Ft. Wilderness Cabins becoming DVC?

[Brian Noble]

it is still easier, faster, and cheaper to terminate a non-deeded interest than to perform a non-judicial foreclosure.

Here's an example of what I am thinking about. This thread discusses a resale in which a lien has been filed against the deed prior to sale:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/purchasing-resale-lien-what-does-it-mean.3936973/

This almost certainly means that the seller has not kept their Dues current while the property was listed, and while Disney is not happy (the lien is filed) the seller still owns the deed. In a trust model, when an owner misses a monthly payment or two, Disney can unilaterally claw the points back. No need to wait for a sale to go through to make it current; they can just reclaim and resell the points immediately if they choose to.

 

[Spivey378]

Resale restrictions combined with the trust get even more interesting. Resale restrictions limit you to the home resort. Does the trust make anything (Points owned by the trust) in the trust, your home resort. Does trust ownership pass with resale? Would a resale trust buyer have access to:
A. the entire trust points and all points at your "home" resort
B. only non-trust at the "home resort", or
C. just all trust points, independent of "home resort"?

There are 4 groups of points:
Trust points at "home resort"
Non trust points at "home resort"
Trust points at "non-home resort"
Non trust points at "non-home resort"

My general understanding was with the trust, you really would not have a "home resort", you would have 11 month privilege at all the points in the trust. If you still had a "home resort" in the trust, at 11 months you would have access to all rooms (points) at your home resort and the rooms (points) owned by the trust at other resorts at 11 months, but not the rooms (points) at other resorts, which are not owned by the trust.

Adding resale restrictions makes it even more complicated. Exact trust wording will be critical.

 

[BeachClub2014]

What's going to happen in 2060 to those of us that bought the newer resorts? Are we only going to have access to those select few?

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer, but I don't think things have dramatically changed with CFW in the new Trust model.

If your points were purchased directly from DVC, or resale pre-2019, then they will still be used the same way. If points were purchased resale post-2019 then again, nothing has changed given CFW will have resale restrictions. At least that is my understanding.

 

[mamaofsix]

In my personal opinion, they are not going to use the trust on current resorts like Riv, Aulani, Poly 2, etc.

It's far more likely they'll only use the trust on brand new future resorts. Cabins and other resorts going forward. It would be way too complicated to have Poly2, Riv, etc. have some owners as part of the trust and some not. I think we're over-complicating this.

 

[davidhr]

I honestly don’t see the point of freaking out about this at this moment. Some things you have mentioned might be true, but at this point we don’t know how this would work. Stressing out about it won’t do you any good lol.

I’m personally not stressing out about this until we get the full details. I still think this won’t have a significant impact for current owners/resorts. But that’s just what I think.

 

[Sandisw]

My understanding of how this would work is that owners in the " Trust" can only book up to the number of points in a particular resort that the trust " owns direct". So just because the Trust has points in say BWV but only 10K points, once these are "booked" by members they are " sold out" for that year. This should have minimal to no impact on people who own direct points for booking at the 11 month window since the Trusts points are also direct points. What I do see happening is that you are going to get a lot of disappointed members of the trust who all want the same popular resort where there isn't enough points for everyone so if you think "walking" a reservation is bad now it is going to become an Olympic event.

After reading what has been posted, I am much more confident that there I’ll not be adding partial units from sold out resorts…

I don’t think they can because the units need to be defined in the trust plan created for those units. And there is not a way to include fractional units that are also owned by others.

So, I think any future inventory that becomes part of the trust and has its own trust plan will be new units, never sold deeded, even if part of a current resort like Poly, RIv, etc.

 

[Sandisw]

In my personal opinion, they are not going to use the trust on current resorts like Riv, Aulani, Poly 2, etc.

It's far more likely they'll only use the trust on brand new future resorts. Cabins and other resorts going forward. It would be way too complicated to have Poly2, Riv, etc. have some owners as part of the trust and some not. I think we're over-complicating this.

I’m not so sure. I think they could very likely add units, especially Poly tower which is an entirely new building with all units that can be sold that way.

