From 0 to 26.2 .... running the Disney marathon

[Dolce27]

Injury Update: It's only been 3 weeks (tomorrow) since I ran the marathon. (oops! I think that I said 2 weeks in another post. Oh-well.) It feels like forever and this sitting around is killing me. I decided to go ahead and have a sports doctor check-out the injury. My leg is mobile enough for everyday activity but I still feel enough "twinges" (for lack of a better word) to know that it's still injured and should I attempt to run, it'll just flare back up.

I went to the doctor on Thursday. I didn't really care much for him and actually, didn't speak to him much. He had very little to say about it and I found out later as to why: He's one of the doctors that thinks most people would care less about options such as physical therapy (b/c of cost) and his advise to people like me: Don't ever run again.

Seriously.

They took x-rays, he put them up. I didn't know what I was looking at. He didn't have much to say. He left.

Fortunately a physical therapist who's currently working under this doctor to finish up his PA, and who works as a therapist at a nearby clinic, was the first one to examen me before the doctor came in. Since the doctor knows that most runners are stubborn and won't willingly take the advice to stop running, he told David, the therapist, that I'm all his. Which is fine. Because I'm going to run and this doctor just needs to get over it.

I met with David at the therapy clinic yesterday morning at 6:00 am. It was basically a free session. He checked out a few other things such as: he found out that my left SI (I think he called it SI) cuff is rotated forward which has made my left leg slightly longer than my right and may have contributed to my IT band injury as more stress was being put on the left leg. Using muscle resistance techniques, he pretty much managed to rotate my SI cuff back into proper position. He took me out to show me how to properly use a foam roller (which I previously bought after my injury but didn't know how to use) He went over a few other things that we'll do should I do full therapy with him and then he ended up taking out these metal things that remind me of a set of doctor's scalpels (but without blades or any sharp points) and began working at the knotted up scar tissue from my injury. Needless to say: that area of my knee is nothing but one big bruise at the moment and my IT band has done nothing but hurt non-stop since yesterday morning.

I did manage to clear everything with insurance. It's more b/c I haven't hit my deductible yet... but this is what savings acct's are for. Therapy is expensive, which is why this doctor is more willing to tell people just never run again rather than to go and do it. But therapy costs money and money has to come from somewhere to pay for the facility, hire the staff, purchase and maintain the equipment. Unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees (I keep searching for that money tree!) So, I guess that I've made a decision that I'm now a runner. Between the expense of all the running gear that I've purchased this last 6 months and now for therapy so that I can run distance again: I think I now can officially say that I'm a dedicated runner.

David wants four sessions with me, twice a week. He told me to not run at all right now. He thinks four sessions will be enough to heal my IT band. I really need to strengthen my core (back to all of those missed pilate and yoga sessions I should have completed). The cool thing is: he told me that this facility does have one of the Alter-G treadmills. Here's a link to someone's blog for full description:

http://shellibelly.com/2009/10/11/day-33-the-alter-g-treadmill/

I think that this woman was talking more about the benefits of it helping overweight people become more active but it's great for the injured as well. You'll take the stress off of the injury, to prevent it from worsening, and can still run for conditioning and muscle memory. So, I think that I'll get to try this thing out before I finish therapy. It'll be cool.

So, hopefully in a couple more weeks I'll be running outdoors again.

 

[Pongo53]

Hi Dolce!
I've heard so many people with unreceptive doctors. If you can't find one that runs, then you may have to rely on the therapist. You may also want to investigate the procedure the Marines use. My son is an Fa/18 pilot, but he went through both regular Marine boot camp and OCS. He said that when they have a recruit or candidate that has ITB syndrome, they COMPLETELY immobilize them for three days, and use the RICE routine (rest, ice, compression and elevation. It gets them going again right after their break. You have to ice numerous times during the day, and it is not easy, but it beats not being able to run. We'd really like to see you beat this thing and get back to doing what you want to do. (I seem to have beaten my ITB probs with elastic bands worn about 3 or 4 inches above my knees).

We will run Austin in two weeks, and I'm hoping my wife will place in her age division (60's). Again I'm just going to try to survive and be in the middle of my age group--the 55-59s. Hill training this weekend was tough, and I feel worse after twelve miles of hills than I did after the whole Disney, 26 degrees or not! (It was mid thirties for our hill training). So this will be our second marathon ever and second in a month, but I feel like I let my wife down by getting her stuck in the rear (we were corral G but i mismanaged parking and we started somewhere at the back of H--25 minutes of people in front of us. So I'm hoping even with the hills, she'll get the time she worked so hard for for the Disney.

Are you going to run White Rock Lake if you get over the ITB problems? I used to bicycle around it as a child when I lived in Dallas, and would love the thought of running it. I lived near Abrams and Lovers Lane (Dan D Rogers elementary!)

 

[aharbin88]

As for the love to run: check that you're not going out too fast. Running gets old quick if you're starting out too fast and burning out. When I'm at the right pace for me, I can relax, I'm not breathing hard and I can enjoy the sights around me and think. If I'm trying to run too fast, I'm already having labored breathing one mile in and I can't focus on anything but the run.

Back off on your pace. You'll naturally pick-up your pace w/o speed-work the longer you run. Do this: Go out to a marked trail/path/whatever. Take a stopwatch. Start the stopwatch at mile 1 and then hide it from your sight.

Don't at it for anything.

Begin running and work to keep at a pace that you feel comfortable at. If your breathing starts to become labored, back off. Run as far as you can and hopefully you'll be able to stop on a mile marker. If you can only do 1 mile at this point, that's fine. Try to get to mile two if you can at this point. Then stop and look at the stopwatch. If you've only done 1 mile, than that's your current pace. If you've done two or more miles, toss that time into an online pace calculator like the one found here: http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/4/4_1/96.shtml That will give you your avg pace. As a new runner, don't worry about speed work yet. Just worry about learning to run distance. Keep at this pace and go from there.

Two of the things that I learned this past year as a new runner: 1) The longer I ran, I naturally picked my pace for shorter runs. I can now do what? 3 - 4 miles at a 8 1/2 minute pace before burning out and I had to teach myself to start out at my normal pace of 9'1 - 9'3. 9'3 was my body's comfortable pace when I first began learning how to run. 2) The higher mileage your run, you'll have to slow your natural pace down a little bit. Mine didn't slow down much, but - I don't know - maybe once I was hitting 15 mile or more runs, I was slowing down at the beginning to save energy for that high of milage.

