faithinkarma
<font color="green">I'm not a good swimmer, but I
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I think the point of the Caroline Kennedy comment was her request that Bush stop comparing himself to Kennedy. To which I would say DUH !
For Kerry Supporters Only
- Thread starter Lebjwb
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crazyforgoofy
Finally - Isabella's forever Mom! 9/08/05
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Very insightful!
Disney Princess 6
<font color=purple>I'm Eeyore's human counterpart
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I feel so alone! I thought I was the only one voting for Kerry. No one that I know is - except DH.
I have to say, I hope he wins, but I don't hold out much hope for it.
I have to say, I hope he wins, but I don't hold out much hope for it.
Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
Actually I'm from what our two U.S.Senators call Miss-oor-UH!
You know the state where a dead man beat John Ashcroft for U.S. Senate.
Six days? I have GOT to get busy and find a new dealer, er I mean small business owner.
Can you imagine losing to a corpse! Only Bush could have that individual as Attorney General.
Btw, great news, FIK.
And as far as the Bush supporters realization Bush is going to lose, it's starting to hit them big time. All that fear, all that hate, all that name calling, all that wrapping themselves in the flag, all for nothing. Oh how sweet it is.
Have you watched the gyrations they use to explain the missing 380 TONS of explosives. They're spinning so fast, one of them is going to do themselves an injury. Now the Pentagon is looking for a photo from a spy satellite (which one Bush supporter told me we didn't have that capability) to prove convoys were driving away from Al-Qaqaa. Gee, begs the question, if they knew it was a despository for explosives, and trucks were taking it way, why didn't the Bush administration do something about it. Oh, I forgot, what could the poor, misunderstood, victim of his staff do as COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
You can't make this stuff up.
Island_Lauri
DIS Veteran
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Hope is on the way!!
crazyforgoofy
Finally - Isabella's forever Mom! 9/08/05
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Do you read TomPaine.com? Here's what David Corn wrote today:
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/iraq_heartache.php
Iraq Heartache
David Corn
October 27, 2004
This past Saturday I was in the green room in the Reuters television studio overlooking Times Square, waiting with others to appear on the Dutch equivalent of Nightline , and it felt like my heart was going to explode. I was staring at Cathy Heighter. Her 21-year-old son Raheen, an Army private, was killed when a convoy in which he was riding outside Baghdad was attacked. Sitting across the room from Heighter was Ivan Medina, a 23-year-old veteran who served in Iraq. His twin brother, Irving, an Army specialist, was killed in Baghdad when his convoy struck an improvised explosive device. I tried to envision their sense of loss. Medina, a co-founder of Iraq Veterans Against the War, handed me a business card that had on it his brothers photograph and an American flag. Heighter offered me a magnet bearing the image of her son and the address for a scholarship fund created to honor him. It was not possible to fathom fully their bottomless grief.
In the room and the adjoining hallway, other guests milled. I spotted Dan Senor, the former spokesman for the U.S. authority in Iraq. There was a Republican lawyer who spins for the White House. There was a member of the anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets outfit that was spending millions of dollars on attack ads against John Kerry in order to keep George W. Bush in office. All in one setting: the victims of George Bush and Bushs lieutenantsthere to discuss calmly and reasonably the war in Iraq and the upcoming U.S. election. I wanted to scream.
Before me was one price of Bushs war in Iraqor 0.18 percent of it. I did the math, multiplying the suffering in this room by the tens of thousands of relatives and friends of Americans whose lives ended too early in Iraq. I added in the pain and misery of those wounded in Iraq and their families. And none of this included the suffering on the Iraqi side. In terms of past wars, the number of killed and wounded U.S. troops in Iraq has not loomed large, but the collective grief I was imagining seemed overwhelming.
If Bush had been in the room, I would have had the strong urge to throttle him and ask, Was it absolutely, 100 percent, without any doubt, necessary for these people to lose their loved ones? Before the invasion, Bush said the primary reason for war was to address the direct, immediate and gathering threat Saddam Husseins regime presented. And Iraq was such a threat, Bush asserted, because it possessed biological and chemical weapons and a revived nuclear weapons program and because it was dealing with Al Qaeda. None of that has proven true. The Duelfer report concludes that Hussein had neither WMDs nor any active WMD programs (and that Husseins WMD programs were in a state of decaythat is, de-gathering). The 9/11 Commission and the CIA found no evidence of an operational relationship between Husseins government and Al Qaeda. There was no pressing threat that required a war. There was plenty of time to pursue other options. In fact, the inspections and sanctions had worked. These days, Bush hails the war in Iraq as an essential part of an overall crusade to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East. But that is not how he sold the invasion originally. The main reason for which those two menand othershave died was bunk. Bush failed the most solemn obligation of his office: to order men and women to their death for good cause and only if there is no other choice.