In practice, it doesn’t really change a thing but the booking. And if the inventory is kept separate…only full units to the trust that have not yet been declared…then there is no confusion.

The good thing is that we won’t have to wait long because Poly tower will go on sale this year so if they plan to sell those units differently, we should know within the next 6 months or so.

 

[Nabas]

I’m guessing that an important reason for the trust is to sell Aulani points. Otherwise, it could be a decade or longer before that sells out.

By placing the remaining points in the trust, they can package those points with other DVC resorts, advertising them as (for example) Fort Wilderness and Aulani points.

 

[walt34]

By placing the remaining points in the trust, they can package those points with other DVC resorts, advertising them as (for example) Fort Wilderness and Aulani points.

This is why I was wondering how this would work with restrictions: the CFW documents seem to suggest, that resale points can only be used at CFW (as it is with RIV, VDH). If this is the case, they cannot sell them as CFW+Aulani trust points. They'd need to be either CFW or Aulani, because this is what they revert to after the clock strikes midnight - err - when the contract is resold.

 

[New Mouse]

Could this also have to do with the OKW extension debacle? Is this an easier way out when 60 years hits?

 

[kilik64]

Occam's razor.

I think @Brian Noble has the right of it. All this other speculation sounds like nonsense to me. Really sounds like they are going to a trust model for future resorts to make it way simpler and easier to get points back for resale as direct points. Sounds way simpler and cheaper vs the current model.

So yea I'm team each new association going forward will be a trust for that resort only, and this talk of a multi resort trust is just wild speculation.

Will be interesting to see who is right

 

[intamin]

Maybe I misread or misunderstood, but I thought based on this new information that each new resort will be a separate "Trust Use Plan" within the Trust? It's not necessarily confirming that you will have access to every Trust resort in the 11-month window, but rather confirming that you are purchasing a "Right to Use" rather than a deeded ownership interest?

Booking periods and home resorts could theoretically remain the same as we know it.

So basically nothing changes except you no longer own deeded real estate and any and all new points they have can basically have restrictions placed on them. Does it really make any difference from an owner's perspective or does it simply make it easier for them to move points around to sell since they're no longer attached to a particular unit?

 

[MyDogTink]

While reading the docs, I’m getting the feeling that the day-to-day structure isn’t much different than the current structure. I agree with others that the shift may be for the purpose of an easier and quicker foreclosure process.

Correct me if I’ve incorrectly interpreted the docs. It appears to have a Master Trust. Within the Master Trust, individual trusts will be eatablished (first and only one being the CFW sub-trust). Each sub-trust has its own MFs (as opposed to our earlier speculation that interests in varying resorts would be combined into one trust and share MFs). Documents also state that future expansion at FW may be part of the FWC sub-trust or could be a new, additional sub-trust).

Sub-trusts owners have an allotment of vacation points. Booking windows, banking, borrowing, etc. seem to be the same as the current deeded ownership structure. Members of deeded ownership resorts and CFW sub-trust owners have the same ability to book at home resort and non-home resort.

It would be interesting to see a marked document comparing the CFW trust docs vs. say RIV docs. I’d be curious to see if the major differences are just references to the “trust” concept and defaults (which brings us back to this is just a structure change allowing DVD greater flexibility in foreclosure).

I am surprised at 35% of points being allocated to fixed weeks. I never realized that so much could be allocated to fixed weeks.

 

[Genie+]

Occam's razor.

I think @Brian Noble has the right of it. All this other speculation sounds like nonsense to me. Really sounds like they are going to a trust model for future resorts to make it way simpler and easier to get points back for resale as direct points. Sounds way simpler and cheaper vs the current model.

So yea I'm team each new association going forward will be a trust for that resort only, and this talk of a multi resort trust is just wild speculation.

Will be interesting to see who is right

If DVC wants to put CFW in the Trust and sell it any time soon, they won’t get much action with just CFW while it takes 5 or 10 years to add enough brand new resorts to make multi-home resort priority worthwhile to buyer.

