Extra Magic Hours Still Exist

[JimmyV]

With respect to "standard" hours ending at 7:00...I can find no support for that. Has it happened? Absolutely. Been there and done that. I actually enjoyed it. I thought I would hate it. But in the early 2000's, we went when the MK closed at 7:00 some days, (and Epcot always closed at 9:00 and AK always closed at 5:00 and DHS fluctuated, but 8:00 was pretty much the norm.) I was always used to late nights at the MK and thought that the early closing times would be a hinderance. But the parks were so empty (and we had a young child), that we didn't need more time. And the early closing time allowed us to do lots of other "overlooked" stuff. So let's not get too caught up in early closing times because they typically correspond to times when the crowd levels are 1-3 at the MK. I'd take a "2" day that closes at 7:00 or 8:00 over an "8" day that closes at midnight every time.

That said, I just looked at January for 2012, 2015 and 2016, as that is generally considered to be a "slower" month. I eliminated 1/1-1/4 as those days are still part of the crowded Christmas/New Year's season. So starting with 1/5 and going to 1/31 for the three years considered, we find this:

Number of days when the MK closed at:

2012
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 8
8:00 with EMH = 1
9:00 with no EMH = 7
9:00 with EMH = 1
10:00 with no EMH = 4
10:00 with EMH = 1
11:00 with no EMH = 1
11:00 with EMH = 0
12:00 with no EMH = 2
12:00 with EMH = 1
1:00 with no EMH = 1

2015
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 5
8:00 with EMH = 0
9:00 with no EMH = 11
9:00 with EMH = 1
10:00 with no EMH = 2
10:00 with EMH = 0
11:00 with no EMH = 2
11:00 with EMH = 1
12:00 with no EMH = 1
12:00 with EMH = 2
1:00 with no EMH = 2

2016
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 6
8:00 with EMH = 2
9:00 with no EMH = 4
9:00 with EMH = 2
10:00 with no EMH = 2
10:00 with EMH = 0
11:00 with no EMH = 6
11:00 with EMH = 0
12:00 with no EMH = 5
12:00 with EMH = 0
1:00 with no EMH = 0

There really is no obvious pattern here, though it could be argued that there is actually a trend toward later hours, (probably in part due to added events or events that are growing in popularity such as road races.) Breaking it down into three segments, we can lump 7:00 and 8:00 closures together as "early days". In 2012, there were 9 such days, with 1 having EMH. In 2015, that number dropped to 5 (with no EMH) and in 2016, it was 8, with 2 days having EMH. No real trend.

The "middle" closing times of 9:00 and 10:00 break down as follows: 2012 had 12 such days with 2 EMHs. 2015 had 14 days with 1 EMH and 2016 had 8 days with 2 EMH.

The "late" closing times of 11:00, 12:00 and 1:00 look like this: 2012 had 5 such days with 1 EMH. 2015 had 8 such days with 3 EMHs. 2016 had 11 such days with no EMH. So 2016 had actually more late closure days in this "slow" month, with the significant feature of having no EMHs during those late times. Read into it what you will. But my takeaway is that at least during January, guests haven't been robbed of any park time in the past couple of years as compared to before. But they are missing the ability to enjoy very late EMHs. The absolute latest that the park closed on an EMH day (including the EMH time) in 2016 was 11:00. In 2015, the latest closure was 2:00 a.m. (once); and in 2012, the EMHs went to 11:00, 3:00, 12:00 and 1:00. Conclusion? Regular park hours did not go down in 2016, but late EMH opportunities were abolished.

 

[Lucius Best]

I agree it's not a good example - but as far as I know, not having been to either in years, Six Flags and Canobie Lake don't extend hours or add days or anything comparable.

Not sure why you presented the Jimmy Buffett example if you knew it wasn't good. Now you're making claims about Six Flags and Canobie Lake even though you admit not having been there in years? Are you saying that it's okay for Disney to "non-add" EMH around Easter because Canobie Lake doesn't do it? Not sure how that is relevant, because Six Flags (at least the ones I've been to) and Canobie Lake don't own/operate resort hotels, and thus don't offer EMH to the guests of those resort hotels, because there are no resort hotels.

If you want to talk about extended hours and perks, we should also mention Storyland and Santa's Village in NH. At both of those parks, if you visit after 3pm, you get a free ticket to return another day during the season! That's a great deal, but also irrelevant to a Disney EMH discussion.

