February direct sales but also debate about trusts

[Sandisw]

Are you saying that perhaps Poly2 gets put in a Palmetto trust as a way to force people to buy cabin points? I'm not sure I'm following you.

Potentially, yes. I’m just not convinced based on some comments I am getting. Just yesterday, one of the kiosks people made sure to remind me that the everything the know about the tower, which isn’t much, is subject to change. Could just be a CYA, but they were not wish washy with BPK.

As I said, I am confident a trust and RTU product is the future. What the next property will be? That I don’t know.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

As I said, I am confident a trust and RTU product is the future. What the next property will be? That I don’t know.

Let's say hypothetically that Poly tower is part of PVB as the association but is put into a trust with CFW. I believe somewhere you've said this was a possibility based on the POS? If not then I misunderstood. But assuming that particular variation occurs...whose dues does the tower blend with? PVB or CFW?

 

[ocdb8r1]

Let's say hypothetically that Poly tower is part of PVB as the association but is put into a trust with CFW. I believe somewhere you've said this was a possibility based on the POS? If not then I misunderstood. But assuming that particular variation occurs...whose dues does the tower blend with? PVB or CFW?

This is an interesting question and the devil will be in the details. A few basic things to consider:

1) Poly Tower's costs to operate will be partially influenced by the overall costs of the Polynesian Resort (of which, certain services should be shared between Poly Tower, PVB and Poly Hotel); this fact will remain regardless of whether Poly Tower is put into a trust with CFW, into it's own standalone association or into the existing PVB association (noting that in the case of being put into the existing PVB association, it isn't really distinct from PVB and then the cost sharing is just between PVB and Poly Hotel);

2) I have not seen anyone post copies of the actual purchase contracts/CCRs for CFW. However, from what has thus been described it sounds like when you purchase CFW you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use whatever property is in the trust....and as such, I would expect the annual dues to (be split equally to) cover all properties in the trust (meaning if they were to dump Poly Tower or some future development into the Trust, you could see annual dues go down from the 12.xx they are now, if such development's overall annual costs were significantly lower). For example, let's say there are 100k CFW associated points in the trust with an actual annual cost of 12.50 per point to maintain. Then you add 100k PolyTower associated points (noting that the trust docs apparently require DVC to deposit full "units" and not some fraction thereof) with an actual annual cost of $9.50per point to maintain. Theoretically the per trust point cost/annual dues would be a blend of the two (so in this case $11.00 per point);

3) It could be that regardless of the trust structure (and the ability to add another property to the trust) when you purchase, you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use a specific property in the trust (and not any property in the trust), in which case it could also be that your annual dues are tied only to the costs for the specific home resort you have priority on. In this case, adding another property to the trust wouldn't impact the annual dues of "CFW points".

@Sandisw - curious if you've read or reviewed enough to know which of 2 or 3 is structurally permitted by the trust docs?

 

[maui22]

This is an interesting question and the devil will be in the details. A few basic things to consider:

1) Poly Tower's costs to operate will be partially influenced by the overall costs of the Polynesian Resort (of which, certain services should be shared between Poly Tower, PVB and Poly Hotel); this fact will remain regardless of whether Poly Tower is put into a trust with CFW, into it's own standalone association or into the existing PVB association (noting that in the case of being put into the existing PVB association, it isn't really distinct from PVB and then the cost sharing is just between PVB and Poly Hotel);

2) I have not seen anyone post copies of the actual purchase contracts/CCRs for CFW. However, from what has thus been described it sounds like when you purchase CFW you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use whatever property is in the trust....and as such, I would expect the annual dues to (be split equally to) cover all properties in the trust (meaning if they were to dump Poly Tower or some future development into the Trust, you could see annual dues go down from the 12.xx they are now, if such development's overall annual costs were significantly lower). For example, let's say there are 100k CFW associated points in the trust with an actual annual cost of 12.50 per point to maintain. Then you add 100k PolyTower associated points (noting that the trust docs apparently require DVC to deposit full "units" and not some fraction thereof) with an actual annual cost of $9.50per point to maintain. Theoretically the per trust point cost/annual dues would be a blend of the two (so in this case $11.00 per point);

3) It could be that regardless of the trust structure (and the ability to add another property to the trust) when you purchase, you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use a specific property in the trust (and not any property in the trust), in which case it could also be that your annual dues are tied only to the costs for the specific home resort you have priority on. In this case, adding another property to the trust wouldn't impact the annual dues of "CFW points".

@Sandisw - curious if you've read or reviewed enough to know which of 2 or 3 is structurally permitted by the trust docs?

If tower is part of the trust and not part of PVB, might there be an option 4?

Could the trust be the start of a higher dues? Pay dues for your trust resort + pay dues for access to the trust?

