? for Dark Ride Aficionados

[Gianna'sPapa]

For those who visit this forum regularly know, I am obsessed with getting some usable images from the dark rides. To that end, I have been practicing (guessing ) with my new equipment. Here is what I am using:

Pentax K5 w/ Sigma 30 f1.4.

In an attempt to shortcut the learning curve (We arrive in 12 days at POP) I have been practicing with the following settings. Am I on the right track or what settings would you suggest?

Tv mode: 1/30 sec.
ISO: 3200
Aperture: Let camera set
Spot Metering
Spot Focus
EV Comp: '0'

At those settings I am getting some fairly good images with just some minor noise reduction during PP. Since I am unable to simulate the ride movement, is the shutter speed fast enough to prevent movement blur (the shake reduction is activated)?

 

[mom2rtk]

I would add that shooting in burst mode can help your odds of getting a keeper.

I generally don't go below 1/40 on ss, but I have fairly unsteady hands.

And you might find that things vary depending on which dark ride you're talking about. Some dark rides are darker than others. Peter Pan is the holy grail. HM is probably the next darkest.

Have a great trip!

 

[ssanders79]

There is another big variable.. Ride movement. This one is hard to simulate in practice. You could try having someone drive you down the street really slowly at night while shooting out the window.

 

[Daisy14'sDH]

Lol, I just wanna sww video of your training sessions! Lol, especially if you drive down the street at night, and especially if you start screaming I got it!!!! Lol, best of luck!

 

[thomas998]

For those who visit this forum regularly know, I am obsessed with getting some usable images from the dark rides. To that end, I have been practicing (guessing ) with my new equipment. Here is what I am using:

Pentax K5 w/ Sigma 30 f1.4.

In an attempt to shortcut the learning curve (We arrive in 12 days at POP) I have been practicing with the following settings. Am I on the right track or what settings would you suggest?

Tv mode: 1/30 sec.
ISO: 3200
Aperture: Let camera set
Spot Metering
Spot Focus
EV Comp: '0'

At those settings I am getting some fairly good images with just some minor noise reduction during PP. Since I am unable to simulate the ride movement, is the shutter speed fast enough to prevent movement blur (the shake reduction is activated)?

I would skip letting the camera do anything. Go to full manual you know you are going to be at 1.4 so set it and forget it, then pick the ISO you can live with and just tweak the shutter speed.

I think your speed is a bit too slow and your ISO a bit too fast. I would rather get a slightly underexposed photo and have to try and boost it than a picture with high iso noise.

I would think 1600 would be as high as you want to go... but your 1/30 will likely result in some noticeable motion blur.

 

[boBQuincy]

My preferred method is to use Aperture Priority to set the lens to wide open, then I know the shutter speed will be the fastest I can get under those conditions. If it is not fast enough that way then there is nothing we can do about it anyway.

To keep the scene similar to what it should look like I often set exposure compensation to -1, it is supposed to be kind of dark. ISO is set to the highest available and whatever level of noise we can live with, 3200 should be ok in these conditions and maybe 6400 is clean enough.

With all the darkness around it may be best to use spot metering.

 

[Gianna'sPapa]

I would skip letting the camera do anything. Go to full manual you know you are going to be at 1.4 so set it and forget it, then pick the ISO you can live with and just tweak the shutter speed.

I think your speed is a bit too slow and your ISO a bit too fast. I would rather get a slightly underexposed photo and have to try and boost it than a picture with high iso noise.

I would think 1600 would be as high as you want to go... but your 1/30 will likely result in some noticeable motion blur.

When comparing this new camera to my K10D, The ISO of 3200 compares 200-400 on the K10 and 6400 compares to 800. The Sony sensor in the K5, Sony A580, Nikon 5100/7000 is quite remarkable. I was a little worried about the shutter speed being a little slow. Thanks for the input.

My preferred method is to use Aperture Priority to set the lens to wide open, then I know the shutter speed will be the fastest I can get under those conditions. If it is not fast enough that way then there is nothing we can do about it anyway.