This is something that you have to figure out and learn as part of your training. Now that my body is trained for distance, I'm going to focus on some speed work this year but first you just need to focus on training for distance.

That's good advice. Honestly, though, I'm not sure it's my pace. I think my cardio fitness is just in the toilet. I never realized how out of shape I am, but once I thought about it, I realized that I have never done much cardio work. I've never been a big exerciser, but even when I did work out, I did weights and yoga/Pilates, not cardio. After I run, my muscles aren't tired, nor am I sore the next day, but I'm soooo worn out. I'm running my neighborhood, and it has some hills that I'm running, and that's where I really notice that I'm struggling. When I'm running the flats, I still lose my breath a bit, but I'm able to recover during the walking phase. When I have to run the hills, I can't recover. After that first hill run, I'm constantly trying to catch up with my breathing. Once the weather warms up and I can take my girls out running with me, I can go somewhere flat to work on distance. At this point, I'll just be happy to make it back to the house without being totally red-faced and out of breath!

I know that newbie runners probably shouldn't be tackling hills right off the bat, but it's really the only choice I have until the weather improves. I figure the good side to this is that, by the time I *do* start running flats, I'll really impress myself! I'm getting the harder stuff in early!

I guess that I'll admit to having passed 29. People for some crazy reason think that I'm still in my early 20's confused3 I don't see it but if they're crazy enough to believe it... who am I to argue) At the age of 27 I planned a huge 30 b-day at Disney. 11 days at the Boardwalk Inn, Illuminations cruise, the whole works! I decided if I'm turning 30, it darn well was going to be at the Happiest Place on Earth (similar philosophy to this marathon Jan 10: If I'm running 26.2 miles, it's darn well going to be at the Happiest Place on Earth! ) So, in a weird way, I was looking forward to my 30th b-day because it was a huge bash that I saved up to spend lots of $$$ on at Disney. But no one told me about 31! You mean, my age continues to climb past 30?! And I don't even want to think about 32 at the end of this year. Going off to cry now....

30 (I mean, the 1st anniversary of my 29th birthday) was really tough for me. But, I have to admit that 31 was tougher. It was hard on me to say I was 30, but it was even worse to say that I was IN my 30s! I'm guessing 32 won't be quite so traumatic. I'll find out soon enough!

VERY important for a runner to strengthen and stabilize their core. My biggest mistake. Going into my training last August, I had good intentions of doing both on my non-running days as cross-training. But, running four times/week, working a full-time job, ect... guess what I always talked myself out of doing? Big mistake.

I really think I can stick to a yoga/Pilates program. Since I have young girls at home, I can do some videos while they're napping, and the yoga/Pilates ones are the most enjoyable for me. I'm not sure how you feel about doing workout videos at home, but if you like it, or at least don't mind it, you should check out Ellen Barrett.
http://www.ellenbarrett.com/
You can find cheaper prices on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ellen+barrett&x=0&y=0

I really like these videos. She's a fantastic instructor. I just wish I lived closer to Connecticut so I could take a class from her in person!

I am going to try a new video called Yogolosophy by Mandy Ingber soon. www.mandyingber.com. She's Jennifer Aniston's yoga instructor. If she can make me get within 50 miles of that body, then it will be money well spent!

I just tossed those miles out as a starting point for me. I'm currently in off-season since I'm not training for anything at this moment. The official 2011 marathon training will not start until 16 weeks out from the marathon. After you do a marathon, you're supposed to take a week or so off from running to allow your body recovery and then slowly get back in. Here's the thing about double-digit runs: they're tough on the body. Almost all (there are a few exceptions) marathon training plans have you only train up to mile 20 before you taper. You don't run the 26 miles until race day.

I was reading an article on Runners World and the reason for this: All runs over (I think they said) 16 miles seriously increases your chance of injury. That high of miles is really rough on the body. Now, people do it all the time. I can direct you to a website with some seriously hard-core runners that constantly do 20-something mile runs.

I have no desire to be that hard-core of a runner. I enjoy running now and I want keep it up for both the mental physical rewards that it brings. But, unless I'm training for a marathon, I don't expect to run anything more than 10 miles on a week-end for a long run and 4 -6 miles for a week-day run. I'll be running just to keep fit and conditioned, not to build for a long distance race.

Now that I'm off running, injured: Yes, I'll have to start out with really low miles to build back up. I've now been off running 2 weeks (tomorrow) and am losing my conditioning. It's going to be another 2 -3 weeks before I'll be allowed to run again (more about that in a minute). 8 - 10 mile runs is nothing to me now, either physically or mentally. I think (but still a newbie runner here) that will help me to maintain a strong base so that I'll easily be able to build back up next August when I switch back into a marathon training schedule but not be too tough on my body. I'm still learning what all works for my body.

That makes sense. I had heard that you shouldn't run a marathon to prepare for a marathon. That seemed odd to me until I heard about how rough that mileage can be on your body. I have no desire to be that hard core. I would like to run a marathon at some point, just to say I did it, but I can't imagine running like that regularly. [/QUOTE]

I plan to do a 1/2 marathon again this Nov and I will need that time for corral placement for the 2011 Disney Marathon. I also plan to run the Dallas Turkey Trot in Nov. It's the largest Turkey Trot in the nation. I believe there were close to 40k running it this last Nov. You have the option to run a 5k or the 8 mile. I ran the 8 mile with chipped time last November. I might see about a couple of 5k's this fall. I don't have any desire to run anything in Texas summers. Originally I wanted to do the new Rock n' Roll 1/2 this March. It's the inaugural but two things are preventing me from doing that: 1) I'm injured and can't train right now 2) It's on March 14 and I work for a CPA firm. March 15 is a major tax deadline and I can promise you that on Sunday, March 14, I will be at work. Actually, about 5 of us at work wanted to run this 1/2. Why can't the IRS be accommodating and move that stupid deadline for us?? (mean government! )

I looked at a local running club's website this weekend, and there are tons of 5Ks around here all through the year. I think I'm going to pick one to run around April so I can see how I like competing and running a long (for me) distance at one time.