My understanding is when resells CFW, they will be restricted to only CFW. I believe it would be illegal for them to be paying dues for CFW + Poly tower trust. They can only be paying fees for CFW.

Similarly, if Poly tower is added to the trust and someone resells they will likely be restricted to the Poly tower. Meaning the Poly tower resale buyer wouldn't have access to CFW, so they cannot be paying dues for a blend with other trust properties (CFW).

 

[ocdb8r1]

I just spent some time reading the Public Offering Statement for CFW, which includes the Trust documents. Effectively, the answer is my #3 above. The Trust has been structured such that not only may additional properties be contributed to the Trust, it also anticipates separate "Trust Use Plans" for each property contributed. It is clear from the docs that at this stage the sole Trust Use Plan is the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan and that a purchase of CFW points is a purchase of Trust points specifically subjected to the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan (which gives you home priority access solely at this property in the Trust). Finally, it is also clears in the explanation of dues that they will be the respective ownership percentage of total points in the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan (not the total points in the Trust). As such, you're always tied solely to CFW dues....

None of this precludes your proposed Option 4 above....but I'd say that's something that could be offered today outside of the Trust.

 

[Sandisw]

Absolutely. I was sort of replying to the idea that there's a resort bundle coming that would increase sales. If new member sales numbers don't pick up substantially from existing member sales numbers I'm not sure just the mention of a "Reflections" will boost it much more considering how long it takes to actually develop a new building from the ground up...as we've seen with Poly tower. But yes you're correct that they'll just keep renting them out as if DVC never even happened.

Hypothetically, they could decide to do a Poly tower add, give those in the Poly tower plan and the cabins plan better advantages over non trust properties.

Let's say hypothetically that Poly tower is part of PVB as the association but is put into a trust with CFW. I believe somewhere you've said this was a possibility based on the POS? If not then I misunderstood. But assuming that particular variation occurs...whose dues does the tower blend with? PVB or CFW?

Dues are based on the operation of the resort and owners at that resort pay for it.

The POS for Poly does allow for a different vacation plan so they could technically add the tower to PVB with its own rules.

If it goest into the same trust association with CFW, then I think that cuts PVB out. The association is who oversees the property so I am not sure the same property can exist under two associations.

So, my prediction is we will see Poly tower either part of the trust to be packaged in some way with CFW.

Or, they will add to PVB but find a way to sell it as a different vacation plan so they can add restrictions and sell RTU vs leasehold.

Of course, I could be totally wrong and it not only gets added but sold like all previous resorts.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

This is an interesting question and the devil will be in the details. A few basic things to consider:

1) Poly Tower's costs to operate will be partially influenced by the overall costs of the Polynesian Resort (of which, certain services should be shared between Poly Tower, PVB and Poly Hotel); this fact will remain regardless of whether Poly Tower is put into a trust with CFW, into it's own standalone association or into the existing PVB association (noting that in the case of being put into the existing PVB association, it isn't really distinct from PVB and then the cost sharing is just between PVB and Poly Hotel);

2) I have not seen anyone post copies of the actual purchase contracts/CCRs for CFW. However, from what has thus been described it sounds like when you purchase CFW you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use whatever property is in the trust....and as such, I would expect the annual dues to (be split equally to) cover all properties in the trust (meaning if they were to dump Poly Tower or some future development into the Trust, you could see annual dues go down from the 12.xx they are now, if such development's overall annual costs were significantly lower). For example, let's say there are 100k CFW associated points in the trust with an actual annual cost of 12.50 per point to maintain. Then you add 100k PolyTower associated points (noting that the trust docs apparently require DVC to deposit full "units" and not some fraction thereof) with an actual annual cost of $9.50per point to maintain. Theoretically the per trust point cost/annual dues would be a blend of the two (so in this case $11.00 per point);

3) It could be that regardless of the trust structure (and the ability to add another property to the trust) when you purchase, you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use a specific property in the trust (and not any property in the trust), in which case it could also be that your annual dues are tied only to the costs for the specific home resort you have priority on. In this case, adding another property to the trust wouldn't impact the annual dues of "CFW points".

@Sandisw - curious if you've read or reviewed enough to know which of 2 or 3 is structurally permitted by the trust docs?

I just spent some time reading the Public Offering Statement for CFW, which includes the Trust documents. Effectively, the answer is my #3 above. The Trust has been structured such that not only may additional properties be contributed to the Trust, it also anticipates separate "Trust Use Plans" for each property contributed. It is clear from the docs that at this stage the sole Trust Use Plan is the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan and that a purchase of CFW points is a purchase of Trust points specifically subjected to the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan (which gives you home priority access solely at this property in the Trust). Finally, it is also clears in the explanation of dues that they will be the respective ownership percentage of total points in the Cabins at Fort Wilderness Resort Use Plan (not the total points in the Trust). As such, you're always tied solely to CFW dues....