To keep the scene similar to what it should look like I often set exposure compensation to -1, it is supposed to be kind of dark. ISO is set to the highest available and whatever level of noise we can live with, 3200 should be ok in these conditions and maybe 6400 is clean enough.

With all the darkness around it may be best to use spot metering.

Thanks for the input. I will get this right and get some images! (hopefully decent images)

 

[ukcatfan]

I would personally stop the lens down by 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop to get a slightly larger DOF and a little more sharpness. Then with the usable high ISO, I would go to 6400. I think 1/60 is about as slow as you can go when the vehicle is in motion.

 

[Gianna'sPapa]

I would personally stop the lens down by 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop to get a slightly larger DOF and a little more sharpness. Then with the usable high ISO, I would go to 6400. I think 1/60 is about as slow as you can go when the vehicle is in motion.

Thanks! I have been worried about the shutter speed. I'm just getting to know the K5, how is the noise on the Kx @ 6400?

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Each ride is different. There is no single group of settings that works for all. Some dark rides are darker than others. Some dark rides move faster than others.

Try to shoot things you are moving towards rather than those moving past you. The motion blur will be less noticeable.

Shoot lots and lots of bursts. Dark rides are very, very low keeper rate environments. If you shoot 100 shots and Peter Pan and walk away with a few that you like, be happy.

I don't like spot metering. I find it too much trouble to try to get the spot on something to meter on. I also leave it on and ruin shots for the next 10 minutes while I wonder why my camera is misbehaving.

I prefer manual exposure and chimping. I typically aim for about 1 stop under exposed to compensate for the meter reading so much darkness. Sometimes I go higher, sometimes lower. That's why I add some chimping to the mix.

Don't be afraid of high ISO. A noisy picture is useable. You may not be able to get a huge print out of it, but who makes huge prints of dark ride scenes? If you skimp on your ISO, you'll pay for it with a low shutter speed. No one wants to look at blurry pictures. Noise reduction works reasonably well, blur reduction doesn't (at least not yet).

Don't lower your ISO, underexpose, and expect to make it up in post. When you increase the exposure in post for an underexposed shot, you'll see more noise than you would have it you had shot at the higher ISO originally.

For Canon users, don't use the extended high ISO modes. These modes underexpose and then boost the exposure in post. There isn't really any advantage over shooting at the highest normal ISO, underexposing, and then boosting the exposure yourself in post production. If you do it yourself, you'll have less risk of blowing the highlights.

Pray for the ride to stop. If it does, brace yourself well and shoot like a maniac. Just be aware, if it does stop, you are likely to be in a spot where there is nothing interesting to shoot. That's just the way life works.

The longer your focal length, the more you are able to isolate interesting elements. On the other hand, the longer your focal length, the higher your shutter speed needs to be for a sharp capture.

Be ready to switch to manual focus. Sometimes AF will struggle in really dark settings. I'd stick with AF as long as the ride is moving, but if it stops, switching to MF may get you better results.

To me, the best dark ride shots are the ones with your people in them. Use a wide fast lens, lean back, and include your peeps. You can get away with slightly slower shutter speeds doing this. Assuming that your subject is in the same car/boat, they'll be moving with you, so you won't have as much subject motion. The background will be slightly blurred, but that's not a bad thing.

 

[photo_chick]

I stick with shutter priority on the dark rides (yeah, I use it for just about everything because it works with how my mind works). I'll adjust it a little if I need to. I just looked at my last shots from PoTC and at the darkest parts (50mm f/1.8 on a Canon 50D) I was at ISO 3200, f/1.8, and my shutter speed ranged from 1/45 to 1/90 and that got the exposure for me without having to bump it up in post on most of them. I have a few where I dropped the shutter speed slower, but there's some motion blur on those... I guess they forgot to hold the boat still for me. LOL

The good thing is that you're far enough from what you're shooting with a short enough focal length that you can shoot wide open and not have much of an issue with too shallow a depth of field.

