Fast Pass phasing out?!

[DC7800]

In your example, you are assuming that the 1,000 people that obtain a fast pass would not ride the attraction at all if there were no fast passes available. I think that these people would actually get in the stand-by line if no fast passes were available

It really doesn't matter either way. With Fast Pass, the standby line has to move slower than it would otherwise regardless of how many people are actually in that standby line. You can have a standby line of 50 people or 5,000 - makes no difference - both (example) standby lines will still move slower than if FastPass did not exist. Continuing the same example, you have an attraction which loads 2,000 people per hour (pph), with 3,000 persons in the standby line and 500 others returning each hour with FastPass. Hence, every hour the attraction is open (except the first hour after opening*) 500 guests will be loaded from the FP line and 1,500 from the standby line - the standby line is moving at a rate of 1,500 pph (the FP line continuously empties). So, the 3,000th person in line when you start timing should reach the ride vehicles in about two hours (500 more FP holders will return that second hour), at which point 4,000 guests will have experienced the attraction (3,000 standby, 1,000 Fast Pass).

But suppose Fast Pass didn't exist, and you have everyone in the same line. Assuming the exact same number of people ride the attraction with or without Fast Pass (and we really can't just make that assumption, except for the sake of simplicity), you now have 4,000 people in the standby line, but the line will now move at a rate of 2,000 pph (instead of 1,500 pph with Fast Pass). In two hours time, 4,000 people from the standby line can cycle through the queue as opposed to only 3,000 from standby when Fast Pass is in use.

As Matt noted, in an ideal situation with FastPass the standby line may be shorter, but since it will move slower, the actual wait time could be identical. As a practical matter, though, it may not work quite so simply. Without Fast Pass, the longer standby lines discourage some people from getting in line for the attraction. With Fast Pass, the standby lines are shorter, which may tend to encourage more people to get in line (so you end up with a greater total number of people - FP + Standby - in line for a given attraction). Obviously, with a longer line the wait is going to be greater, but we still have Fast Pass going too, so the line is not only longer it is also moving slower than without Fast Pass.

Also, and as YoHo stated, we are greatly simplifying a complex set of variables. Indeed, all of our examples are probably oversimplified to a fault, with highly questionable assumptions and holes in our logic big enough to drive a battleship through. Still, the basic point seems valid, that you cannot pause loading one group of people (standby queue), to give priority to another group (FP), without delaying those who have to stop and wait (standby line, while the FP returnees board).

 

[rutgers1]

DC....In regards to your last paragraph, my oversimplified response is "Why do we care about the people waiting in the standby line?" As long as Disney isn't discriminating regarding who can get a Fast Pass, then everyone has the opportunity to get one, wait elsewhere, and get on the ride when their window opens. If someone chooses to wait on the standby line, they know what they are in for.

I have no problem with using my Fast Passes to ride the rides that I want to go on (with minimal wait) while using the rest of the time to either go on rides with shorter waits, shop, or eat. The only time it doesn't work for people, in my estimation, is when they want to go on a ride NOW and they don't want to wait until the next Fast Pass return time (or when the Fast Passes are already given out for that particular day). Yes, it stinks if I am standing on line for a ride and watching fast pass holders moving right up to the front, but if I am standing in that line, it usually means that I chose to get a fast pass for another ride and therefore had to accept getting on standby for that particular ride. But, in the end, it was my choice and no one was discriminating against me.

 

[YoHo]

The problem is that it's had a significant impact on the quality and quantity of the A-D attractions and it's had a huge huge impact on the perceived busyness of the park.
Fast pass reduces options and increases crowding. It's allowed Disney to slash it's attraction hours.

And, it didn't even succeed at it's original goal.

Sure, it would be a PR problem for Disney to drop it completely, but I don't think it would be as big a problem as is being made out...as long as the additional A-D attractions are restored.

I went to WDW a LOT prior to fast pass and I never had a problem getting in every atttraction I wanted to on my visit and my visits were shorter than the current norm. So suggesting you NEED fast pass is balderdash.

 

[doconeill]

And, it didn't even succeed at it's original goal.

Honest question here - we've talked about various intents, but do we know what the actual original intent was? Do we know for a fact it was to get guests out of lines and in to stores specifically? Or it was just to get them out of lines in general, with the _hope_ that they go into stores?

If the latter, I think it has worked. Guests not waiting in long, slow moving lines are generally happier. At least until it becomes impossible to move around because everyone else isn't waiting in a line and clogging the pathways.

