because the resale value is essentially zero), and Marriott would have a much harder time than they do (because the resale value is about 20 cents on the dollar).

I agree. But I fear we are heading into the 20 cents (or less) on the dollar scenario with all of these changes, and in making such an overly complicated product.

I've owned WorldMark since 2006 (purchased resale) and have seen all of the pitfalls of their trust system as it has changed over the years (declining significantly after Wyndham took over management). Currently many, if not the majority, of DVC owners will advocate for purchasing direct when new or would be owners ask. WorldMark owners, by and large, advise new owners to rescind their direct contracts and go buy resale instead because of the massive discrepancy in value.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

There's some language in here that feels like it's talking about two different types of owners. Am I just seeing things?