 

[LordAthens]

Don't forget also, shooting that Sigma wide open will result in a very shallow depth of field.

While it's not the end of the world, it's something to keep in mind. Depending on what ride you're shooting, much of your frame may be on different focal planes.

 

[Gianna'sPapa]

Each ride is different. There is no single group of settings that works for all. Some dark rides are darker than others. Some dark rides move faster than others.

Try to shoot things you are moving towards rather than those moving past you. The motion blur will be less noticeable.

Shoot lots and lots of bursts. Dark rides are very, very low keeper rate environments. If you shoot 100 shots and Peter Pan and walk away with a few that you like, be happy.

I don't like spot metering. I find it too much trouble to try to get the spot on something to meter on. I also leave it on and ruin shots for the next 10 minutes while I wonder why my camera is misbehaving.

I prefer manual exposure and chimping. I typically aim for about 1 stop under exposed to compensate for the meter reading so much darkness. Sometimes I go higher, sometimes lower. That's why I add some chimping to the mix.

Don't be afraid of high ISO. A noisy picture is useable. You may not be able to get a huge print out of it, but who makes huge prints of dark ride scenes? If you skimp on your ISO, you'll pay for it with a low shutter speed. No one wants to look at blurry pictures. Noise reduction works reasonably well, blur reduction doesn't (at least not yet).

Don't lower your ISO, underexpose, and expect to make it up in post. When you increase the exposure in post for an underexposed shot, you'll see more noise than you would have it you had shot at the higher ISO originally.

For Canon users, don't use the extended high ISO modes. These modes underexpose and then boost the exposure in post. There isn't really any advantage over shooting at the highest normal ISO, underexposing, and then boosting the exposure yourself in post production. If you do it yourself, you'll have less risk of blowing the highlights.

Pray for the ride to stop. If it does, brace yourself well and shoot like a maniac. Just be aware, if it does stop, you are likely to be in a spot where there is nothing interesting to shoot. That's just the way life works.

The longer your focal length, the more you are able to isolate interesting elements. On the other hand, the longer your focal length, the higher your shutter speed needs to be for a sharp capture.

Be ready to switch to manual focus. Sometimes AF will struggle in really dark settings. I'd stick with AF as long as the ride is moving, but if it stops, switching to MF may get you better results.

To me, the best dark ride shots are the ones with your people in them. Use a wide fast lens, lean back, and include your peeps. You can get away with slightly slower shutter speeds doing this. Assuming that your subject is in the same car/boat, they'll be moving with you, so you won't have as much subject motion. The background will be slightly blurred, but that's not a bad thing.

Thanks Mark! What chapter will this be in your Disney manual?

 

[Lancer]

For Canon users, don't use the extended high ISO modes. These modes underexpose and then boost the exposure in post. There isn't really any advantage over shooting at the highest normal ISO, underexposing, and then boosting the exposure yourself in post production. If you do it yourself, you'll have less risk of blowing the highlights.

Mark,
What are you considering the extended ISO? Anything over 6400 you find with new or high end cameras? I am still using a 20D (I know, I am working on a upgrade, atleast a 60D possibly full frame) where 3200 is considered extended. I can imagine, noise at my 1600 is equivalent to noise at your 3200 or 6400.

I am after the same goal as Giana's Papa. My two fastest lenses are a EF 50mm f/1.4 and a EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS. To get any wide angle I can go with a slower EFS 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6, EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 or even a EFS 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5.

If I go with a wider/slower lens, in AP, wouldnt the relatively high min aperature negate the use of burst mode? or just go full manual? Or will I get better results with the longer, but faster lens?

Lastly, My logic at this point is not to upgrade to any faster lenses for now, but to put the money into a newer body which would essentially accomplish the same thing using my existing lenses.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

 

[NLD]

You're on the track of the method I use...

But I try to keep shutter speed at least 1/60. (50mm lens on FX.)

