Flag of convenience?

[disneyfaninaz]

It does not seem like an afterthought to me. It is still flown higher than the other flag.

I think it is the perspective of the picture that makes it an optical illusion. I think they were flying at the same level.

 

[jenn&nelsonrego]

It gets even better - while DCL gives the American flag "convenience" postage stamp treatment, they can't make the Bahamian flag big enough!

The ship IS registered in the Bahamas... makes sense to me... When I travel to another state, I do not remove my MA license plates to put the plates of the state I am traveling to... nor do I display any type of anything as a "tribute" to the state I am traveling too.....

 

[Mozart]

The ship IS registered in the Bahamas... makes sense to me... When I travel to another state, I do not remove my MA license plates to put the plates of the state I am traveling to... nor do I display any type of anything as a "tribute" to the state I am traveling too.....

Do Disney stickers count as tributes to the state of Florida?

 

[jenn&nelsonrego]

Do Disney stickers count as tributes to the state of Florida?

Oops! I guess I do do tributes!!!! never mind....

 

[beachblanket]

The ship IS registered in the Bahamas... makes sense to me... When I travel to another state, I do not remove my MA license plates to put the plates of the state I am traveling to... nor do I display any type of anything as a "tribute" to the state I am traveling too.....

That is a flawed, erroneous analogy - when you are driving domestically, your legally mandated displayed auto registration info is not subject to the same regulations as those in international maritime law. The latter DO mandate what flags are flown and how they are displayed based on the location of the vessel.

And one other observation about the photo below. DCL has removed the Bahamas flag (which would normally be displayed below the American one) while in Port Canaveral.

Why?

Because they want to obscure/de-emphasize the Bahamian registration (ergo, don't want to reinforce to DCL guests that the ship isn't American?)

Just a thought....

 

[Remember_the_magic]

The ships registry is the Bahamas, Correct? I’m not saying that DCL shouldn’t respect American legion laws but are they required to, if they aren’t truly an American cruise vessel? I believe DCL wants to use the most colorful flag that denotes that it is a Disney Cruise Ship. This would be the Mickey Flat. Although from what I’ve read they aren’t allowed to fly any flag (except the flag of nationality to which the ship is registered). So when and how do the flags get raised? Is it the captain’s job to do this or does a DCL crew member do it? Just wondering

 

[beachblanket]

A very good overview of what "flag of convenience" really is:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/martin_paul/flagsofconvenience.html

They key obesrvations it makes:

• Foreign registration of ships lets owners pay one lower registration fees and taxes on profits.
• Foreign registration allows owners to operate under less stringent environmental laws and regulations.
• Foreign registration allows ship owners to employ lower labor standards. Ergo, hiring the cheapest labour they can find, which is why the Philippines, India, Indonesia, and Eastern Europe are the primary sources of cruise line staff. It also means there is little of no government monitoring of working conditions aboard ships.
• Foreign registration allows ship owners to operate in secrecy. As example, want to read an assessment by an objective, neutral outside party of working conditions aboard DCL? You'll never find it because it doesn't exist, due to the foreign flag registration.

Again, to be fair, this sort of use of flags of convenience isn't just a DCL thing. Almost all cruises lines do the same thing.

 

[stephent2008]

The ships registry is the Bahamas, Correct? I’m not saying that DCL shouldn’t respect American legion laws but are they required to, if they aren’t truly an American cruise vessel? I believe DCL wants to use the most colorful flag that denotes that it is a Disney Cruise Ship. This would be the Mickey Flat. Although from what I’ve read they aren’t allowed to fly any flag (except the flag of nationality to which the ship is registered). So when and how do the flags get raised? Is it the captain’s job to do this or does a DCL crew member do it? Just wondering

Other than the Bahamian flag, all flags are raised/ lowered as the ship enters/ leaves port.

In terms on the American flag as the ship is not american, they can not be prosocuted for anything that occurs with the flac outsid american soil.

OT slightly... I always find it strange that there are so many regulations regarding the use of the american flag (considering the country is a democracy and free speach and all). Here in the UK, we have official guidence on the use of our flags, however you are pretty much allowed to do what you please with them as it is an expression of freedom/ your right to self expression. Don't get me wrong, Im not saying either is right or wrong, just interesting...

 

[Remember_the_magic]

Thanks eveyone. Is there anything else special concerning the Disney Cruie Boat that i don't know. I enjoy knowing little facts that somepeople don't. if ya know what i mean. Thanks again eveyone...

Remember the Magic...

 

[magic1bubbles]

wow! thanks for the maritime education! all this for my first cruise! my dh is gonna' be impressed with my seafaring knowledge when we set sail in january!

 

[Capt_BJ]

B4 I spend about an hour addressing questions here, does anyone really WANT those answers?

