Flying with children?

[CPT Tripss]

It's interesting that the TSA apologists think that the existing cadre of Airport Security Screeners who are "keeping us safe" now are incapable of performing "profiling" according to rules and procedures.

In Israel, every passenger is guilty until proven innocent.

Seems that the Airport Security Screeners in the TSA, and a lot of travelers on this board, have exactly the same mindset in that regard. The difference is that Israelis are looking for bad people . . . Airport Security Screeners are looking for bad things.

 

[eliza61]

It's interesting that the TSA apologists think that the existing cadre of Airport Security Screeners who are "keeping us safe" now are incapable of performing "profiling" according to rules and procedures.


Seems that the Airport Security Screeners in the TSA, and a lot of travelers on this board, have exactly the same mindset in that regard. The difference is that Israelis are looking for bad people . . . Airport Security Screeners are looking for bad things.

Who said anyone was keeping us safe? I've said all along that if anyone is determined to hurt anyone, any where there ain't a damn thing you can do. Period.

I happen to have 225 years of history to back up my claim that we cannot profile objectively in this country. What do you have ? yeah, I thought so.

And considering as recent as last summer when wackadoodle from PA claimed that black men had carjacked her and her daughter then she ended up in the Grand floridian while every Barnie Phiff wannabe from PA rounded up anyone and everyone who was remotely dark skinned I would say our glorious track record on race relations has not changed much.

Tell you what, I'll spot you 200 years, if you can give me 2 years when there hasn't been rampant police brutality against the minority community, I'll entertain the thought that this nation can profile accordingly.

I've said a number of times, I perfectly willing to play the odds with the security theater we have because flying is in my opinion a choice. I've also said many times IMO, if you don't like the procedure you have the option of not flying.

Maybe we look for "bad things" because like I've said we've had 200 years of putting forth what a "Bad" person looks like (hint: they ain't blue eyed with blonde hair) and we rarely get it right... oh and I'm talking about the so called trained professional like, state troopers and govenors.

 

[iheartdisney]

wow.

racism works both ways.

 

[eliza61]

wow.

racism works both ways.

Actually more like reality. Like I said, I've pretty much got a lot of historical proof to support the fact that in this country we cannot profile without race coming into it.
All the examples above happened and happened recently.

Now the Chris Rock quote, ok. I totally admit that his comedy can be offensive so I'll go back and delete.

But if you've got any reason to think we could do this effectly without racial profiling coming into it, I am more than happy to hear it.
Now, like I said before my only experience with "profiling" type screening was in Israel and no way, now how could that work here. I can't even imagine the uproar that would occur if we started taking pictures of the license plates of every car that drove up to the airport or if we stopped every car and asked for id from every one in the car.



So until we can do it effectively, I'll stick with the "everybody" has an equal chance of getting screened. Can you tell me how profiling would work where it would not become racial?

 

[N965VJ]

Transportation Chief Criticizes Airport Pat-Down of 6-Year-Old Girl

Published April 17, 2011

Asked about the incident on "Fox News Sunday," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said, "I wouldn't want my granddaughter treated like that."

 

[ccgirl]

Statistically speaking, you should be a lot more concerned about what "Uncle Bob" might be doing when you aren't around rather than what a TSA staff member is doing in full view of you and dozens of other people in a public airport.

I'm not convinced any of the security measures we've imposed as a country since 9-11 really make us truly "safer." But, they don't disturb me too much and I certainly wouldn't let it worry me about my kids or let it impact my travel plans.

and

 

[revdon64]

Do you read what you write? You start off complaining that a six year old girl or an elderly grandmother weren't the ones who crashed planes into buildings on 9/11, so we should profile, and search the type of people who did (despite numerous explanations in this thread and a similar one on the Community Board why that won't work).

Then you bring up El-Al and point out that they profile everyone. You can't have it both ways. Have you researched Israel's airports? Do you know how much less traffic each of their many fewer airports handles? Are you aware that passengers are required to arrive several hours early, and that the military personnel checking each potential passenger don't care if you miss your flight? Did you know the inspection starts as you drive into the airport? They can refuse to let you fly for any number of reasons. In Israel, every passenger is guilty until proven innocent.

Can you see that working in the United States, home of the self-entitled "I know I'm trustworthy and would never do anything like that, you simply must believe me because I'm me!" population?

Actually, profiling everyone does not need to be nearly as draconian as you make it out to be. A few simple questions can screen out most people who do not have evil intentions. "Who are you flying with? What's your destination? For what reason?" This kind of stuff isn't at all intrusive. And BTW, if they want to take pictures of my lisence plates when I enter the airport - so what?! I'm not hiding from anything. And if you think that the police aren't already doing that, you're sadly mistaken. Honestly, I live an average life and I don't have anything to hide from. So I don't have a problem talking about where I'm going, being photographed, etc. I do have a problem with the assumption that someone other than a radical muslim (there, I said it) would use a child as a mule for weapons or explosives. Families, even muslim families do not kill their own children to prove a point.

So are you against any type of screening, because screening means "the terrorists have already one!'? Or is it just this screening, because it bothers YOU? Maybe the wtmd bother someone else, does that mean we should shut them down? Or just the type of secutity checks that makes you uncomfortable?

Answered above I think.