 

[raidermatt]

Honest question here - we've talked about various intents, but do we know what the actual original intent was? Do we know for a fact it was to get guests out of lines and in to stores specifically? Or it was just to get them out of lines in general, with the _hope_ that they go into stores?

A project with the costs of FP had to have a pretty elaborate business case attached to it, complete with anticipated revenues and tons of market data. No way something like that gets approved in a corporate environment such as Disney's based on the "hope" that guests will go into stores. Whoever was pushing had to have sold that as a given. It would never have been approved otherwise.

If the latter, I think it has worked. Guests not waiting in long, slow moving lines are generally happier. At least until it becomes impossible to move around because everyone else isn't waiting in a line and clogging the pathways.

To an extent I agree with the first part. Most (not all) of the guests that use FP like it and would not be happy if it went away. But there are a lot of people that don't use it, or don't use it wisely, and they are not happier. As somebody pointed out, it's not an "unfair" system since everybody has the right to use it, but that doesn't change the fact that those who don't are unhappier.

As for the crowding, that's a big reason why it's more of an issue at DL. The pathways are narrower, and having more people walking around from ride to ride, ride to bench, ride to store, whatever, has made it tougher to move around which is a problem during busier times.

Sure, it would be a PR problem for Disney to drop it completely, but I don't think it would be as big a problem as is being made out...as long as the additional A-D attractions are restored.

I agree that should be part of the complete solution, but I honestly don't even think it's a remote possibility they would do that. They'd find some way to justify the FP removal, but it wouldn't involve bringing back keel boats and sky buckets.

 

[SanFranciscan]

Before fastpass the now standby line seemed to flow at a steady pace. Now it is move a little, wait, move a little, wait.

I see nothing wrong with fastpass being eliminated and everyone gets an equal chance to get on a ride.

I agree, but I think that your words are going to fall on deaf ears here. I do not work for Disney, but I think that it is not just the responsibility of Disney employees to make sure that we have a good time. To get some pixie dust we have to be willing to spread some ourselves. The big rush to get the limited number of fast passes creates a monkeys grabbing grapes scenario, which I think creates more hostility in the parks.

 

[Goofy4]

No way something like that gets approved in a corporate environment such as Disney's based on the "hope" that guests will go into stores.

Unless the competition is doing it (or will soon) and it is seen as a competitive advantage.

Per Hillary: NO WAY! NO HOW! NO FASTPASS! (meaning, I must have it!)

I'm selling t-shirts (if this is even remotely for real) Something of a different name would likely replace it, but I'm sure the Execs would try to avoid a 2-class system. As mentioned, the rush to pick up fast-passes in the morning and the lack-of fastpasses later in the day is very much un-Disneyesque and I'm sure they would like to do something about that.

 

[Lavender_Blue]

Like other people have said, I love the FP. I don't just use it to get into a ride faster with my DF, but if he wants to ride a ride that I don't - I don't have to wait long for him if he has a FP (this is a WDW example - he wanted to ride ToT and it didn't have a single rider line for some reason). I waited for him in the shop in the meantime. And I looked around...and got very attached to this book about the Haunted Mansion (my favorite ride in the MK) and after my fiancee was done I had bought it was reading it ravenously.

I think in WDW the FP works just fine.

In DL...I don't know. I've been there only twice - the first time was September 23, 2007 (so I got to see it when it was delightfully un-crowded) and then the last time was Christmas eve, 2007 (so I also saw it packed).

I agree that because DL has really narrow walk-ways, the FP might tend to make it more crowded. I understand and agree that the people flowing into the ride in the FP line might cause a clog in the stand-by line. It does make sense. I've seen the Indy ride's stand-by line make Adventureland almost un-crossable with a 180 minute wait.

However, at the same time, I'm not sure if eliminating FP for that ride would eliminate the street clogging. I think DL is just poorly designed as far as Adventureland is concerned. The streets are just too darn narrow to accomodate if a queue isn't long enough for the crowd. Even New Orleans Square can get hard to manuever through with the Pirates ride.

I'm almost thankful to that boring, slow-loading Nemo ride because it manages to draw away SOME of the crowd.

And, I also can't imagine riding Space Mountain without a FP. Maybe they can just keep the FP for that?

A number of attractions have been closed or gone to seasonal or just left to rot, because fewer people are riding them. So, by definition, the general WDW population cannot possibly experiencing more attractions. They MUST be experiencing fewer.

Fast pass doesn't let you see more in the same amount of time. It just shifts the waits around in a different manner. All while clogging the walkways and shuttering A-D attractions.