Oh, the lollipops isn't a good example either. There is still the same weekly EMH there's always been. And even a six year old can understand the lollipop store was closed, or you didn't have enough time this time, or you ran out of money.

The lollipops is a great example. The lollipops obviously don't represent weekly EMH, weekly EMH hasn't gone away. The lollipops represent the daily Easter EMH which were removed this year, or should I saw "non-added". And last I checked, WDW did not close or run out of money (unless you're factoring Shanghai Disneyland cost overruns).

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Are there any non party days where the park closed at 7:00? We've been going for a long time and I can't recall that.

 

[JimmyV]

Are there any non party days where the park closed at 7:00? We've been going for a long time and I can't recall that.

It has happened in the past. But I don't think it has for a long time, other than corporate events and hard ticket events that cause the park to clear out.

 

[Delirium]

Implying the base hours end at 7 o'clock when you can't do a nighttime parade or fireworks in the daylight is unreasonable. I'll counter by saying the base hours end at 9 o'clock (heck, maybe even 10) and that Disney will occasionally adjust those back during slower times of the year when it gets dark earlier.

 

[JimmyV]

I'll counter by saying the base hours end at 9 o'clock (heck, maybe even 10)

I think that the most fair statement is that the base opening hour is 9:00 a.m. and that there is no corresponding base closing hour. Above, I showed what January looks like, and that is a slow month. Adding all three years together, and ignoring EMHs, the number of times the MK closed at:

7:00 = 0
8:00 = 22
9:00 = 26
10:00 = 9
11:00 = 10
12:00 = 11
1:00 = 3

I don't see how anyone can get a "base" figure from that data. And if you move to more crowded months, (meaning every other month other than September, October and November (excepting Thanksgiving)), I think you would find even greater fluctuations. But even if the fluctuations are less, that would mean that the closing times would be later. Such as 11:00 0r 12:00. Bottom line is that neither 7:00 nor 8:00 can be considered a base time in the three of four "slower" months, and those times certainly cannot be considered the "base" in more crowded months. And while 9:00 might seem to be the base time in the couple of slower months that exist, that time surely shifts to a later slot in the more crowded months. I just don't think there is a "base closing time."

 

[Lucius Best]

Are there any non party days where the park closed at 7:00? We've been going for a long time and I can't recall that.

There was a time when I was going to WDW every year in January, back when it was really off-season. I remember days where MK closed at 7pm, but like someone else mentioned previously, it was so dead that we did everything multiple times and didn't need late hours, we'd hop to Epcot almost every night. Looking at my planning notes, I found some days in 2007 where MK was scheduled to close at 7pm. The argument that MK has "standard" park hours of 9am-7pm is ludicrous.

 

[Nancyg56]

With respect to "standard" hours ending at 7:00...I can find no support for that. Has it happened? Absolutely. Been there and done that. I actually enjoyed it. I thought I would hate it. But in the early 2000's, we went when the MK closed at 7:00 some days, (and Epcot always closed at 9:00 and AK always closed at 5:00 and DHS fluctuated, but 8:00 was pretty much the norm.) I was always used to late nights at the MK and thought that the early closing times would be a hinderance. But the parks were so empty (and we had a young child), that we didn't need more time. And the early closing time allowed us to do lots of other "overlooked" stuff. So let's not get too caught up in early closing times because they typically correspond to times when the crowd levels are 1-3 at the MK. I'd take a "2" day that closes at 7:00 or 8:00 over an "8" day that closes at midnight every time.

That said, I just looked at January for 2012, 2015 and 2016, as that is generally considered to be a "slower" month. I eliminated 1/1-1/4 as those days are still part of the crowded Christmas/New Year's season. So starting with 1/5 and going to 1/31 for the three years considered, we find this:

Number of days when the MK closed at:

2012
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 8
8:00 with EMH = 1
9:00 with no EMH = 7
9:00 with EMH = 1
10:00 with no EMH = 4
10:00 with EMH = 1
11:00 with no EMH = 1
11:00 with EMH = 0
12:00 with no EMH = 2
12:00 with EMH = 1
1:00 with no EMH = 1

2015
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 5
8:00 with EMH = 0
9:00 with no EMH = 11
9:00 with EMH = 1
10:00 with no EMH = 2
10:00 with EMH = 0
11:00 with no EMH = 2
11:00 with EMH = 1
12:00 with no EMH = 1
12:00 with EMH = 2
1:00 with no EMH = 2