Really, the only thing I read was 'Run Your First Marathon: Everything You Need to Know to Make It to the Finish Line' by Grete Waitz (she's won the NYC marathon numerous times). Most of my info came from internet research. Also, one of the partners at my firm is a runner. She's done full-marathons but now sticks primarily to 1/2 marathons. She's also mentored people in full-marathons before so when I have a new training idea or need advice on how my training is going, I'll run thing past her.

I follow KidaniKatie on Twitter (I wonder if she's on the DIS?), and she recommended The Non-Runner's Marathon Trainer to me. I bought it on Amazon, but I haven't gotten it yet. I am hoping to adapt it to training for a half.

Shoes are IMPORTANT! Seriously, the wrong shoe can cause you injury. Don't train too far before being properly fitted. My first shoes that I was fitted for were Nikes and they were under 100.00. Shoes should be #1 on your list for running.

I looked at a shoe finder on Runner's World's website, and it recommended a few that were reasonably priced. I will probably buy some soon. I ran in my Merrell's on Monday, I can tell they need to be replaced.

It's different for everyone. You'll figure it out fast - I promise! When I first started - and I was only at the 3 mile range at this point - I had problems with this one area that my sports bra was rubbing at (it was the strap area) and also on underside of one arm. I'd put bodyglide there but after awhile, those spots no longer bothered me. Primarily, I use it for my feet. It's prevented me from getting blisters. I put it all over my feet and heels and up toward my ankles and I only run in wicking socks that I purchase at the running store. Blisters can knock you out of running.

NOW -for a bit more "delicate" info that some readers might want to skip... (I'll let you know when you can read again)....
*****
There's one guy on this board who is a runner. I was looking at his WISH journal. He has chafing in a very awkward area for him that he spoke of specifically in his journal. I do advise him to purchase some bodyglide. I'm not a guy and that just sounded painful.

Your butt checks.. yes, that's another problem area. And it will cause blood. There are two options: only run in compression underwear or shorts/tights where you're not wearing normal underwear. Armour (Under Armour - http://www.underarmour.com/shop/us/en/womens <--link to their website. Search for the underwear section. I'm not going to directly link to that.) has underwear designed for running that should help prevent chafing. You will get wedgies from running distance and that will create chafing. I ran in non-compression running capris and running pants for training (but I ran in compression tights for the actual marathon) so I had to wear regular underwear. Buying a second thing of bodyglide designated for that one spot - and only that one spot - was cheaper than buying a few pairs of the expensive Armor underwear. *ahemI.renamed.it.buttglide.ahem*

Ouch. I hadn't thought of that. Eek. Under the arm is a good one, though. That definitely makes sense, especially right where the top of the bra strap hits. Sometimes that spot bothers me even when I'm not running. I will definitely be buying some bodyglide!

I used the C25k podcasts as it helped for someone to tell me when to run and when to walk vs trying to track that myself on a watch or stopwatch. Good luck to you with the program. It worked for me. Like I said, work on your pace. The huffing and puffing is probably just that you're a newbie and you haven't learned how to control your pace yet. You'll do fine. I promise! I expect to see you at Disney for 2011

I ran the C25K program for the first time on Monday. I liked it a lot more than the 5K 101 program I was doing at first, probably because the C25K app lets me use my own music, instead of that crappy remixed techno stuff.

I have one more question for you. When I ran on Monday, we were 2 days off from an 8 inch snowfall. It was bitterly cold when I ran. When I came back into the house, I started sneezing my head off and my nose was running like crazy. It still is! My DH and I figure it's because the air is so cold and dry and I'm sucking so much of it in that it's drying me out and my body is over compensating. Did you have anything like this happen to you when you were training in the cold? I figure I need to run in a ski mask or something, but I'm not sure how the neighbors will feel about seeing someone running through the subdivision wearing a ski mask!

 

[eyor44]

Hey Dolce
How are you doing with therapy? I'm so glad you decided to go ahead and go. Hopefully this therapist will be able to completely heal your IT. FOLLOW HIS DIRECTION!!!!! (I'm trying to use Mama Sandy's voice here that she used with Maroo) There are 11 months until the Full and 9 until the 1/2 you want to do in November. You'll make it.

Don't feel bad about having to start low on your training. I'll be right there with you. Some how my foot still hurts, its getting better, but I can only do 4 miles at a time right now. I might could do more, but I'm not pushing it. I know once the weather warms up, my foot won't bother me at all, so I am trying to patiently wait. Darn that Groundhog Phil for seeing his shadow.

Main Street - I too had built up Main Street in my mind. I couldn't wait for it. Problem for me, Christmas music was playing (now I love Christmas music, but I was so looking forward to Main Street music) and people with bells and clappers. When I am tense, I have a very hard time with noise. All I wanted to do was get to the end and away from the noise. Main Street was kind of a let down for me.

Clif Bloks - I so love Clif Bloks. I am partial to the strawberry and orange. You are very right about learning what your body needs during training and not changing it during the marathon. I could see where that could be a big mistake. My friend took some stuff she had never used before during the marathon and while it didn't make her sick afterwards, she did feel "funny" and it took a while for her to get back normal again.

What is the "out and back" you kept refering to? Where is that located? with only doing the 1/2 I didn't read any of the full reports from last year.

Love the report you did. So full of information. I had tossed around the idea of trying the Full, but I think I'm gonna stick with the 1/2 for next year.

 

[Pongo53]

Eyor44: I think the "out and back" is what my wife and I call "the hairpin": the section where they have us run down toward the sports complex, make a tight 180 degree and run right back, somewhere between AK and HS (formerly MGM). I think someone was on the p.a. system telling us we only had 10k to go at that point.
My observation at that part of the circuit, other than the demoralization of having to run somewhere and then come right back, was that some people cut the course, crossed the cones, and did not go all the way to the actual turn. I'm sure they got their finisher medal, but since there was a timing strip at the hairpin, I'm wondering if they did not receive an official time, and thus were excluded from the results. Anyone know? I did not see anyone stop them from doing this, and I only saw a few do it, but I wasn't really looking.

At least when we are there for the Princess 1/2, my wife won't have to run that section. Next to the water treatment section that was my least fave part of the circuit.

 

[Dolce27]

Hi Dolce!
I've heard so many people with unreceptive doctors. If you can't find one that runs, then you may have to rely on the therapist. You may also want to investigate the procedure the Marines use. My son is an Fa/18 pilot, but he went through both regular Marine boot camp and OCS. He said that when they have a recruit or candidate that has ITB syndrome, they COMPLETELY immobilize them for three days, and use the RICE routine (rest, ice, compression and elevation. It gets them going again right after their break. You have to ice numerous times during the day, and it is not easy, but it beats not being able to run. We'd really like to see you beat this thing and get back to doing what you want to do. (I seem to have beaten my ITB probs with elastic bands worn about 3 or 4 inches above my knees).

