FP+ doesn't make lines longer.

[IamGroot]

You said:



I bolded the "Now, you just get them in advance." (them = FP+ for the hottest attraction, given the structure of your statement).

I am saying that there is *no* guarantee that you can get a FP+ for the hottest attraction in advance.

I was online when my 60 day window opened. I tried to get just 1 FP+ for the hottest attraction (A&E) - and there was no availability at all during my trip. None. I'm not talking about inconvenient times...just zero. And even subbing the A&E cancellation thread, and trying multiple times/day, I have yet to be able to get even 1 FP+ for A&E during my stay.

I did manage to get FP for A&E for my friends who are there the week after we are, finally..but again, not at their 60 day window. At their 60 day window it was unavailable. In their case, though, subbing the cancellation thread here turned out to be useful and I managed to arrange "trades" with some other DISers.

You made a statement of fact that you just get your FP+ for the hottest attractions in advance now, instead of day of. My point, just so we're clear, is that that is not a fact..it is not a guarantee. You can do your homework, you can be online right at 60 days, and you can stalk the DIS/MDE and sometimes you *still* can't get even 1 FP+ for the hottest attraction, because when that window opens you are no longer accessing a full days worth of FP+. People whose vacation overlaps yours, but starts earlier, start depleting the FP+ pool before you're even eligible to book your FP+.

Just so we're clear, are you saying you aren't able to ride the rides you want now?

 

[AndreaA]

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

Except the playing field is in fact less level than it ever has been before! Before, on site or offsite, the early bird caught the worm (or rode the rides with minimal wait) as is true in much of life.

Now, those with the money to a)stay on site and b)stay for longer periods of time, get an enormous advantage over those staying off site and a modest advantage over those with shorter trips.

And all this talk of zero sum game is such a bunch of crap. Yes, the number of seats and fast passes is the same, but in the past, many of the seats on the non-E rides remained unused! If we are all supposed to be celebrating that more people are now riding BTMRR once via FP and then riding IASM and POTC instead of getting in line for BTMRR again, well sorry, I'm not. If people had truly wanted to ride all the walk on rides in the past, that choice was certainly open to them. No, now they are more or less "forced" to ride them (or wander aimlessly) while they wait for their next FP+ time, or "tricked" into choosing them as FP+ options not realizing that prior to this whole roll-out those lines were walk ons.

 

[itchin2go]

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

Hit the nail on the head.

I'll be honest. I'm primarily worried about me and my family, not the average vacationer. I think FP+ has caused increased standby wait times nearly across the board, and we thrived on riding standby early in the A.M. We also knew how to use FP- to our advantage, but we primarily rode standby. I worry how the changes are going to affect my vacation. Does that make me a horrible person?

 

[Angel Ariel]

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

Wow. Talk about a blanket judgment of people. What you describe may describe some people who dislike FP+ - I'm sure it does. It doesn't describe us all.

 

[disneyfav4ever]

I disagree, it does make certain lines longer. A line is a line, and the fact is that ride that used to be a 10 - 15 minute wait is now a 30+ minute wait.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Just so we're clear, are you saying you aren't able to ride the rides you want now?

That isn't what I said, and I made what I was saying quite clear. You stated that booking a FP+ for the "hottest attraction" was just done in advance now, instead of at RD. I am only saying that that isn't a guarantee.

Of course there is always the SB line...well, unless Disney is doing a FP+ only test for [insert hottest attraction here] during the trip. No way to know that in advance, though, since Disney isn't announcing them.

 

[wisblue]

I disagree, it does make certain lines longer. A line is a line, and the fact is that ride that used to be a 10 - 15 minute wait is now a 30+ minute wait.

If you look at the Touring Plans study that I linked earlier in this thread, that is not a fact if you compare lines at the same time of day with a comparable crowd level. In that study, some rides have longer lines and some have shorter lines but none of them have an average increase of more than 10 minutes.

 

[IamGroot]

I don't know how it's possible, but you've read the reports too, right? MOST attractions have increased standby wait times.

Yes. But let's use our thinking caps and figure out what is happening.