I confess: I find it increasingly difficult to be civil about this. I certainly can argue politely and passionately with conservatives about welfare reform, school choice, faith-based initiatives, tax cuts, antiballistic missile defense. I can see how people of good faith might disagree in good faith over these contentious issues. But I am losing my patience with anyone who refuses to acknowledge that Raheen Heighter, Irving Medina and many others died under George Bushs false pretenses. And given that the war in Iraq was indeed an elective war, I want to grab advocates of the war by the lapel and say, Unless youre willing to put your buttor that of a precious son or daughterin an unreinforced Humvee in Iraq, why should anyone die for your and Bushs assertion that the war in Iraq is essential for Americas safety?
What compounds the ill will I feel for Bush and the war-backers is the manner in which Bush discusses the war while campaigning. Rather than strive for a high-minded and somber debate about the most critical issue of the campaign, he has resorted to cheap shots and derision. He blasts Kerry for advocating pessimism and retreat and for considering terrorism a nuisance, when Kerry merely said is that it would be desirable to reach a day when terrorism is nothing more than a nuisance. (That sounds like a decent goal, particularly when Bush says, "Whether or not we can be ever fully safe isyou knowis up in the air.) Bush claims Kerry would submit U.S. national security decisions to other nations for a veto. At a campaign rally on Monday, he declared that Kerry Believes that instead of leading with confidence, America must submit to what he calls a global test. I'm not making that up That means our country must get permission from foreign capitals before we act in our own self-defense. That is not what Kerry has said. He has explicitly stated he would not allow other governments to block actions he deemed necessary. But he did say that if a U.S. president orders an pre-emptive strike, he ought to do so for a reason that is compelling enough to convince the American public and people abroad. Bush responds to that with mockery based on a falsehood.
Bush has belittled any discussion of the war that is not black and white. For example, he attacked Kerry foreign policy adviser Richard Holbrooke, a former UN ambassador, for saying "We're not in a war on terror in a literal sense" and for calling the so-called war on terrorism a "metaphor" like the war on poverty. "Confusing food programs with terrorist killings reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the war we face," Bush exclaimed, "And that is very dangerous thinking." This is not serious debate about a serious matter: the war in Iraq and the best way to counter the threat of Islamic jihadism. This is a shallow-minded Bush putting politics over all else. Accusing Holbrooke of not knowing the difference between food programs and terrorist killingsthere is a word for that: stupid.
Worse, Bush refuses to acknowledge he sold the war with false information. Even after the Duelfer report was released, Bush insisted Hussein had been a gathering threat. And if the mission in Iraq was, as Bush now describes it, to help Iraq become a free nation in the midst of the greater Middle East, why did he have to invade Iraq on March 19, 2003before the inspections process was done, before more of the United States major allies were recruited for the coalition, before the U.S. troops were fully equipped with body armor and reinforced Humvees, before plans were readied for the post-invasion period and the economic, social, legal, political and security challenges to come?
Bush has not been honest about this war. That means he has not been honest about the immense loss suffered by Cathy Heighter, by Ivan Medina and by thousands of other Americans. What an insult. And those who stand with Bush share in the deceit. They are the masters of war who force others to be their servants of sacrifice. And I appear with them in television studios so we can debate the finer points of the latest developments in Iraq and the so-called war on terrorism. I am not sure if I hate them. But I do despise what they have wrought and what they defend. And I do want to shoutI mean really shoutat them for supporting and enabling the callous miscalculations of a reckless and disingenuous president. But that would make for bad and ineffective television. So I sit politely and wait to have my say, as do Heighter and Medina, and hope that somewhere, somehow, sometime (perhaps even this coming Tuesday) what we say rather than screamas well as what Heighter and Medina feelwill matter.
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/iraq_heartache.php
Iraq Heartache
David Corn
October 27, 2004
This past Saturday I was in the green room in the Reuters television studio overlooking Times Square, waiting with others to appear on the Dutch equivalent of Nightline , and it felt like my heart was going to explode. I was staring at Cathy Heighter. Her 21-year-old son Raheen, an Army private, was killed when a convoy in which he was riding outside Baghdad was attacked. Sitting across the room from Heighter was Ivan Medina, a 23-year-old veteran who served in Iraq. His twin brother, Irving, an Army specialist, was killed in Baghdad when his convoy struck an improvised explosive device. I tried to envision their sense of loss. Medina, a co-founder of Iraq Veterans Against the War, handed me a business card that had on it his brothers photograph and an American flag. Heighter offered me a magnet bearing the image of her son and the address for a scholarship fund created to honor him. It was not possible to fathom fully their bottomless grief.