We will run Austin in two weeks, and I'm hoping my wife will place in her age division (60's). Again I'm just going to try to survive and be in the middle of my age group--the 55-59s. Hill training this weekend was tough, and I feel worse after twelve miles of hills than I did after the whole Disney, 26 degrees or not! (It was mid thirties for our hill training). So this will be our second marathon ever and second in a month, but I feel like I let my wife down by getting her stuck in the rear (we were corral G but i mismanaged parking and we started somewhere at the back of H--25 minutes of people in front of us. So I'm hoping even with the hills, she'll get the time she worked so hard for for the Disney.

Are you going to run White Rock Lake if you get over the ITB problems? I used to bicycle around it as a child when I lived in Dallas, and would love the thought of running it. I lived near Abrams and Lovers Lane (Dan D Rogers elementary!)

I'm supposed to be icing right now - but I'm having trouble finding the time to do so. But I'm trying!

Good luck to you and your wife for your race! Please let me know how you do. I don't plan to run White Rock. It's only a couple of weeks before Disney and I don't want to do two marathons back to back like that. I do plan to run the Dallas Running Club's 1/2 again this year - which takes place out at White Rock. It's kind of a "let's get ready for White Rock next month!" sort of thing.

 

[Dolce27]

I'm running my neighborhood, and it has some hills that I'm running, and that's where I really notice that I'm struggling. When I'm running the flats, I still lose my breath a bit, but I'm able to recover during the walking phase. When I have to run the hills, I can't recover.

Hills are part of your problem. They're everybody's problem. But you are correct that if you condition your body for hills, you'll do a lot better on flats. ... and if you ever decide that you want to qualify for Boston - keep practicing on those hills!

30 (I mean, the 1st anniversary of my 29th birthday) was really tough for me. But, I have to admit that 31 was tougher. It was hard on me to say I was 30, but it was even worse to say that I was IN my 30s! I'm guessing 32 won't be quite so traumatic. I'll find out soon enough!

If you figure out how to make the years stop, please let me know. It sounds like I'm less than a year behind you. *sigh*

, you should check out Ellen Barrett.
http://www.ellenbarrett.com/
You can find cheaper prices on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ellen+barrett&x=0&y=0

Thanks! I'll check these out.

I am going to try a new video called Yogolosophy by Mandy Ingber soon. www.mandyingber.com. She's Jennifer Aniston's yoga instructor. If she can make me get within 50 miles of that body, then it will be money well spent!

Umm, yeah. Off to purchase this as well.

I looked at a shoe finder on Runner's World's website, and it recommended a few that were reasonably priced. I will probably buy some soon. I ran in my Merrell's on Monday, I can tell they need to be replaced.

I'll stress again about shoes and distance: it's not about purchasing a good shoe (they're almost all good shoes) It's about purchasing the right shoe for you. The way your foot strikes the ground is unique to you. I highly recommend that you go to a store and be fitted by someone trained to fit shoes. They will watch you walk and jog. Different shoes are designed with support in different areas. The shoe finder over on Runners World does ask you about your motion mechanics, ect. But do you know? I didn't know for me. I can't see how my foot strikes the ground when I'm running. So, again, I'll recommend that for your first time you go to an actual store and be fitted. Discuss everything with them about how your foot strikes, why they're pulling these type of shoes out for you, ect.. Also note, that you need a shoe about 1/2 size larger than what you normally wear because of foot swelling when you run. Things like that make a difference. -- But this is just my advice.

I ran the C25K program for the first time on Monday. I liked it a lot more than the 5K 101 program I was doing at first, probably because the C25K app lets me use my own music, instead of that crappy remixed techno stuff.

Good job! I hope that you've been able to continue. I didn't mind the music for the most part. I normally listen to dance and some techno music. There were a couple of weeks that the music sucked. I used it as motivation to hurry up, complete that week and move on to the next.

I have one more question for you. When I ran on Monday, we were 2 days off from an 8 inch snowfall. It was bitterly cold when I ran. When I came back into the house, I started sneezing my head off and my nose was running like crazy. It still is! My DH and I figure it's because the air is so cold and dry and I'm sucking so much of it in that it's drying me out and my body is over compensating. Did you have anything like this happen to you when you were training in the cold? I figure I need to run in a ski mask or something, but I'm not sure how the neighbors will feel about seeing someone running through the subdivision wearing a ski mask!

No, I never had this happen to me. I sometimes see runners out with their mouths covered but I never, regardless of how cold, wanted my mouth/face covered. Then, again, this is Texas. I never had to deal with temp's any colder than the upper 20's for a run.

I really don't know what to tell you. Maybe it has to do with the fact that your breathing is still off. Based upon what you've said, you're still having some cardio difficulty with running and perhaps you were, like you suspect, sucking in too much of that cold, dry air. Are you still having problems?

 

[Dolce27]

Hey Dolce
How are you doing with therapy? I'm so glad you decided to go ahead and go. Hopefully this therapist will be able to completely heal your IT. FOLLOW HIS DIRECTION!!!!! (I'm trying to use Mama Sandy's voice here that she used with Maroo) There are 11 months until the Full and 9 until the 1/2 you want to do in November. You'll make it.

Don't feel bad about having to start low on your training. I'll be right there with you. Some how my foot still hurts, its getting better, but I can only do 4 miles at a time right now. I might could do more, but I'm not pushing it. I know once the weather warms up, my foot won't bother me at all, so I am trying to patiently wait. Darn that Groundhog Phil for seeing his shadow.

Main Street - I too had built up Main Street in my mind. I couldn't wait for it. Problem for me, Christmas music was playing (now I love Christmas music, but I was so looking forward to Main Street music) and people with bells and clappers. When I am tense, I have a very hard time with noise. All I wanted to do was get to the end and away from the noise. Main Street was kind of a let down for me.

Clif Bloks - I so love Clif Bloks. I am partial to the strawberry and orange. You are very right about learning what your body needs during training and not changing it during the marathon. I could see where that could be a big mistake. My friend took some stuff she had never used before during the marathon and while it didn't make her sick afterwards, she did feel "funny" and it took a while for her to get back normal again.