We have a right in this country to be free from illegal search and seizure. It's the fourth amendment to the constitution. Go check it out. They need a reason to search you. Random doesn't cut it! Do you honestly think that that TSA agent suspected that that little girl was carrying a dangerous item onto the plane? Or was she going through the motions of some contrived show that has no real deterrent factor? C'mon people. This is basic American citizen 101.

 

[maxiesmom]

Honestly, I live an average life and I don't have anything to hide from. So I don't have a problem talking about where I'm going, being photographed, etc. I do have a problem with the assumption that someone other than a radical muslim (there, I said it) would use a child as a mule for weapons or explosives. Families, even muslim families do not kill their own children to prove a point.

While you may not have a problem with it, the majority of people would. Profiling, while it may work, is not an acceptable practice in the US. Just try saying that a certain group of people should be searched while going thru security, and see what kind of outcry there is.

I also don't think the TSA get to pick out who they want to search themselves. I doubt anyone looked at that child and said, I want to be on youtube today. I'll search her.

 

[sam_gordon]

Actually, profiling everyone does not need to be nearly as draconian as you make it out to be. A few simple questions can screen out most people who do not have evil intentions. "Who are you flying with? What's your destination? For what reason?" This kind of stuff isn't at all intrusive. And BTW, if they want to take pictures of my lisence plates when I enter the airport - so what?! I'm not hiding from anything. And if you think that the police aren't already doing that, you're sadly mistaken. Honestly, I live an average life and I don't have anything to hide from. So I don't have a problem talking about where I'm going, being photographed, etc. I do have a problem with the assumption that someone other than a radical muslim (there, I said it) would use a child as a mule for weapons or explosives. Families, even muslim families do not kill their own children to prove a point.

We have a right in this country to be free from illegal search and seizure. It's the fourth amendment to the constitution. Go check it out. They need a reason to search you. Random doesn't cut it! Do you honestly think that that TSA agent suspected that that little girl was carrying a dangerous item onto the plane? Or was she going through the motions of some contrived show that has no real deterrent factor? C'mon people. This is basic American citizen 101.

Can you be any more contradictory? "I have nothing to hide, they can question me, take my picture, run my licensee plate, I don't care". Followed almost immediately with "they can't search us without a reason".

Also, as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times... the 4th Amendment makes UNREASONABLE searches illegal. Whether what the TSA does is unreasonable is up for debate. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. Just because I say it isn't doesn't make it so. But, until a court rules that is IS unreasonable, it's going to happen.

As far as your comment about terrorists using kids, try reading...
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1284326.php/Kidnapped_children_used_for_terrorist_attacks_Interior_Ministry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://www.adl.org/main_Terrorism/hamas_alfateh_may.htm

Although I guess your point is ONLY "radical muslims" would use kids. Tell me, how can you tell by looking at someone that they are a "radical muslim"? Because I guess (according to you and others) those are the only ones that need screened. Do I have that right?

 

[ccgirl]

Can you be any more contradictory? "I have nothing to hide, they can question me, take my picture, run my licensee plate, I don't care". Followed almost immediately with "they can't search us without a reason".

Also, as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times... the 4th Amendment makes UNREASONABLE searches illegal. Whether what the TSA does is unreasonable is up for debate. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. Just because I say it isn't doesn't make it so. But, until a court rules that is IS unreasonable, it's going to happen.

As far as your comment about terrorists using kids, try reading...
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1284326.php/Kidnapped_children_used_for_terrorist_attacks_Interior_Ministry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://www.adl.org/main_Terrorism/hamas_alfateh_may.htm

Although I guess your point is ONLY "radical muslims" would use kids. Tell me, how can you tell by looking at someone that they are a "radical muslim"? Because I guess (according to you and others) those are the only ones that need screened. Do I have that right?

Great post.

 

[CPT Tripss]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Here it is, the 4th Amendment.

"Do you want to fly today?" To do so, you must consent to the checkpoint search . . . whatever the folks at the checkpoint say it is. TSA has not told us what limits they have placed on their employees - that's secret.

And yes, the individual Airport Security Screener can and does decide who gets pulled for more of a search.

 

[sam_gordon]

Here it is, the 4th Amendment.

What's your point? At issue is whether the TSA searches are "unreasonable". The Amendment doesn't say NO searches are allowed.

 

[DopeyDame]

But it does say that you need probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and the person to be searched and the property to be siezed must be specified. Pretty sure none of that is happening.

 

[ccgirl]

But it does say that you need probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and the person to be searched and the property to be siezed must be specified. Pretty sure none of that is happening.

Well, in the case of the 6 year old, she set off the metal detector. I'm sure that can be construed as "reasonable" as well as an "affirmation".

 

[CPT Tripss]

Well, in the case of the 6 year old, she set off the metal detector. I'm sure that can be construed as "reasonable" as well as an "affirmation".

An affirmation is a statement made by a person to a judge/magistrate in support of a request to get a warrent that is specific to a person/place.

Be aware that the TSA has not published rules that apply to people what TSA employees are supposed to do to people before allowing people to board an airplane. Secret rules and procedures are extremely problematic from a civil liberty perspective.

Now if I accept your arguement, why jump right to a search of the young person's entire body? A reasonable approach would be, use a METAL detector alarmed, send the kid trough again, if another alarm, use a "wand" and locate the offending METAL. A full body search is a real stretch, and unreasonable, in this case.