In the room and the adjoining hallway, other guests milled. I spotted Dan Senor, the former spokesman for the U.S. authority in Iraq. There was a Republican lawyer who spins for the White House. There was a member of the anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets outfit that was spending millions of dollars on attack ads against John Kerry in order to keep George W. Bush in office. All in one setting: the victims of George Bush and Bushs lieutenantsthere to discuss calmly and reasonably the war in Iraq and the upcoming U.S. election. I wanted to scream.
Before me was one price of Bushs war in Iraqor 0.18 percent of it. I did the math, multiplying the suffering in this room by the tens of thousands of relatives and friends of Americans whose lives ended too early in Iraq. I added in the pain and misery of those wounded in Iraq and their families. And none of this included the suffering on the Iraqi side. In terms of past wars, the number of killed and wounded U.S. troops in Iraq has not loomed large, but the collective grief I was imagining seemed overwhelming.
If Bush had been in the room, I would have had the strong urge to throttle him and ask, Was it absolutely, 100 percent, without any doubt, necessary for these people to lose their loved ones? Before the invasion, Bush said the primary reason for war was to address the direct, immediate and gathering threat Saddam Husseins regime presented. And Iraq was such a threat, Bush asserted, because it possessed biological and chemical weapons and a revived nuclear weapons program and because it was dealing with Al Qaeda. None of that has proven true. The Duelfer report concludes that Hussein had neither WMDs nor any active WMD programs (and that Husseins WMD programs were in a state of decaythat is, de-gathering). The 9/11 Commission and the CIA found no evidence of an operational relationship between Husseins government and Al Qaeda. There was no pressing threat that required a war. There was plenty of time to pursue other options. In fact, the inspections and sanctions had worked. These days, Bush hails the war in Iraq as an essential part of an overall crusade to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East. But that is not how he sold the invasion originally. The main reason for which those two menand othershave died was bunk. Bush failed the most solemn obligation of his office: to order men and women to their death for good cause and only if there is no other choice.
I confess: I find it increasingly difficult to be civil about this. I certainly can argue politely and passionately with conservatives about welfare reform, school choice, faith-based initiatives, tax cuts, antiballistic missile defense. I can see how people of good faith might disagree in good faith over these contentious issues. But I am losing my patience with anyone who refuses to acknowledge that Raheen Heighter, Irving Medina and many others died under George Bushs false pretenses. And given that the war in Iraq was indeed an elective war, I want to grab advocates of the war by the lapel and say, Unless youre willing to put your buttor that of a precious son or daughterin an unreinforced Humvee in Iraq, why should anyone die for your and Bushs assertion that the war in Iraq is essential for Americas safety?
What compounds the ill will I feel for Bush and the war-backers is the manner in which Bush discusses the war while campaigning. Rather than strive for a high-minded and somber debate about the most critical issue of the campaign, he has resorted to cheap shots and derision. He blasts Kerry for advocating pessimism and retreat and for considering terrorism a nuisance, when Kerry merely said is that it would be desirable to reach a day when terrorism is nothing more than a nuisance. (That sounds like a decent goal, particularly when Bush says, "Whether or not we can be ever fully safe isyou knowis up in the air.) Bush claims Kerry would submit U.S. national security decisions to other nations for a veto. At a campaign rally on Monday, he declared that Kerry Believes that instead of leading with confidence, America must submit to what he calls a global test. I'm not making that up That means our country must get permission from foreign capitals before we act in our own self-defense. That is not what Kerry has said. He has explicitly stated he would not allow other governments to block actions he deemed necessary. But he did say that if a U.S. president orders an pre-emptive strike, he ought to do so for a reason that is compelling enough to convince the American public and people abroad. Bush responds to that with mockery based on a falsehood.
Bush has belittled any discussion of the war that is not black and white. For example, he attacked Kerry foreign policy adviser Richard Holbrooke, a former UN ambassador, for saying "We're not in a war on terror in a literal sense" and for calling the so-called war on terrorism a "metaphor" like the war on poverty. "Confusing food programs with terrorist killings reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the war we face," Bush exclaimed, "And that is very dangerous thinking." This is not serious debate about a serious matter: the war in Iraq and the best way to counter the threat of Islamic jihadism. This is a shallow-minded Bush putting politics over all else. Accusing Holbrooke of not knowing the difference between food programs and terrorist killingsthere is a word for that: stupid.