2016
7:00 with no EMH = 0
7:00 with EMH = 0
8:00 with no EMH = 6
8:00 with EMH = 2
9:00 with no EMH = 4
9:00 with EMH = 2
10:00 with no EMH = 2
10:00 with EMH = 0
11:00 with no EMH = 6
11:00 with EMH = 0
12:00 with no EMH = 5
12:00 with EMH = 0
1:00 with no EMH = 0

There really is no obvious pattern here, though it could be argued that there is actually a trend toward later hours, (probably in part due to added events or events that are growing in popularity such as road races.) Breaking it down into three segments, we can lump 7:00 and 8:00 closures together as "early days". In 2012, there were 9 such days, with 1 having EMH. In 2015, that number dropped to 5 (with no EMH) and in 2016, it was 8, with 2 days having EMH. No real trend.

The "middle" closing times of 9:00 and 10:00 break down as follows: 2012 had 12 such days with 2 EMHs. 2015 had 14 days with 1 EMH and 2016 had 8 days with 2 EMH.

The "late" closing times of 11:00, 12:00 and 1:00 look like this: 2012 had 5 such days with 1 EMH. 2015 had 8 such days with 3 EMHs. 2016 had 11 such days with no EMH. So 2016 had actually more late closure days in this "slow" month, with the significant feature of having no EMHs during those late times. Read into it what you will. But my takeaway is that at least during January, guests haven't been robbed of any park time in the past couple of years as compared to before. But they are missing the ability to enjoy very late EMHs. The absolute latest that the park closed on an EMH day (including the EMH time) in 2016 was 11:00. In 2015, the latest closure was 2:00 a.m. (once); and in 2012, the EMHs went to 11:00, 3:00, 12:00 and 1:00. Conclusion? Regular park hours did not go down in 2016, but late EMH opportunities were abolished.

I am the laziest person on the planet! Lol! I knew the early hours in MK had occurred when I was there, but honestly paid no attention to when or if there was a pattern.

 

[Delirium]

I think that the most fair statement is that the base opening hour is 9:00 a.m. and that there is no corresponding base closing hour. Above, I showed what January looks like, and that is a slow month. Adding all three years together, and ignoring EMHs, the number of times the MK closed at:

7:00 = 0
8:00 = 22
9:00 = 26
10:00 = 9
11:00 = 10
12:00 = 11
1:00 = 3

I don't see how anyone can get a "base" figure from that data. And if you move to more crowded months, (meaning every other month other than September, October and November (excepting Thanksgiving)), I think you would find even greater fluctuations. But even if the fluctuations are less, that would mean that the closing times would be later. Such as 11:00 0r 12:00. Bottom line is that neither 7:00 nor 8:00 can be considered a base time in the three of four "slower" months, and those times certainly cannot be considered the "base" in more crowded months. And while 9:00 might seem to be the base time in the couple of slower months that exist, that time surely shifts to a later slot in the more crowded months. I just don't think there is a "base closing time."

I wasn't actually promoting that there was a base time for end of day. Rather, I was making a point that I, too, could throw out a random time with little or no justification, yet still come up with something that made more sense than 7 o'clock (which makes no sense at all given the nighttime entertainment component to the equation).

 

[dfb]

Yes. Not creating or scheduling additional something isn't the cut people are claiming it to be. If last year there was one Jimmy Buffett concert scheduled at Fenway Park and then another one was added, and this year one Jimmy Buffett concert is scheduled at Fenway Park and another one isn't added, that doesn't mean the venue cut the number of concerts. It means they didn't add any.

If last April there were four morning EMH scheduled and then [nine] more were added, and this year five morning EMH are scheduled and more aren't added, that doesn't mean the venue cut the number of EMH. It means they didn't add any.

I guess Gi-Tar Dan wasn't really cut then!! I get it now, He just wasn't added on 12 Mar 2016. (or ever again!!) Give me a break!!

 

[HopperFan]

I don't think there are standard MK hours since they fluctuate so much from month to month, year to year.

But IF we were to try and determine what it might be, based on the data presented I would say night closing "standard" is closer to 8 or 9 pm (and that is similar to UO's more strict hours).

I don't know that it even matters at all or worthy of a discussion. Has MK closed at 7 pm in previous years for no apparent reason, yes. Has it stayed open some nights until midnight for no obvious reason, yes. Can they truly implement shorter evening hours at MK successfully? yes - look at Epcot.