None of this precludes your proposed Option 4 above....but I'd say that's something that could be offered today outside of the Trust.

Before I read your second comment I immediately gravitated towards option 3. But again who knows how any of this will play out.

 

[Cfabar1]

I may be in the minority, but I would view having the cabins bundled with the Poly tower as a major downgrade - having to compete with cabin points at 11 months for a monorail resort and having to fund the cabin dues…

Now, a use plan that allowed say 11 month booking at Poly with 10 months at the cabins, and 7 months everywhere else, I might be convinced to try that, but I would argue it still is worse than 4 months of access to just my home resort - especially given the disparity in amenities between the cabins and the Polynesian….

Over time as more properties are added, it might become compelling… In the meantime, though, having those two resorts would definitely impact the sales for Poly in a negative way in my view.

 

[Sandisw]

This is an interesting question and the devil will be in the details. A few basic things to consider:

1) Poly Tower's costs to operate will be partially influenced by the overall costs of the Polynesian Resort (of which, certain services should be shared between Poly Tower, PVB and Poly Hotel); this fact will remain regardless of whether Poly Tower is put into a trust with CFW, into it's own standalone association or into the existing PVB association (noting that in the case of being put into the existing PVB association, it isn't really distinct from PVB and then the cost sharing is just between PVB and Poly Hotel);

2) I have not seen anyone post copies of the actual purchase contracts/CCRs for CFW. However, from what has thus been described it sounds like when you purchase CFW you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use whatever property is in the trust....and as such, I would expect the annual dues to (be split equally to) cover all properties in the trust (meaning if they were to dump Poly Tower or some future development into the Trust, you could see annual dues go down from the 12.xx they are now, if such development's overall annual costs were significantly lower). For example, let's say there are 100k CFW associated points in the trust with an actual annual cost of 12.50 per point to maintain. Then you add 100k PolyTower associated points (noting that the trust docs apparently require DVC to deposit full "units" and not some fraction thereof) with an actual annual cost of $9.50per point to maintain. Theoretically the per trust point cost/annual dues would be a blend of the two (so in this case $11.00 per point);

3) It could be that regardless of the trust structure (and the ability to add another property to the trust) when you purchase, you are purchasing points with a (priority/home resort) right to use a specific property in the trust (and not any property in the trust), in which case it could also be that your annual dues are tied only to the costs for the specific home resort you have priority on. In this case, adding another property to the trust wouldn't impact the annual dues of "CFW points".

@Sandisw - curious if you've read or reviewed enough to know which of 2 or 3 is structurally permitted by the trust docs?

The way the documents were set up and the copy of the actual CFW POS indicate that you purchase into a trust use vacation plan.

You will beresonbile for dues for any property activated under that plan. They can create multiple vacation plans under that association.

So, you buy under the Cabins Resoet Use plan, which is the only one currently, you are getting home resort advantage, if at least one month to the cabins under that plan and course , dues are associated with that.

However, the documents all then to add more than one component site under the same vacation plan. So, they can add Poly tower units to the savings plan and owners who buy under that plan would then get access to both, based on rules of the DVc membership agreement for that plan. The dues would be based on operations of whatever resort property is activated under that same plan.

But, they can also add component sites under its own plan, with its own structure and dues. Dues would be based the same, based on what it activated.

But, there is nothing preventing DVD setting up multiple trust plans that also include the benefit of early access to other property under that same association.

Meaning, they could decide that people buy a trust plan for one, but hey to access the others before others can at 7 months

In terms of dues, if the tower is added to PVB and sold as the old way, then the expenses to operate everything will be split between PVB, which now includes the tower, and the hotel.

It’s only if the tower is taken out of PVB will it be considered a third entity for dues purposes.

 

[maui22]

Now, a use plan that allowed say 11 month booking at Poly with 10 months at the cabins, and 7 months everywhere else, I might be convinced to try that, but I would argue it still is worse than 4 months of access to just my home resort - especially given the disparity in amenities between the cabins and the Polynesian….

The different booking windows works for those who are major planners. Guessing that covers most of us (myself included) on the DVC forums.

Unfortunately, there are many families who have a hard enough time with children's schedules and booking windows.
It is not uncommon for resorts to have availability until 7-8 month window because families need the time. Does Disney want to make it more difficult for families to buy into DVC?

 

[Frugal Fairy Tales]

I may be in the minority, but I would view having the cabins bundled with the Poly tower as a major downgrade - having to compete with cabin points at 11 months for a monorail resort and having to fund the cabin dues…

Now, a use plan that allowed say 11 month booking at Poly with 10 months at the cabins, and 7 months everywhere else, I might be convinced to try that, but I would argue it still is worse than 4 months of access to just my home resort - especially given the disparity in amenities between the cabins and the Polynesian….