I do use shutter priority. To me it makes sense to set the shutter speed and let the camera choose the aperture, for a couple reasons:

(1) I might be able to rescue something that's underexposed at 1/60 and wide open, but it's unlikely I can rescue a properly exposed photo (something shot wide open with a slower shutter) that has motion blur.

(2) Some of the scenes actually change significantly in brightness. I blew out the bride on Haunted Mansion once using manual.

Do you have auto-ISO on your camera? Sometimes I use that too... sometimes not.

1600 ISO is not enough in the really dark rides. 1600 ISO on my D60 in 2009 got me a few scenes from Small World, the bride in Haunted Mansion, and that's about it. (Not sure I tried on Splash that year.)

3200 for Splash should make sure you can get all the scenes.

Peter Pan--have to go even higher if your camera can.

Never yet gotten a useable pic of the musicians in Haunted Mansion. Came close at I think 6400 ISO and 1/13 sec (have to check, might've actually been higher ISO). So even with high ISO some stuff is just super tough.

Not so sure about spot metering. Was at MK for MNSSHP a couple weeks ago and went through Pirates and Splash in spot metering mode before realizing it. (Oy!) I haven't downloaded those pics yet but in Splash I kept looking at the LCD screen and histogram and thinking "Something's not right here, these seem too dark." (Thus finally realizing my metering mode.)

Pretty sure I used matrix in Sept 2010 and they turned out well, but will have to doublecheck on that. (Can't now, away from home...)

Good luck and have fun!

 

[NLD]

Just checked some Peter Pan photos I had on Flickr, exif for all says 10,000 ISO, 1/80 ss, and f/1.4 with -1/3 EV. Matrix metering. Shutter-priority mode.

Too lazy to relink them all but here's a link to a previous post with examples... with links to Flickr for exif, etc.

Peter Pan shots

Others have done better but I was pretty happy with the results.

 

[ssanders79]

Lastly, My logic at this point is not to upgrade to any faster lenses for now, but to put the money into a newer body which would essentially accomplish the same thing using my existing lenses.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

I've subscribed to the complete opposite philosophy. I am still using my D40 and have invested in the glass. One day I will upgrade to a D7000 or whatever is the current model at this level (hopefully sooner than later).

I guess what I am saying is that I can still "upgrade" my body by getting new glass. Once I am limited by the body then it will be time to upgrade. By getting a new body I am just upgrading the image quality and better noise. By getting new glass I am open to lower light without worrying about noise, and even better I am open to many more creative compositions.

PS - If money were not an issue then my philosophy would be quite different, but that is not the case so this is my self imposed rule.

 

[Gianna'sPapa]

I've subscribed to the complete opposite philosophy. I am still using my D40 and have invested in the glass. One day I will upgrade to a D7000 or whatever is the current model at this level (hopefully sooner than later).

I guess what I am saying is that I can still "upgrade" my body by getting new glass. Once I am limited by the body then it will be time to upgrade. By getting a new body I am just upgrading the image quality and better noise. By getting new glass I am open to lower light without worrying about noise, and even better I am open to many more creative compositions.

PS - If money were not an issue then my philosophy would be quite different, but that is not the case so this is my self imposed rule.

Then you get an obsession like mine and do both!! And then I started thinking about fireworks and decided I needed a ND filter for the long exposure multiple explosion pics. It arrives Saturday! Of course I wouldn't be doing any of this if it weren't for my kids funding our anniversary trip. Kudos to them for allowing Dad to go nuts!!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Im' with Scott on this. Cameras have been getting substantial upgrades at a pretty rapid pace. Lenses have been seeing small improvements at a pretty slow pace. If you buy a really nice lens now, it will still be a really nice lens 10-20 years from now. If you buy a nice camera now, you'll see much nicer cameras in your price range in 2-4 years.

I would also be really suspect about considering higher ISO as an equivalent good with regards to a fast lens. Most of the time I'm using a fast lens, I'm using it for the control over DOF rather than the low light capabilities. A higher ISO doesn't give you that. I'm not knocking high ISO capability...it's darn good to have. I'm just saying that I'd rather have the fast lens.