In the case of DL, I don't know. When I was there I only wanted to ride the rides that were different from WDW - but I did ride mostly everything and I didn't notice anything having too few people on it. But I will say, for WDW, maybe people are forgoing the other rides because Disney needs to get off its butt and renovate/revamp...or, in the case of the Tiki Room, make it go back to the glorious way it was. I can't stand that Iago and Zazu.

 

[Brer Chump]

If they were going to phase it out Fastpass, then they wasted a whole bunch of time and effort getting a patent on a new FP system.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...7,400,932.PN.&OS=PN/7,400,932&RS=PN/7,400,932

 

[CarrianneB]

And, it didn't even succeed at it's original goal.

Sure, it would be a PR problem for Disney to drop it completely, but I don't think it would be as big a problem as is being made out...as long as the additional A-D attractions are restored.

I went to WDW a LOT prior to fast pass and I never had a problem getting in every atttraction I wanted to on my visit and my visits were shorter than the current norm. So suggesting you NEED fast pass is balderdash.

I'm not sure any of us know the original goal - and frankly it no longer matters. If they drop FP, they will lose business. Some folks will go to Univeral where they can get it if they pay for it - or they just won't come because of the lines.

When DW started, they were able to manage attraction lines by pricing them individually - some rides cost more. Now with the all for one ticket, they need another way. If I come early, I get FP. If I want to sleep in, I get less. It's my choice.

I actually would have no issue if they copied Universal and had me pay for FP treatment. It would be worth it for me, maybe not for others, but that would work. I can pay for a shorter wait - not everyone would think that is a good use of funds, but each to their own. Not everyone thinks DW is a good use of funds.

 

[KYMickey]

If they were going to phase it out Fastpass, then they wasted a whole bunch of time and effort getting a patent on a new FP system.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...7,400,932.PN.&OS=PN/7,400,932&RS=PN/7,400,932

If you notice this patent application was filed two years ago and times have certainly changed since then. What may have been a good idea then may not be now.

 

[drakester]

I love fastpass. I for one would hate to see it go!

 

[Mitzicat]

I see a few problems with what you could call a new fast pass system. You have to register a wireless device and get basically a text message. Somehow I think that could be easily hacked and many many issues and problems could come out of that.

While on a trip to Anaheim in July, I got the chance to visit with a business associate and his family (wife and 4 kids) at DL. Being a big kid I had fun, but he let me in on a little secret. The DL Fastpass systems are not linked. So this means that he had Fastpasses for over 5 different rides at one time. I asked him how he did this and he said he just went up to each machine and stuck his ticket in. It would either reject it or give him a FP.

Just some food for thought

 

[raidermatt]

The DL Fastpass systems are not linked. So this means that he had Fastpasses for over 5 different rides at one time. I asked him how he did this and he said he just went up to each machine and stuck his ticket in. It would either reject it or give him a FP.

DL is not linked to DCA. Two different systems. Also, last I heard, Grizzly River Run and Roger Rabbit were "standalone" machines. Meaning having a FP on another ride has no bearing on your ability to get a FP on either of these rides, and viceversa.

Plus, if the time between your FP issuance and when it becomes valid is greater than two hours, you will be able to get a FP for any other ride at that time. (That time will be printed on your ticket)

Even further, the end times on the FP windows are not enforced (the date often is, but not the time).

So I could see having 5 FPs at once that are ready to use.

Of course, things like this are the reason FP benefits some and hurts others. It's not at all reasonable to expect most new visitors to know about and understand how to use all this information.

If you notice this patent application was filed two years ago and times have certainly changed since then. What may have been a good idea then may not be now.

Exactly. Some patents are filed "just in case" and are never actually used.

That said, I actually think there is a greater chance they will enhance and/or change the system eventually than there is that they will get rid of it.

Not saying that's the right thing to do necessarily, I just don't think they will get rid of it.

 

[Pete W.]

Of course, things like this are the reason FP benefits some and hurts others. It's not at all reasonable to expect most new visitors to know about and understand how to use all this information.

Between official & unofficial guides and (especially) the internet, one can do in-depth research on any place of interest and be extremely well-prepared and know most of the 'insider tricks' without ever having visited before. I'm sure you're not suggesting that the people waiting for 2 hours to ride Soarin' while I'm blowing by them with my FP in-hand lack the intelligence to grasp the FP system. They either CHOSE to wait in the line (maybe they intentionally slept-in, got to Epcot late and just decided they wanted to ride Soarin' no matter how long it took) or they CHOSE to visit a huge, complicated and super-popular vacation destination without sufficient planning.