What is the "out and back" you kept refering to? Where is that located? with only doing the 1/2 I didn't read any of the full reports from last year.

Love the report you did. So full of information. I had tossed around the idea of trying the Full, but I think I'm gonna stick with the 1/2 for next year.

Hey girl! Like Pongo53 said: the out and back is after you leave the AK and you run down the road, almost to the Sports Complex, make a u-turn and run back up the road. It's boring as anything and it takes about a full mile to complete. It stinks when you first begin it because you're passing right by everyone ahead of you ... and you know they're ahead of you. I didn't see anyone cheat the course, like Pongo did. I see how people could be tempted but as Pongo said - there was a chip mat at that u-turn. Anyone who cheated didn't touch that mat. I'm sure they did get their finisher's medal but I bet they don't have a time. Maybe some of the 8,000 that didn't finish were people who did this and were disqualified from the race?

The thing about running, unless you're an Elite (which I'll never be), is that it's really a race against yourself. It's you and the road. Only the Elite's need to stress if someone is cheating the course and pulls ahead of them since they're actually trying to race each other to the finish line. The rest of us just want to finish. And each race is a PR against your last race. Since I had to walk 1/2 of the 2010 injured, I should definitely have a PR for 2011.

I went back to the therapist on Monday for an official eval. The thing is: the guy that I'll be working with is finishing up his PA. That's how I met him: he's working under the doctor (that I went to last week) right now to complete his degree. I will be doing my therapy with him but for insurance purposes, I had to have a full evaluation with an already licensed therapist. I was looked at by him and he told me to ice, ice, ice! (I'm trying! I do have an ice bag right now but I'm having trouble putting it on my knee while I sit at the computer). He's cleared me to do the exercise bike for cardio - but that's it. Nothing else. Due to a mix-up, I didn't get a schedule worked out with the receptionist (she's not there when I'm there - too early. I'm having to play the phone thing to work out insurance with her and schedules. I haven't yet figured out when/how I'll pay for my sessions).. but long story short: I won't go back until Monday morning to officially begin my therapy sessions.

I'm hoping to be able to run within the next 2-3 weeks. I have a friend whose unsuccessfully attempted to run distance for a few years now. Apparently her attempts keep ending in complete failure. Listening to her, I think that she goes out too fast and pushes herself too hard and then gives up after awhile in frustration. I've gotten her to agree to do the C25k program and I'll do it with her. I told her that I'll need to start out slow to get back into running and I'll coach her. I really want her to do the Disney 1/2 in Jan but I suspect that by the time she gets to a 5k and has enough confidence in herself to train for a 1/2 marathon, the Disney half will be closed to registration.

Well, I'm glad that you'll be back next marathon week-end! We'll all have to do another meet-up. It was great to meet some of my online friends this past January.

 

[eyor44]

Eyor44: I think the "out and back" is what my wife and I call "the hairpin": the section where they have us run down toward the sports complex, make a tight 180 degree and run right back, somewhere between AK and HS (formerly MGM). I think someone was on the p.a. system telling us we only had 10k to go at that point.
My observation at that part of the circuit, other than the demoralization of having to run somewhere and then come right back, was that some people cut the course, crossed the cones, and did not go all the way to the actual turn. I'm sure they got their finisher medal, but since there was a timing strip at the hairpin, I'm wondering if they did not receive an official time, and thus were excluded from the results. Anyone know? I did not see anyone stop them from doing this, and I only saw a few do it, but I wasn't really looking.

Thank you for the explanation. I had never heard that mentioned before. Why would people cheat? You are really just cheating yourself and to go all the way and possibly not get an official time? Perhaps they were new and didn't realize it.

The thing about running, unless you're an Elite (which I'll never be), is that it's really a race against yourself. It's you and the road. Only the Elite's need to stress if someone is cheating the course and pulls ahead of them since they're actually trying to race each other to the finish line. The rest of us just want to finish. And each race is a PR against your last race. Since I had to walk 1/2 of the 2010 injured, I should definitely have a PR for 2011.
I was just tense because it was new and I was trying to take everything in while not getting in anyone's way. I too hope to have a better time next year. I was very disappointed in my official time. Not at all what I normally do.

I won't go back until Monday morning to officially begin my therapy sessions.
that therapy goes well

I'm hoping to be able to run within the next 2-3 weeks. I have a friend whose unsuccessfully attempted to run distance for a few years now. Apparently her attempts keep ending in complete failure. Listening to her, I think that she goes out too fast and pushes herself too hard and then gives up after awhile in frustration. I've gotten her to agree to do the C25k program and I'll do it with her. I told her that I'll need to start out slow to get back into running and I'll coach her. I really want her to do the Disney 1/2 in Jan but I suspect that by the time she gets to a 5k and has enough confidence in herself to train for a 1/2 marathon, the Disney half will be closed to registration.
I too have another friend who wants to do the half. I am going to give her a print out of one of the schedules you had mentioned on the other thread. I am going to use it also to follow and just keep starting over until Fall when I need to really get into training mindset.

Well, I'm glad that you'll be back next marathon week-end! We'll all have to do another meet-up. It was great to meet some of my online friends this past January.

I was hoping the same thing. I so enjoyed our dinner together.

 

[MEK]

I really enjoyed reading about your marathon experience. I have been running since my late 20's and I just turned 50. I know I will never run a full marathon, but I have always thought that the Disney half marathon would be so cool. A 1/2 marathon is the most I've ever done....a hilly half marathon. Bottom line...you have really inspired me to think about doing a Disney race sometime. I love running there when I am on vacation and it would be so neat to run through the parks.

I love how you remembered so many details. I love how you described your highs and lows. I used to do a lot of long distance biking and it sounds so similar - especially the hitting the wall experience......not fun!

Anyway - congrats on your accomplishment. You have many more years of running ahead of you. My best running was when I was in my thirties. The runners high - so awesome. And congratulations on your total lifestyle change.

 

[Snappy in OK]

Thank you to everyone who has posted about their experiences!! I just started running last May (did a C25K class at the Y). My sister (2 yrs younger) had run her 1st full marathon in San Francisco 2 1/2 years earlier, and had been telling me that we should run a 1/2 together sometime. She lives in WI, and I am in OK. After finishing the C25K class, the Y started a 15k program - and I did that. After I did my 1st 15k at the end of October, my sister came to OK 3 weeks later to join me in my 1st 1/2 marathon! I am not a fast runner by any means, but my goal was to finish in under 3 hours. I did it!! I finished in 2 hrs 50 min!!