This topic is about an inch thick publication on the bridge of US government vessels (display of flags and other matters of protocol) while the issue of what laws apply to a ship is, well, the law .... another sticky whicket. If anyone cares for real....say so and I'll take a few whacks at the tree trunk.

Or suffice with what I said b4...Disney is doing it right in accordance with maritime tradition and not breaking any laws (obviously).

 

[jenn&nelsonrego]

Or suffice with what I said b4...Disney is doing it right in accordance with maritime tradition and not breaking any laws (obviously).

Thanks for the offer Capt!

But I am perfectly happy with the above (of course, I am not the OP and other may have conflicting opinions)...

I have never once doubted that what Disney is doing is wrong or illegal. They have too big of a reputation to uphold.

Don't waste your time on this (for me anyway), there are too many other things to enjoy in life!

 

[Capt_BJ]

Disclaimer: The perspective here is a former Captain of a Coast Guard Cutter aka a US ship that visited ports outside of the US. I’m NOT a lawyer.


1. A ship is an entity like a corporation. When a ship flies the flag – is registered in the country – of country X, the ship becomes like a piece of that country that motors about. When on the high seas that ship IS country X. DCL ships fly the Bahamian Flag….while on board U R in the Bahamas legally. Or at least until you enter the waters of country Y {the 12 mile limit} … now we have overlapping jurisdictions.
2. So how do US laws apply? On one level they don’t..period. When my ship was in the Bahamas, on the ship we did not worry about Bahamas law as far as individuals and the like. But if you R a commercial vessel and want to load cargo or passengers… Well the US has laws that say if a ship registered other than US wants to load passengers in a US port they must first pass certain tests. This includes inspections by the Coast Guard for safety,& others 4 food safety inspections…. and of course immigration and Customs rules also apply. Or in legal-eze, the US requires concurrent jurisdiction in many areas b4 the ship will be allowed to load pass’ in a US port. The US can do this as long as the ship is in US waters and loading at US ports. If a cruise ship fails to pass say a US Coast Guard safety inspection, then they will be denied permission to leave port with pass’….. A non compliant ship can sail to and fro …. But the law CAN deny loading pass’
3. OK, back to that flag thing. Do US laws about flying the US flag apply? No, the ship is not US territory or property. It is a visiting nation. The laws pertaining to display of THEIR flag apply first. They MAY fly the US flag as a courtesy to US. When in Mexico I did not fly the MX flag as the highest on the mast as required by MX law….I followed US law as a visitor to MX and was careful to follow nautical tradition in the display of my courtesy flag.
4. Can a ship fly any flag it feels like? NO. A ship must belong to some country….it must be registered. A ship with no flag is classified by international law of the sea (if there is such a thing – a different discussion) as stateless/a pirate and arrest-able by any legitimate Naval force (another discussion)….bunch of quasi legal stuff there. In my Coast Guard law enforcement career: if a ship claims one flag at 9 AM and another at 10 AM …. It is stateless. If a ship has one flag state painted on the stern and flies a different flag…it is stateless. Stateless equals potential pirate and away we’d go. BUT….a ship CAN fly multiple flags because there are traditional ways to fly both the state flag, and a courtesy flag. Many ships only fly courtesy flags while in port….but they are ALLOWED at sea. Flying flags at sea ends up being expensive as the wind will beat them to threads FAST.
5. Crime at sea….want to get back to that jurisdiction thing? I enter dangerous waters here. This is a very sticky wicket when it comes to crime at sea. A crime happens on a DCL ship on the high seas.. The victim wants justice and wants the Coast Guard the FBI the State Police the CIA and the President themselves to intervene….. There’s one little problem. All those entities have no jurisdiction. The ship is “the Bahamas” (just an example). The crime is under their law….not the US. As a Coast Guard Officer I could NOT jump on a cruise ship and investigate a reported crime any more than a Bobby from London could. Let’s build a really bad example: The crime happened between 9 and 10 PM. During that time the ship left US waters and entered the high seas. The accused is from country A the ship left port of country B the victim is from country C the ship is registered in country D …. If u do not see a problem show this to a lawyer.

 

[disneyfaninaz]

Capt. BJ,

Thank you so much for printing this perspective.

I am proud to be an American, as are other Americans, but I understand that we are not the only country in the world and therefore our flag should not always be the biggest or flown the highest, especially on an international vessel.

I think you explained the rules of flying flags on a cruise ship very well. I can say I actually learned something today. Thanks!

 

[jenn&nelsonrego]

Capt. BJ,

Thank you so much for printing this perspective.

I am proud to be an American, as are other Americans, but I understand that we are not the only country in the world and therefore our flag should not always be the biggest or flown the highest, especially on an international vessel.