Why do the greatest number of visitors to the Disney theme parks (or any theme parks, water parks, museums, zoos, beaches, etc.) ALWAYS arrive at peak attendance times each and every day rather than when the attraction first opens? I don't think it's lack of intelligence. Some people will just never arrive early or do any advance planning. It's not my fault and I wouldn't describe them as being 'hurt.' Actually, I'm glad the greatest number of MK visitors are streaming into the park between 12 and 2pm while I'm leaving for my afternoon break (a tip which is in everything from the Unoffical Guide to the free WDW planning DVD). And of course I'll have FPs in my pocket for Space Mountain or Splash Mountain which I'll use when I reenter the park that evening.

 

[WDWFan4Life]

I have not read all the posts in this forum, but I am in the group that hates FP. I feel it is one of the worst things and does not help wait times at all. I have worked at Test Track and can vouch for how badly FP can delay the Standby Line.

The way that TT loads is there are two briefing rooms to load the guests into. The 1st can hold around 60 guests at a time and the second can hold 40. If the FP line has 100 people in it when loading begins 60 will be loaded into the 1st room and then about 20 will be loaded into the 2nd, while another 20 are taking from the standby line and placed into the second room. That is 80 FP for 20 Standby and the FP guests don't stop coming they continue to enter the line which means that the 1st room will continually be filled with 60 FP guests while everyone else has to wait. There have been times where this has resulted in the standby line extending out to the marquee sign and creating a wait of 90 mins or more.

However on a day where FP isn't working for whatever reason all the guests are required to enter through the standby line. Once they get to the end of the line a total of 60 standby can be loaded into the 1st room and then 40 into the second, and this will continue as each room empties onto the other side allowing for a more continuous loading process. Even if the standby line becomes long and extends to the marquee the line is still able to move constantly and the wait usually doesn't exceed 40 mins.

Of course with TT there is always the possibility of a technical malfunction, which will end up increasing the wait time even more. Especially when all the people with FP prior and during the breakdown time come back and wait in the line, which causes both the FP line and Standby line to extend out past the marquee.

 

[doconeill]

The way that TT loads is there are two briefing rooms to load the guests into. The 1st can hold around 60 guests at a time and the second can hold 40. If the FP line has 100 people in it when loading begins 60 will be loaded into the 1st room and then about 20 will be loaded into the 2nd, while another 20 are taking from the standby line and placed into the second room. That is 80 FP for 20 Standby and the FP guests don't stop coming they continue to enter the line which means that the 1st room will continually be filled with 60 FP guests while everyone else has to wait. There have been times where this has resulted in the standby line extending out to the marquee sign and creating a wait of 90 mins or more.

Aren't there three briefing rooms?

Regardless, if they are getting 60-100 Fastpass riders per rider cycle, they are giving out way too many Fastpasses per time increment.

And if I recall correctly, when we were there in April of 1999, prior to Fastpass, the wait times were over 60-90 minutes. And that was prior to the frequent breakdowns. Of course it was brand new then.

 

[WDWFan4Life]

Aren't there three briefing rooms?

Regardless, if they are getting 60-100 Fastpass riders per rider cycle, they are giving out way too many Fastpasses per time increment.

And if I recall correctly, when we were there in April of 1999, prior to Fastpass, the wait times were over 60-90 minutes. And that was prior to the frequent breakdowns. Of course it was brand new then.

Yes there are 3 briefing rooms, the third one is used strictly for single riders, which is a whole other issues that I don't want to get into. Many of the people that are riding TT come back after their time has come and gone, which is the reason why there are so many people in the FP line. There are many times when managers will remove a certain time period of fast passes so none are giving out for that time, yet the line is still outrageous. I'm sure that the 60 - 90 min wait times were a result of the ride being new. There is the possibility of the wait being around 60 mins when there is no fast pass available, but not usually ever anything longer than that.

 

[Pete W.]

Then to Doconeil's point, the problem you have with FP has nothing to do with the FP system itself but the way it is implemented at a particular attraction (too many FPs being issued at TT). The FP system can be a wonderful idea, implemented well at most attractions and enjoyed by most guests, but it could still be screwed up due to poor judgement by management at a particular attraction (I'm not saying this is the case at TT, but admitting it's possible). Your isolated example is not reason to condemn the whole system. I always use FP at TT and think it works perfect for me.

 

[WDWFan4Life]

I was just using TT as an example because that is where I have the most experience since I have worked at that attraction. I have other friends that work at different attractions around WDW that also use FP and they have the same problems as TT. I never even condemned the whole system, I hate FP yes this is true, but that is my opinion.