Dolce - thank you for all of the information/thoughts/experiences you have written about. I appreciate the information, and really enjoyed reading your posts. I hope your ITB heals so that you can get back to running, and soon!! I have told my sister that I want to run at Disney one of these days, so I appreciate the info.

I am now training for my 2nd 1/2 marathon at the end of April, and I have been looking at the Disney 1/2 marathons to see what works best for timing. I would love to do the marathon weekend, but DH is not able to take off in January (busy season at work ). I am now looking at the 2011 Princess or Wine & Dine (assuming both will continue).

Good luck to everyone running - whether you have been running, or are just getting started. I am at the point where if I don't run a few times a week, I miss it!!

 

[danmoss]

My new years resolution for this year is to run the Disney 2011 marathon (my first) and I have been looking for a good discussion ever since without any success. I am so glad I found yours. So many details and so many hints I would never have thought of.

I also do a lot of running by myself, the biggest problem I find is trying to find a spot without too much traffic to do my long weekend runs, I hate running in circles about as much as I hate running on treadmills. I am starting my racing adventure this year with a 14K this weekend and hope to slowly build up to the Disney in January. I just hit 10 1/2 miles this weekend and my knees ached pretty good, but a couple ice paks later and they felt ok. Hopefully this will be the extent of my training injuries.

I have not got into the energy gels or paks yet, but could see how they could be useful, I started to feel sluggish around mile 8 this weekend. Is there a calculation you use based off of body size to figure out how much to consume or is it trial and error?

Again thank you very much for starting this thread, look forward to sharing progress with everyone!!!

 

[Pongo53]

Dolce posted so many great memories from her run, I'm going to share some random memories. At my age (29 for the 29th time), random memories seem to be the best I can do. More evidence of this at the end of the post.

This was our first marathon, and while we'd run a few 5k's--including the Komen Houston with over 32,000 entrants (most of whom were walkers, and thus behind us), nothing prepared me for the mass of people for the start. When I did finally reach the start strip (some 25 minutes after the gun) I forgot to start my Garmin watch. I realized this within a hundred yards or so, and hit the start button, but can you imagine how disappointing it would have been to get back with no data! My wife's more advanced Garmin acted up, seemed to not be working, so she ran the whole marathon without any idea of her pace. She has the 405CX and the bezel touch is really touchy--I think it got upset when she took off a layer of clothing. It did record her data--but the screen had gone blank on her. I bought her a 310xt so she will not have this problem in Austin. Anyone else have probs with a 405? (I use her old 305, and its fine for me).

Also near the start, I think I may have walked the better part of the first mile, as my walking pace just about matched the running pace of those in front of me, and it was so crowded, passing seemed silly. I'm not a tall guy, either--just 5'6" and not especially long legs. Things would pick up soon enough, I reasoned. But for all that calm, I still had a problem: not sure if it was the walking or the temperature, but I had to stop and massage out a cramp just before getting to spaceship earth, and feared my day was done. But a short stop and it never happened again. Lucky for a change!

Random memories from out on the course:
--the unexpected slope of the banking on the 270 degree downhill ramp between Epcot and WDW;
--the lengthy lines at porta potties all along the course;
--the wonderful volunteers who braved the cold to hand us water, powerade, and good wishes. Some of them looked soooo cold! I felt especially sorry for one wonderful woman at the water stop just after the transportation center--she was bundled up and had a scarf wrapped around her face, and you could just see her eyes. Yet there she was, shivering and handing out drinks to us. She had very kind eyes.
--running by Stitch's Great Escape and wishing I could stop in the store and get some Stitch item for my daughters
--seeing a McDonalds from an overpass in the later stages of the race, and recalling a blog from a previous year in which the writer actually ran over to it and got a hamburger!
--my own off-course excursion about mile six, when i found a porta-potty without a line, but I had to go about 70 yards out of the way to get to it. Funny, I went all my training miles without ever having to make a stop like that. The cold? Race nerves? Gypsy curse?
--seeing a sign that said a particular area was a land preserve for conservation or something, and it was carpeted with discarded drink cups. *sigh*
--running through AK without ever catching sight of the tree of life. How could I have missed it?
--getting slightly claustrophobic feeling at MGM (whatever its called now) in the costuming tunnel
--getting slightly sick from the smell of the discarded chocolate at the food stop in MGM (and I LOVE chocolate)
--seeing two little girls cheering the runners on outside of AK, holding out their hands to us for a "low five" (they were about the size of CindyLou Who...), slowing down and touching their hands softly and thanking them, then seeing their surprised faces---that kept me going strong)
--all the wonderful spectators who called encouragement to me by name--what nice people!
--crossing the finish line strong--but not too strong

Okay, so here's my "Senior Moment" After the race and out into the parking lot, I was searching for our car, which I'd noted earlier, about 3:40am to be near the end of row E. Near two RVs. I got to where the car was supposed to be, and nothing. Really nothing. The dark Ford SUV it was parked next to was there, but no Tink. (Tink is our car, which is really hard to miss. She is a pearl white SUV, with Tinkerbell "perfect pixie" license plate frames, the phrase "Powered by Fairydust" in green on the rear glass, and a Tinkerbell sticker on the rear window. Also, the antenna topper is the Mickey-ear ice cream with a bite taken out of one ear.) So eventually the usual panic of losing your car, billfold, change of clothes, etc. sets in, and then I'm joined by my wife, who I assumed had finished an hour ahead of me and had not been able to find the car either. We got Disney security to help, and after another hour, when I was telling him it had been parked on row E, he said they had numbered rows, not lettered. I'd spotted a sign that was parking lot E and those signs were at the ends of several rows. Our car turned out to be just where we'd parked it, quite a way away from where I was looking, on another row E. And there was still a dark Ford SUV parked next to it. The RVs were a bit farther away than I'd remembered, though. It would have been funny, but Perdita was shivering still from the hypothermia, and it was a very long time before the heater in the car got her back to normal. If I had not been so disoriented from the run, perhaps I could have found it. But it was not my shining moment. I still feel really guilty about not being able to get her into the car and warmed up properly. Maybe next year we will invest in VIP tent tickets or I should probably leave a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car.