Worse, Bush refuses to acknowledge he sold the war with false information. Even after the Duelfer report was released, Bush insisted Hussein had been a gathering threat. And if the mission in Iraq was, as Bush now describes it, to help Iraq become a free nation in the midst of the greater Middle East, why did he have to invade Iraq on March 19, 2003before the inspections process was done, before more of the United States major allies were recruited for the coalition, before the U.S. troops were fully equipped with body armor and reinforced Humvees, before plans were readied for the post-invasion period and the economic, social, legal, political and security challenges to come?
Bush has not been honest about this war. That means he has not been honest about the immense loss suffered by Cathy Heighter, by Ivan Medina and by thousands of other Americans. What an insult. And those who stand with Bush share in the deceit. They are the masters of war who force others to be their servants of sacrifice. And I appear with them in television studios so we can debate the finer points of the latest developments in Iraq and the so-called war on terrorism. I am not sure if I hate them. But I do despise what they have wrought and what they defend. And I do want to shoutI mean really shoutat them for supporting and enabling the callous miscalculations of a reckless and disingenuous president. But that would make for bad and ineffective television. So I sit politely and wait to have my say, as do Heighter and Medina, and hope that somewhere, somehow, sometime (perhaps even this coming Tuesday) what we say rather than screamas well as what Heighter and Medina feelwill matter.
I so agree with this! What an excellent piece, thanks for posting it.
We may all joke and kid around about our candidates, but I know what this writer is talking about. The majority of the Americans dying in this war are not much more than kids. The families that they leave behind are forever changed. Their parents suffer a sadness that never leaves them.
It's much too easy to talk about how neccessary this war was and I resent the callousness with which so many people do so.
And it's the reason I don't just dislike Bush, I truly believe he is a heartless, uncaring, evil man.
I think many of the soldiers that returned from Vietnam disagreed with the way the war was being fought; that's why they didn't have much good to say about it.
As for the draft, I think that also had something to do the sentiment around Vietnam. People were drafted in WWII and they pretty much welcomed going into the service because they believed in the war. Well into the Vietnam war many didn't really grok the objective. Again, because of the way the war was being fought. I would disagree with your position about the war today. People that are enlisting are doing so voluntarily, knowing full well what the possible consequences are (See: Pat Tillman). I, for one, would much rather have a military of volunteers than a military of relucant servicemen. As for paying for, well, we are all paying for it, so I don't quite understand that comment. As for enlisting, I don't know for sure, and don't know exactly to whom you are referring but as for me, I would gladly enlist were I not too old to do so. I think its a bit of an unfair characterization to say that those that support the war do so because they don't have to fight in it. But, that's just me, I could be wrong
Originally posted by peachgirl
Yes we did and it was actually quite pleasant.
As for the Kennedy comparisons....
I wonder sometimes if perhaps time and circumstances make us look at Kennedy as something more than he was.
I know one of the saddest days I've had was when John Kennedy Jr. died, because with him went the last link to his father, at least as far as a possible political future. I had always thought that someday he would get into politics and perhaps even run for President.
So, no, I don't believe John Kerry is comparable to JFK, but I don't know if it's because he's not the man JFK was or if he's not the man we want to believe JFK was.....if that makes any sense at all.
And please don't slither off anywhere. The only time I pull my fangs out on this thread is when someone comes in and wants to flood this thread with cut and pastes or just wants to be insulting so they can go back and report how mean and nasty we are.
Btw, let's clear up the slithering to the cesspool. The poster of that comment never said the Bush thread was a cesspool. She said for the poster, who was being extremely obnoxious, to go back to whatever cesspool he came from. It was the Bush thread that decided they were indeed the cesspool. Just a fyi.....
Thank you, peachgirl. I am continually of the opinon that if all of us were to come out from behind the anonimity of this board and meet at a club at Pleasure Island for drinks we would find we have much more in common that not, and that we would all be surprised at how nice, pleasant and genuinely good people we all are, and everyone would have a very good time with each other. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I'm using cut and paste, because you have to register for the Miami Herald website:
Posted on Wed, Oct. 27, 2004
FDLE ends probe of missing absentee ballots
By AMY SHERMAN and ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@herald.com
After a brief inquiry, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement has closed its investigation into why thousands of absentee ballots have not reached Broward County voters.
FDLE was asked to investigate Tuesday after being contacted by county elections officials, said Paige Patterson-Hughes, spokesperson for the agency's South Florida region.
But after preliminary discussions with Broward Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes, investigators found no evidence of criminal intent, and no reason to continue the investigation.
Gisela Salas, deputy supervisor of elections, said that elections officials started their own investigation earlier this week after hearing complaints from several voters that they did not receive their ballots.