Over time as more properties are added, it might become compelling… In the meantime, though, having those two resorts would definitely impact the sales for Poly in a negative way in my view.

I would consider any co-mingling of Poly and CFW a downgrade for Poly owners and for CFW owners. I like both, but they are not apples to apples. CFW points should not have access to Poly until 7 months and vice versa. Disney, don’t mess with home resort advantage.

 

[Sandisw]

I would consider any co-mingling of Poly and CFW a downgrade for Poly owners and for CFW owners. I like both, but they are not apples to apples. CFW points should not have access to Poly until 7 months and vice versa. Disney, don’t mess with home resort advantage.

Except if they attach it to the trust, the current PVB owners would not have the advantage as it would not be their home resort any longer.

However, where you see it as a downgrade, it intrigues me to have access to both sooner than 7 months.

Again, we have no idea what will happen but people do need to remember that all owners, no matter the resort are only guaranteed one month home resort. DVC can change that window any time they want from the 4 months we currently enjoy

 

[AstroBlasters]

Everything devolves into Poly2 and a Trust…. I look forward to the details coming out soon so we can stop spinning our wheels.

 

[NorCalFanatic]

Everything devolves into Poly2 and a Trust…. I look forward to the details coming out soon so we can stop spinning our wheels.

Seriously…..for those who took a wrong turn at Albuquerque let me point you back in the right direction

https://www.disboards.com/threads/lets-speculate-about-polynesian-some-more.3931241/

 

[Frugal Fairy Tales]

Except if they attach it to the trust, the current PVB owners would not have the advantage as it would not be their home resort any longer.

However, where you see it as a downgrade, it intrigues me to have access to both sooner than 7 months.

Again, we have no idea what will happen but people do need to remember that all owners, no matter the resort are only guaranteed one month home resort. DVC can change that window any time they want from the 4 months we currently enjoy

My opinion applies to home resort advantage at all resorts including the Poly Tower home resort advantage whatever that ends up being.

 

[Shoktherapy]

The only appeal the cabins have for me is that we can bring our dogs. It is ashamed that these are the only option we have as DVC members for pet friendly stays unless we want to rent our points and do a cash stay at one of the dog friendly resorts such as YC or PORS. Aside from that I have no desire to role play upscale trailer living in the woods.

 

[Sandisw]

My opinion applies to home resort advantage at all resorts including the Poly Tower home resort advantage whatever that ends up being.

While I too enjoy the 4 month advantage, I simply meant that a situation where you have an advantage at more than one, even if its a tiered system could be a benefit.

So, if they found a way to combine something like Poly tower and CFW together in some way, even if you choose one plan for your one month advantage, I might find that a product I’d buy since I can see both being places I might want to own.

 

[Frugal Fairy Tales]

While I too enjoy the 4 month advantage, I simply meant that a situation where you have an advantage at more than one, even if its a tiered system could be a benefit.

So, if they found a way to combine something like Poly tower and CFW together in some way, even if you choose one plan for your one month advantage, I might find that a product I’d buy since I can see both being places I might want to own.

Hoping nothing like that happens. To each their own.

 

[ziravan]

If they decide to put Poly2 into the trust, it won’t be the whole tower. They could put half into the trust and half into PVB and those points would be segregated from each other.

The Trust could book Poly2 for their rooms and points at 11 mos but not for the rooms that belong to PVB - and vice versa.

This is essentially how Wyndham does it. Access and Club points exist at each resort (not necessarily 50/50 spit) but those points are segregated from each other.

So. The possibility would then exist for Poly2 Tower rooms are avail at 10 mos for the Trust but not PVB or vice veras (because each are operating from a different pool of points).

If Poly2 is part of the trust, this is how it will be done. You’ll have a choice to buy into PVB or the Trust.

 

[ziravan]

If they decide to put Poly2 into the trust, it won’t be the whole tower. They could put half into the trust and half into PVB and those points would be segregated from each other.

The Trust could book Poly2 for their rooms and points at 11 mos but not for the rooms that belong to PVB - and vice versa.

This is essentially how Wyndham does it. Access and Club points exist at each resort (not necessarily 50/50 spit) but those points are segregated from each other.

So. The possibility would then exist for Poly2 Tower rooms are avail at 10 mos for the Trust but not PVB or vice veras (because each are operating from a different pool of points).

If Poly2 is part of the trust, this is how it will be done. You’ll have a choice to buy into PVB or the Trust.

What would otherwise concern me with that is - generally speaking - giving more options like this creates buyer freeze - buyers can’t make up their minds so don’t buy at all.

But this is easy enough for DVC to get around. They would push the benefits of the Trust and all but ignore just buying into PVB unless asked. This is essentially how they treat fixed weeks and DVC would have a great incentive to push “DVC 2.0”.