I think you explained the rules of flying flags on a cruise ship very well. I can say I actually learned something today. Thanks!

I agree 100%.

Thank you Captain!

 

[Remember_the_magic]

Thank you Capt. BJ,
Maritime law is a difficult subject and I’m glad we have someone who knows what they're talking about.
Next question… What are some of the caption’s responsibilities on the Disney Magic or Wonder?

THANKS IN ADVANCE

 

[Capt_BJ]

Thank you Capt. BJ,
Maritime law is a difficult subject and I’m glad we have someone who knows what they're talking about.
Next question… What are some of the caption’s responsibilities on the Disney Magic or Wonder?

THANKS IN ADVANCE

I have never been employed as the Master of a cruise ship..or any other commercial vessel. But I'll offer some opinions from my discussions and experience.

A cruise ship today is really two enterprises. One one hand it is a vessel and the maritime laws apply. On the second hand it is a major resort hotel that enjoys the curious position of not QUITE falling under the laws of any country...back to that "flag state" issue again.

Today, when I sail on a cruise ship I'm entertained as the ship introduces on special nites as many as 8 "Captains" .... the Hotel Captain, bar captain, engineer captain, entertainment captain ..... on and on.

Legally....there is ONE "captain" ... legally the MASTER..the person we've colloquially called "captain" but legally is "the Master". The Master is the KING. When I as a Coast Guard Officer boarded a vessel...as small as 9 feet or as long as 1200...The person I talked to and held responsible was the MASTER.

The hotel captain was called the 'staff captain' a few years ago .... but when the ".." hits the fan...the MASTER is responsible for the safe operation of the ship......

If it happens on board...the MASTER is responsible. A recent NTSB report of an accident at sea on a cruise ship...the Master was not on the bridge, but it was his responsibility....poor seamanship by the person on watch = The "Master's fault"

This is the law of the sea .....

It is perhaps the understanding of this concept that has afforded me the opportunity to sit in a lounge with the Master of Wonder/Magic and enjoyed the privilege of the bridge......

Short answer? The Master is responponsibe for EVERYTHING on their ship....as I was.

 

[Remember_the_magic]

I feel bad asking all the questions but i'm intrested. Can you explane a normal day of a MASTER CAPTIN on the Disney Cruise Line?
Like what does he do all day... I know the captin is only on the bridge 1/10 of the whole cruise. (mainly while docking or undocking) But where is he when hes not doing that?

THANKS CAPT BJ

 

[Mickeyhugger]

From the American Legion website section on American Flag Display Policy:

"When flown with flags of states, communities, societies or organizations, the flag of the United States is always placed in the position of honor:

• No other flag ever should be placed above it.
• The other flags may be smaller but none may be larger.
• The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.

I work for a Fortune 100 company and outside our headquarters we fly both an American flag and a corporate logo flag on the same pole. The American flag is not just at the top but is also larger than the corporate flag, not smaller. Ergo, we are in compliance with display code.

Trust me, if we did what DCL did in that picture, in thirty seconds the local American Legion would be on the phone with the Chairman's office.

In fact, perhaps that DCL photo should be forwarded to the national American Legion office in Washington...

This is irrelevant, the ship is of Bahamian registry.

 

[beachblanket]

OK, back to that flag thing. Do US laws about flying the US flag apply? No, the ship is not US territory or property. It is a visiting nation. The laws pertaining to display of THEIR flag apply first. They MAY fly the US flag as a courtesy to US.

BJ, thank you for clarifying things relative the rules of flag display under maritime law and underling the fact the flag of convenience registration of the Disney ships means they are not American property.

My response is twofold:

First, I'm more than willing to bet that the overhwleming majority of DCL passengers obviously don't appreciate the latter fact.

In turn, I suspect most (unconciously) equate the flying of the American flag (which yes we all here now know is done as a "courtesy") while in Port Canaveral as exactly similar to it being displayed on the pole in the middle of the Main Street U.S.A hub at WDW or DL - e.g., here's a good 'ole AMERICAN company respecting our heritage by identifying this property (ergo, ship) as AMERICAN.

Which is erroneous. Does that mean DCL should broadcast to guests that their ships aren't American? Given most other cruise lines do exactly the same thing, no, DCL shouldn't be held to a higher standard. But at least people here now know what is really going on - which means that info will inevitably get shared beyond this discussion.

To quote Martha, "that's a good thing."

Second, as for the literal compliance with the courtesy flag size guidelines while in Port Canaveral, I suspect the "conflict" they raise with domestic U.S. flag display etiquette doesn't go unoticed by those who are knowledgable and sensitive to it, e.g active or retired military, scout troop leaders etc. Whether any have tried or will try to make an issue of it with DCL remains to be seen.