Many of those ballots had been mailed on Oct. 7th and 8th, Salas said, and therefore should have reached voters. Brenda Snipes, the supervisor of elections, spoke with officials at the Oakland Park post office where the ballots are delivered and was told that they had been mailed, Salas said. That's when Snipes contacted FDLE.
Exactly how many absentee ballots are missing is unclear. About 58,000 were mailed on Oct. 7th and 8th and Salas said elections officials know that not all of those ballots are missing because some have been returned.
The post office's spokesperson could not immediately be reached for comment Wednesday.
As of Tuesday evening, the county had received 127,320 requests for absentee ballots and had mailed the majority of them, Salas said. So far, 50,778 absentee ballots have been returned.
Here is how absentee ballots are mailed: Each day, absentee ballot requests are processed at the voting equipment center in Fort Lauderdale. Then a courier, who is a full-time elections employee, drives the ballots to the Oakland Park Boulevard post office.
Salas recommended that voters who have not received their absentee ballots should vote at an early voting site. The missing absentee ballots could lead to even longer lines at early voting sites, where waits have been several hours. Due to the crowds, the county has added staff and equipment to some busy sites. The Southwest Regional Library in Pembroke Pines continues to be the most crowded.
So far, more than 80,000 people have participated in early voting.
DizneyKaren
Earning My Ears
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2004
- Messages
- 59
Hi all. I've recently registered after lurking for awhile. I wanted to drop in here to offer a bit of morale support. After reading so many nasty posts and threads by Bush supporters, this previously undecided voter is now definitely decided - in Kerry's favor.
I'll admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread but did notice you all seem to have my kind of humor, as well. I'll do my part to get out the illegal vote. I live way out in the country... in fact I'm often suprised we even have Internet access out here. I'm 95% sure one or more neighbors could provide some "home-grown herb" for those special brownies. 
I'll admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread but did notice you all seem to have my kind of humor, as well. I'll do my part to get out the illegal vote. I live way out in the country... in fact I'm often suprised we even have Internet access out here.
I'm 95% sure one or more neighbors could provide some "home-grown herb" for those special brownies. 
Planogirl
I feel the nerd in me stirring
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2000
- Messages
- 49,779
Alright, another brownie chef!!! We need those to keep our strength up you know. I personally only want them for the chocolate...honest!Originally posted by DizneyKaren
Hi all. I've recently registered after lurking for awhile. I wanted to drop in here to offer a bit of morale support. After reading so many nasty posts and threads by Bush supporters, this previously undecided voter is now definitely decided - in Kerry's favor.
I'll admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread but did notice you all seem to have my kind of humor, as well. I'll do my part to get out the illegal vote. I live way out in the country... in fact I'm often suprised we even have Internet access out here.
Seriously, welcome.
Therapeutic Smile
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for Steve...
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 195
Let's face it, folks... it's a good year for Massachusetts...
The Patriots won the Super Bowl.
The Red Sox won the World Series (who thought THAT would ever happen!?)
And soon, the POTUS will call MA home. Well, after that big beautiful home in that big beautiful City On The Hill, of course.
Optimism. Forward thought. Positivity. These are the markings and the makings of a Democrat.
Kerry in a walk.
The Patriots won the Super Bowl.
The Red Sox won the World Series (who thought THAT would ever happen!?)
And soon, the POTUS will call MA home. Well, after that big beautiful home in that big beautiful City On The Hill, of course.
Optimism. Forward thought. Positivity. These are the markings and the makings of a Democrat.
Kerry in a walk.
Therapeutic Smile
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for Steve...
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 195
Originally posted by dmadman43
Thank you, peachgirl. I am continually of the opinon that if all of us were to come out from behind the anonimity of this board and meet at a club at Pleasure Island for drinks we would find we have much more in common that not, and that we would all be surprised at how nice, pleasant and genuinely good people we all are, and everyone would have a very good time with each other. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
100 %, absoultely, positively, completely and with a whole heart agree. Part of being an American is not only being politically aware, but having conviction in one's opinions. Another part is being able to separate people from policy and being able to see a debate for what it is, which among other things, is not the definition of a man (or woman, of course).
dmadman, if we were to ever meet in the Adventurer's Club, I'd buy you a drink. We'd enjoy our drinks over healthy discourse, for certain.
Disney Enthusiast
<font color=purple>This I command...you are forbid
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,463
Thank you for saying so deniseh! I appreciate your kind remark!
Hi to you bubie2.5! Thanks for reaching out.
HAVE A GREAT DAY EVERYBODY!
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