Since it was so cold for the half the day before, it would have been nice if they could have set out a few warming tents for runners who had to wait for family members to finish before going to the monorail or other transportation.

But on the whole, what a fantastic experience for a first marathon for us! Thanks to everyone who made it so great, especially the volunteers and the polite runners!

 

[eyor44]

I really enjoyed reading about your marathon experience. I have been running since my late 20's and I just turned 50. I know I will never run a full marathon, but I have always thought that the Disney half marathon would be so cool. A 1/2 marathon is the most I've ever done....a hilly half marathon. Bottom line...you have really inspired me to think about doing a Disney race sometime. I love running there when I am on vacation and it would be so neat to run through the parks.

January was my very first race 5K and 1/2. Loved it! Despite the weather, being at Disney was incredible.

After I did my 1st 15k at the end of October, my sister came to OK 3 weeks later to join me in my 1st 1/2 marathon! I am not a fast runner by any means, but my goal was to finish in under 3 hours. I did it!! I finished in 2 hrs 50 min!!

Congrats to you on making your goal.

I also do a lot of running by myself, the biggest problem I find is trying to find a spot without too much traffic to do my long weekend runs, I hate running in circles about as much as I hate running on treadmills.

I have not got into the energy gels or paks yet, but could see how they could be useful, I started to feel sluggish around mile 8 this weekend. Is there a calculation you use based off of body size to figure out how much to consume or is it trial and error?

I have the same problem with traffic. Constantly getting off the road really messes with my time. I mostly use the track and do get bored at going round and round. Just remember for distant on a track to reverse direction periodically.

For the gel packs, yes, trial and error. I use the clif bloks and first couple of times I took 3 bloks at once and realized it was too much. I dropped back to 2 and it worked fine. Also, it is suggested that you drink water with them. So you also need to figure out how much of that. I started out taking them around mile 7, but then once I got over 10 miles, I would take them at miles 5 & 10. I think Dolce takes them a little bit different.

Okay, so here's my "Senior Moment" After the race and out into the parking lot, I was searching for our car, which I'd noted earlier, about 3:40am to be near the end of row E. Near two RVs. I got to where the car was supposed to be, and nothing. Really nothing. The dark Ford SUV it was parked next to was there, but no Tink. (Tink is our car, which is really hard to miss. She is a pearl white SUV, with Tinkerbell "perfect pixie" license plate frames, the phrase "Powered by Fairydust" in green on the rear glass, and a Tinkerbell sticker on the rear window. Also, the antenna topper is the Mickey-ear ice cream with a bite taken out of one ear.) So eventually the usual panic of losing your car, billfold, change of clothes, etc. sets in, and then I'm joined by my wife, who I assumed had finished an hour ahead of me and had not been able to find the car either. We got Disney security to help, and after another hour, when I was telling him it had been parked on row E, he said they had numbered rows, not lettered. I'd spotted a sign that was parking lot E and those signs were at the ends of several rows. Our car turned out to be just where we'd parked it, quite a way away from where I was looking, on another row E. And there was still a dark Ford SUV parked next to it. The RVs were a bit farther away than I'd remembered, though. It would have been funny, but Perdita was shivering still from the hypothermia, and it was a very long time before the heater in the car got her back to normal. If I had not been so disoriented from the run, perhaps I could have found it. But it was not my shining moment. I still feel really guilty about not being able to get her into the car and warmed up properly. Maybe next year we will invest in VIP tent tickets or I should probably leave a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car.

Since it was so cold for the half the day before, it would have been nice if they could have set out a few warming tents for runners who had to wait for family members to finish before going to the monorail or other transportation.

I too was disoriented at the end of the race. We had tickets to the race tent, but after I got my medal and started walking in what I thought was the correct direction, I couldn't figure out which tent it was. I think the fact I was so cold and wet didn't help. I just wanted to get warm. I finally found it with a little help from a randomly very nice person.

 

[Dolce27]

I really enjoyed reading about your marathon experience. I have been running since my late 20's and I just turned 50. I know I will never run a full marathon, but I have always thought that the Disney half marathon would be so cool. A 1/2 marathon is the most I've ever done....a hilly half marathon. Bottom line...you have really inspired me to think about doing a Disney race sometime. I love running there when I am on vacation and it would be so neat to run through the parks.

I love how you remembered so many details. I love how you described your highs and lows. I used to do a lot of long distance biking and it sounds so similar - especially the hitting the wall experience......not fun!

Anyway - congrats on your accomplishment. You have many more years of running ahead of you. My best running was when I was in my thirties. The runners high - so awesome. And congratulations on your total lifestyle change.

Thanks! Sign-up for the 2011 1/2 and come join us in January.

Thank you to everyone who has posted about their experiences!! I just started running last May (did a C25K class at the Y). My sister (2 yrs younger) had run her 1st full marathon in San Francisco 2 1/2 years earlier, and had been telling me that we should run a 1/2 together sometime. She lives in WI, and I am in OK. After finishing the C25K class, the Y started a 15k program - and I did that. After I did my 1st 15k at the end of October, my sister came to OK 3 weeks later to join me in my 1st 1/2 marathon! I am not a fast runner by any means, but my goal was to finish in under 3 hours. I did it!! I finished in 2 hrs 50 min!!

Dolce - thank you for all of the information/thoughts/experiences you have written about. I appreciate the information, and really enjoyed reading your posts. I hope your ITB heals so that you can get back to running, and soon!! I have told my sister that I want to run at Disney one of these days, so I appreciate the info.

I am now training for my 2nd 1/2 marathon at the end of April, and I have been looking at the Disney 1/2 marathons to see what works best for timing. I would love to do the marathon weekend, but DH is not able to take off in January (busy season at work ). I am now looking at the 2011 Princess or Wine & Dine (assuming both will continue).

Good luck to everyone running - whether you have been running, or are just getting started. I am at the point where if I don't run a few times a week, I miss it!!

Good luck to you in April! One of these years, sneak off and do a quick solo trip in Jan so that you can do marathon week-end. dismagiclover, who posted earlier in this thread, completed a TR http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2371909 She and a friend left the families at home and went for quick trip to run the 1/2 together.

I'll never be able to do the Princess or the Wine & Dine. I work for a CPA firm and both of those 1/2's are during busy season for us.