What does apply to this conversation is that CM hours are being cut to the point some are leaving or getting second jobs because they can't live on the pay. When Disney cuts their CM hours to the point that they are reducing their staff, particularly good staff .... parks can't be maintained long hours. CMs are the backbone of the operation. Disney is willingly cutting back in that area. It only makes sense that future hours are in jeopardy.

 

[dfb]

With some of these arguments I'm not sure what I'm dealing with:

1. A troll - doing their thing!
2. A Disney Exec - doing their thing!
3. My kids - who would argue with a sign post!

 

[Delirium]

What does apply to this conversation is that CM hours are being cut to the point some are leaving or getting second jobs because they can't live on the pay. When Disney cuts their CM hours to the point that they are reducing their staff, particularly good staff .... parks can't be maintained long hours. CMs are the backbone of the operation. Disney is willingly cutting back in that area. It only makes sense that future hours are in jeopardy.

I agree with your comments about CMs. And, what's depressing is that the cuts do not seem be be necessary for what's happening at Walt Disney World Orlando. Rather, either Orlando is either being dumped on to prop up other non-performing areas of the company, or company management has gone off the reservation with greed.

 

[TLSnell1981]

All I know, we are visiting during MNSSHP. MK closes three nights at 7:00pm for parties. The others close at 8:00 or 9:00 with one EMH. Can't believe they are closing so early. Rumor has it...3 more hours for "just" an extra "$150".

 

[JimmyV]

I wasn't actually promoting that there was a base time for end of day. Rather, I was making a point that I, too, could throw out a random time with little or no justification,

Yes. I got that. Even though I quoted you, I did not do so to call you out for being "wrong". Rather, simply to illustrate that almost any number can be justified....except 7:00 p.m..

 

[Angel Ariel]

Until JimmyV researched his detailed analysis, everybody has focused on AprilAprilApril.

No, actually, not everyone was focused on April before jimmy's in depth analysis.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

I agree with your comments about CMs. And, what's depressing is that the cuts do not seem be be necessary for what's happening at Walt Disney World Orlando. Rather, either Orlando is either being dumped on to prop up other non-performing areas of the company, or company management has gone off the reservation with greed.

I think corporate greed is always an easy answer with any publicly traded company. When CEO pay is tied directly to stock performance they will only focus on stock performance.

I do think that there is another option though and that is corporate incompetence. Look at the primary leadership of a company and when most of them are from the outside and don't have experience in customer service or even the actual industry they are in that becomes a problem. When you're recruiting decision makers from the investment banking industry that's not a sign that the consumer is your target anymore. Focusing on profits and gains is one thing but losing focus on how you get these things is always a problem. This is compounded also by an obvious lack of leadership with true project management experience as they've now seen their last few projects enter a period of potentially unrecoverable scope creep.

 

[Mikie]

@JimmyV thanks so much for compiling the details! I was getting lost in the anecdotal stories and it's so helpful to have the thorough specifics.

I don't care if it's a cut or a "non addition" and if they're called EMH or Morning Magic, or regular operating hours or Super Happy Fun Time Hours. The detail supports what many "knew" but hadn't spelled out - there has been a great reduction of total hours available during this busy spring time. Yes, we could go back years further to a time when EMH didn't yet exist and call everything we have now an "addition" compared to those years. However, in legalese they would discuss the "reasonable person" concept - and a "reasonable person" planning a vacation in 2016 would look at posted hours plus tribal knowledge about recent years. That Reasonable Person should be warned that the knowledge and
advice and experiences in guidebooks and web sites seems to be undergoing a seismic shift that needs to be factored into travel decisions.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I guess Gi-Tar Dan wasn't really cut then!! I get it now, He just wasn't added on 12 Mar 2016. (or ever again!!) Give me a break!!

Gi-Tar Dan was cut. Four for a Dollar was cut. The third hour of Evening EMH was cut. There being one Morning MK EMH each week in April just like the three previous and four following months (and as was originally scheduled in April 2015) isn't a cut.

 

[kaytieeldr]

With some of these arguments I'm not sure what I'm dealing with:

1. A troll - doing their thing!
2. A Disney Exec - doing their thing!
3. My kids - who would argue with a sign post!

1. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
It's regrettable that you think it's possible my maintaining and defending my opinion is any kind of attempt to cause disruption.
2. Ideally you're being facetious because (a) a Disney Executive wouldn't be posting anonymously or at all - and certainly not for over ten years on such disparate topics.
3. If this were so, which it's not, you do realize you've just referred to almost everyone who's nit me as a sign post, right?