That’s why I’m leaning toward them starting out with a mix from currently active resorts.

I’m also thinking about the way they flipped BPK in VGF. Doing so at other resorts might work well for the Trust, and even possibly try that with a moderate. Grand Destino with Club Level? Hmmm, that would make for an interesting addition.

 

[Hubalorian]

Occam's razor.

I think @Brian Noble has the right of it. All this other speculation sounds like nonsense to me. Really sounds like they are going to a trust model for future resorts to make it way simpler and easier to get points back for resale as direct points. Sounds way simpler and cheaper vs the current model.

So yea I'm team each new association going forward will be a trust for that resort only, and this talk of a multi resort trust is just wild speculation.

Will be interesting to see who is right

I agree. Each resort will be a mini trust apart of the larger trust. The mini trust allows them to restrict them to the one resort if sold on the resale market. However, if you buy direct, you get the 11 month booking window at the mini trust (“home resort”) and every other resort in the larger trust. That’s my prediction

 

[Sandisw]

I honestly don’t see the point of freaking out about this at this moment. Some things you have mentioned might be true, but at this point we don’t know how this would work. Stressing out about it won’t do you any good lol.

I’m personally not stressing out about this until we get the full details. I still think this won’t have a significant impact for current owners/resorts. But that’s just what I think.

I think the new documents make me more confident that current inventory doesn’t go into the trust.

an

This is why I was wondering how this would work with restrictions: the CFW documents seem to suggest, that resale points can only be used at CFW (as it is with RIV, VDH). If this is the case, they cannot sell them as CFW+Aulani trust points. They'd need to be either CFW or Aulani, because this is what they revert to after the clock strikes midnight - err - when the contract is resold.

They actually could and here is how I think it could work.

Let’s say they add a trust plan for AUL units. That plan is added and it amends the current plan for CFW to say buying direct gets you access to both in a interchangeable way, but you still buy your interest in one of the plans for resale purposes

 

[intamin]

If DVC wants to put CFW in the Trust and sell it any time soon, they won’t get much action with just CFW while it takes 5 or 10 years to add enough brand new resorts to make multi-home resort priority worthwhile to buyer.

That’s why I’m leaning toward them starting out with a mix from currently active resorts.

I’m also thinking about the way they flipped BPK in VGF. Doing so at other resorts might work well for the Trust, and even possibly try that with a moderate. Grand Destino with Club Level? Hmmm, that would make for an interesting addition.

I thought about this as well, this could be the start of how DVC - moderate level starts. If you put the "new" moderates into a trust you've essentially created 2 separate DVC systems.

 

[walt34]

Let’s say they add a trust plan for AUL units. That plan is added and it amends the current plan for CFW to say buying direct gets you access to both in a interchangeable way, but you still buy your interest in one of the plans for resale purposes

I understand how this can technically work, in practice it would make the sales pitch just a bit more difficult. 'You get home resort advantage at both of these resorts but for resale purposes, you own at one'. Bringing up resale as a subject is probably not something guides like to do. At the same time, it is probably not more difficult to explain than the current door knob spiel ('you technically own a door knob but it gives you 100 points'). It's just one aspect more that requires explanation.

 

[Hubalorian]

I understand how this can technically work, in practice it would make the sales pitch just a bit more difficult. 'You get home resort advantage at both of these resorts but for resale purposes, you own at one'. Bringing up resale as a subject is probably not something guides like to do. At the same time, it is probably not more difficult to explain than the current door knob spiel ('you technically own a door knob but it gives you 100 points'). It's just one aspect more that requires explanation.

I would be surprised if a guide even talks about resale restrictions and would only mention them if the buyer was educated enough to know about them in the first place. I doubt now, if you go to a RIV sells pitch they bring up being locked into this one resort if sold on the resale market.

 

[kneely58]

It would be interesting to see a marked document comparing the CFW trust docs vs. say RIV docs. I’d be curious to see if the major differences are just references to the “trust” concept and defaults (which brings us back to this is just a structure change allowing DVD greater flexibility in foreclosure).

Here you go