 

[Dolce27]

My new years resolution for this year is to run the Disney 2011 marathon (my first) and I have been looking for a good discussion ever since without any success. I am so glad I found yours. So many details and so many hints I would never have thought of.

I also do a lot of running by myself, the biggest problem I find is trying to find a spot without too much traffic to do my long weekend runs, I hate running in circles about as much as I hate running on treadmills. I am starting my racing adventure this year with a 14K this weekend and hope to slowly build up to the Disney in January. I just hit 10 1/2 miles this weekend and my knees ached pretty good, but a couple ice paks later and they felt ok. Hopefully this will be the extent of my training injuries.

I have not got into the energy gels or paks yet, but could see how they could be useful, I started to feel sluggish around mile 8 this weekend. Is there a calculation you use based off of body size to figure out how much to consume or is it trial and error?

Again thank you very much for starting this thread, look forward to sharing progress with everyone!!!

Well, then, I can’t wait to see you in 2011. You do need to learn how to fuel properly if you're moving up into double digit runs. Like I posted earlier, cliff shot blocks worked the best for me. Per my pace, I began taking them at mile 4 and then every 3 miles after. I would take two blocks at a time. I only take them with water - no power aid. So far in both training and the full-marathon, it has worked. I've shown no signs of hitting the wall. Use this to play around with and get an idea of which miles you should begin taking aid at per your pace: http://www.clifbar.com/play/pace_band/
(the pace band is set-up for a full-marathon finish time. The yellow highlighted miles show which miles to take aid at.)

My goal is to do a 4:00:00 marathon for 2011. Per this, I’ll need to adjust which miles I take aid at since I’ll be hitting the miles a little faster than I did when training for 2010. You will have to play around and adjust for your body. If you felt sluggish at mile 8, I advise taking two cliff shots at mile 4. You want to begin taking aid before you feel the need to do so. The point is to never feel sluggish.

I wanted to add: I run in a park with a 2 mile loop. I don’t mind circles – it’s actually been helpful to me to run them. It has helped me to finish higher mileage with mind games and I’m able to relax and get lost in thought more because I’m familiar with my surroundings. I also don’t have your traffic problem.

 

[Dolce27]

Random memories from out on the course:
--the unexpected slope of the banking on the 270 degree downhill ramp between Epcot and WDW;
--the lengthy lines at porta potties all along the course;

ack! those were bad!

--the wonderful volunteers who braved the cold to hand us water, powerade, and good wishes. Some of them looked soooo cold! I felt especially sorry for one wonderful woman at the water stop just after the transportation center--she was bundled up and had a scarf wrapped around her face, and you could just see her eyes. Yet there she was, shivering and handing out drinks to us. She had very kind eyes.
--running by Stitch's Great Escape and wishing I could stop in the store and get some Stitch item for my daughters
--seeing a McDonalds from an overpass in the later stages of the race, and recalling a blog from a previous year in which the writer actually ran over to it and got a hamburger!
--my own off-course excursion about mile six, when i found a porta-potty without a line, but I had to go about 70 yards out of the way to get to it. Funny, I went all my training miles without ever having to make a stop like that. The cold? Race nerves? Gypsy curse?

I know! What was up with that?!? Same for me.

--seeing a sign that said a particular area was a land preserve for conservation or something, and it was carpeted with discarded drink cups. *sigh*
--running through AK without ever catching sight of the tree of life. How could I have missed it?

I missed that as well.

--getting slightly claustrophobic feeling at MGM (whatever its called now) in the costuming tunnel

The tunnel of doom

--getting slightly sick from the smell of the discarded chocolate at the food stop in MGM (and I LOVE chocolate)

It grossed me out as well - I'd forgotten about that.

--seeing two little girls cheering the runners on outside of AK, holding out their hands to us for a "low five" (they were about the size of CindyLou Who...), slowing down and touching their hands softly and thanking them, then seeing their surprised faces---that kept me going strong)
--all the wonderful spectators who called encouragement to me by name--what nice people!
--crossing the finish line strong--but not too strong

Thanks for sharing those.

 

[danmoss]

Well, then, I can’t wait to see you in 2011. You do need to learn how to fuel properly if you're moving up into double digit runs. Like I posted earlier, cliff shot blocks worked the best for me. Per my pace, I began taking them at mile 4 and then every 3 miles after. I would take two blocks at a time. I only take them with water - no power aid. So far in both training and the full-marathon, it has worked. I've shown no signs of hitting the wall.

My goal is to do a 4:00:00 marathon for 2011. Per this, I’ll need to adjust which miles I take aid at since I’ll be hitting the miles a little faster than I did when training for 2010. You will have to play around and adjust for your body. If you felt sluggish at mile 8, I advise taking two cliff shots at mile 4. You want to begin taking aid before you feel the need to do so. The point is to never feel sluggish.

I wanted to add: I run in a park with a 2 mile loop. I don’t mind circles – it’s actually been helpful to me to run them. It has helped me to finish higher mileage with mind games and I’m able to relax and get lost in thought more because I’m familiar with my surroundings. I also don’t have your traffic problem.

Thanks for the info, I will stop by the running store and see about getting some cliff bloks. My wife got me some chocolate Rok bloks a while back just for the heck of it and they were blahhhhhh. A 4:00 that is a good goal, I was thinking of somewhere between 4:00 to 4:30. My motto is slow and steady.

J
I have the same problem with traffic. Constantly getting off the road really messes with my time. I mostly use the track and do get bored at going round and round. Just remember for distant on a track to reverse direction periodically.

For the gel packs, yes, trial and error. I use the clif bloks and first couple of times I took 3 bloks at once and realized it was too much. I dropped back to 2 and it worked fine. Also, it is suggested that you drink water with them. So you also need to figure out how much of that. I started out taking them around mile 7, but then once I got over 10 miles, I would take them at miles 5 & 10. I think Dolce takes them a little bit different.

I am hoping spring comes soon so I can get out to some of the local parks, unfortunately all the parks have dirt trails and are really muddy right now.

Doe anyone use a waterbelt when they run? I bought a camelbak, but after it gets about halfway low I don't like how it sloshes around.

 

[dismagiclover]

Does anyone use a waterbelt when they run? I bought a camelbak, but after it gets about halfway low I don't like how it sloshes around.

I use a Fuel Belt which works great. It also has a pocket for my gel

 

[eyor44]

Dolce
How is therapy going?