More people are riding POTC now because they are getting assigned FP for it. Obviously when you add a FP line, SB will be slower. But when you have more people standing in a line at POTC , they aren't in a line at one of the mountains. This makes the true E ticket rides have an overall lower wait because the typically low wait rides now have more traffic.

Keep in mind this concept is based on a flat attendance. Clearly attendance is rising, which is true culprit for fewer rides per day.

While FP+ might increase your wait on POTC, it will not reduce the number of rides you can do in a single day.

 

[IamGroot]

That isn't what I said, and I made what I was saying quite clear. You stated that booking a FP+ for the "hottest attraction" was just done in advance now, instead of at RD. I am only saying that that isn't a guarantee.

Of course there is always the SB line...well, unless Disney is doing a FP+ only test for [insert hottest attraction here] during the trip. No way to know that in advance, though, since Disney isn't announcing them.

So what's the point then? Do you get a gold star for riding something via a FP?

You still get your multiple FPs, you can't still ride whatever you want. I don't see the point of your argument other than you really want to hold that digital piece of paper.

 

[WillAustin]

So unless attendance is up, or people are riding more rides, waits cannot increase.

Attendance is up. And the rides don't exist in a vacuum, so theoretical analysis of wait times is just guessing anyway. Headliners still have long waits as they always have, and rides that never had waits now do. That's just a fact.

 

[AndreaA]

I just looked at some charts over on easywdw which compared wait times now vs then (2013) same dates.

The overall decrease in SB time was 45min.

The overall INCREASE in SB time was 85min.

So yeah, if your intent was to ride all headliners via FP+, or even SB then congrats! your wait has gone down.

However, if you have young kids or just don't ride all the coasters, too bad, your wait has doubled, which almost certainly WILL affect how many rides a person can do in a day.

For example, in my case, we only ride BTMRR with a FP. Let's assume I choose that, PP and Pooh, knowing that standby waits for both of those are going to increase a lot faster than they used to. It takes me twenty minutes to ride those (which is exactly what it would have taken in the old system, in the morning) but now instead of spending 20min to ride teacups, dumbo, barnstormer, speedway, I'm spending 15min for EACH. Tell me again how wait times can never increase?

 

[Angel Ariel]

So what's the point then? Do you get a gold star for riding something via a FP?

You still get your multiple FPs, you can't still ride whatever you want. I don't see the point of your argument other than you really want to hold that digital piece of paper.

I've told you what I was responding to 3 times now. You're choosing to ignore it.

I was attempting to have a civil conversation. I haven't been rude to you.

 

[itchin2go]

Yes. But let's use our thinking caps and figure out what is happening.

More people are riding POTC now because they are getting assigned FP for it. Obviously when you add a FP line, SB will be slower. But when you have more people standing in a line at POTC , they aren't in a line at one of the mountains. This makes the true E ticket rides have an overall lower wait because the typically low wait rides now have more traffic.

Keep in mind this concept is based on a flat attendance. Clearly attendance is rising, which is true culprit for fewer rides per day.

While FP+ might increase your wait on POTC, it will not reduce the number of rides you can do in a single day.

2 things: (1) I don't know if the "thinking caps" language is intended to be provocative, but that's how it's coming off.

(2) As to the bolded, sure, I can do the same number of rides in one day, but not in the same amount of time as I used to. Looking at the wait times being posted on easywdw.com, my TOTAL WAIT TIME this year for the same rides I rode last year sure looks like it's going to increase.

And maybe the whole thing FP/Standby ratio is evening out for the park and the crowd as a whole, but as to me, I firmly believe that my wait times are going to increase over and above what they used to be pre-FP+. And I hope that I'm wrong, but looking at the available data, I don't see how that's possible.

 

[mesaboy2]

What is the point indeed.

 

[flicx]

I would agree that with paper FP if you went right to one of the attractions that had FP as soon as the park opened you could get a FP for that attraction. Of course, it was a matter of luck whether that FP return time was one you could use without disrupting your preferred touring plan.

For example, if I went right to Space Mountain at opening the return time might be for an hour later. But, an hour later we would want to be on our way to Frontierland for the rides there. It made more sense to just ride and move on. If we hung around Tomorrowland for an hour or more to use the SM FP, the standby lines and FP return times for BTMRR and Splash Mountain would really be inconvenient.

So, yes, getting ONE FP for a ride of your choice was a FACT, but that didn't make it an ADVANTAGE.

Thank you, that is the point I was trying to make. If you wanted to ride something you weren't going away empty handed. That however is a very real possibility now(meaning no fast pass). I perceive that as an advantage, you don't, so be it. I have no problem with that. I was simply stating you could guarantee it!

 

[IamGroot]

What is the point indeed.

Manbearpig

 

[itchin2go]

I just looked at some charts over on easywdw which compared wait times now vs then (2013) same dates.

The overall decrease in SB time was 45min.

The overall INCREASE in SB time was 85min.

So yeah, if your intent was to ride all headliners via FP+, or even SB then congrats! your wait has gone down.

However, if you have young kids or just don't ride all the coasters, too bad, your wait has doubled, which almost certainly WILL affect how many rides a person can do in a day.

For example, in my case, we only ride BTMRR with a FP. Let's assume I choose that, PP and Pooh, knowing that standby waits for both of those are going to increase a lot faster than they used to. It takes me twenty minutes to ride those (which is exactly what it would have taken in the old system, in the morning) but now instead of spending 20min to ride teacups, dumbo, barnstormer, speedway, I'm spending 15min for EACH. Tell me again how wait times can never increase?

Regarding the bold, I was going to make the same point. If you're riding all of those middle of the road rides which used to be walk-ons or had minimal wait times, I fail to see how your TOTAL WAIT TIME will not increase.

If you used to wait 60 minutes for, say, Space Mountain, then maybe it evens out. However, if you (a) never went to Space Mountain or (b) used a FP- for Space Mountain, or (c) rode Space Mountain at rope drop with a minimal wait, then I don't see how you get the benefit of that counterbalance.

 

[IamGroot]

2 things: (1) I don't know if the "thinking caps" language is intended to be provocative, but that's how it's coming off.

(2) As to the bolded, sure, I can do the same number of rides in one day, but not in the same amount of time as I used to. Looking at the wait times being posted on easywdw.com, my TOTAL WAIT TIME this year for the same rides I rode last year sure looks like it's going to increase.

And maybe the whole thing FP/Standby ratio is evening out for the park and the crowd as a whole, but as to me, I firmly believe that my wait times are going to increase over and above what they used to be pre-FP. And I hope that I'm wrong, but looking at the available data, I don't see how that's possible.

Not intending to provoke. Just getting very annoyed with people saying "well pirates has a longer wait, so obviously everything is broken and disney is ruined".

The point of this thread was simply to point out that the parks aren't spiraling out of control, and that the commonly held criticism that FP+ somehow increases wait times makes no sense for the vast majority of guests.

 

[IamGroot]

Regarding the bold, I was going to make the same point. If you're riding all of those middle of the road rides which used to be walk-ons or had minimal wait times, I fail to see how your TOTAL WAIT TIME will not increase.

If you used to wait 60 minutes for, say, Space Mountain, then maybe it evens out. However, if you (a) never went to Space Mountain or (b) used a FP- for Space Mountain, or (c) rode Space Mountain at rope drop with a minimal wait, then I don't see how you get the benefit of that counterbalance.

Then you are using your FPs on those middle of the road lines, and since they aren't as popular, you can easily get them day of, and can probably even get a 4th, 5th, 6th,if you really want. And by doing that, you will make those lines longer for SB people, thus reducing waits on big attractions.

*queue circle of life music*

*drops mic*

 

[itchin2go]

Not intending to provoke. Just getting very annoyed with people saying "well pirates has a longer wait, so obviously everything is broken and disney is ruined".

The point of this thread was simply to point out that the parks aren't spiraling out of control, and that the commonly held criticism that FP+ somehow increases wait times makes no sense for the vast majority of guests.

And THIS may very well be true (don't know, really, but it's entirely possible). It just doesn't make me feel any better about my own upcoming vacation. And if that makes me selfish, well ... ok.