EU / US argument threat to flights?

[mikki.young]

Well, now that the EU has ruled that airlines can't give the US the info they want on passengers and has given until October for a compromise to be reached, does anyone believe the papers saying that flights will be grounded from October?

 

[alisonbestford]

I'd be surprised if this happens as the loss of income from tourism would be pretty drastic!

I'm not in the least bit 'politically' minded so can't offer anything more constructive but, as I said, I'd be extrememly surprised

 

[themurrayfamily]

I'd be surprised to! What information are they after?

 

[alisonbestford]

I'd be surprised to! What information are they after?

Info on criminal convictions maybe?

 

[tartangirl]

Sounds like the Advance Passenger Information

Here's the story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5028918.stm

 

[alisonbestford]

Thanks

 

[mikki.young]

Sounds like the Advance Passenger Information

Here's the story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5028918.stm

Thanks I'd seen the report in a scaremongering newspaper not online. That gives a much more positive slant on the same story. I can't believe they won't find an agreement either but both sides can be a bit bullheaded

 

[jaberwocky]

They want a list of passenger names which they check against known names on no fly lists and any name flagged up by anti terror agencies that's all no big deal don't know what all the fuss is about.

 

[Shooby doo]

As I understand it the list of passenger names isn't the stumbling block but the fact that they also want all the card details,addresses etc & with ID theft a big thing at the moment,this may be the problem.I'm sure they will bring in some super dooper secure system & it will all be resolved
SD

 

[patdavies]

They want a list of passenger names which they check against known names on no fly lists and any name flagged up by anti terror agencies that's all no big deal don't know what all the fuss is about.

What they want is the PNR data that accompanies your booking/ticketing. Not just a list of names.

the following uis from FAQ on the US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) website


3. What type of information will CBP receive about me through PNR?
CBP will receive certain PNR data concerning persons traveling on flights to, from or through the U.S. Airlines create PNR data in the reservation systems for each itinerary booked for a passenger. Such PNR data may also be contained in the air carrier departure control systems.
The PNR data contain a variety of information provided routinely by a customer, such as the passenger’s name, contact details, details of the travel itinerary (such as date of travel, origin and destination, seat number, and number of bags) and details of the reservation (such as travel agency and payment information). The PNR may include other information voluntarily provided by a customer during the booking process (such as affiliation with a frequent flier program).

4. Is sensitive data included in the PNR data transfer?
CBP deletes certain PNR data identified as “sensitive” which may be included in the PNR when it is transferred from reservation and/or air carrier departure systems in the EU to CBP. Such “sensitive” PNR data would include certain information revealing the passenger's racial or ethnic origin, political opinion, religion, health status or sexual preference.

Note that the sensitive personal data is still required to be transmitted to the US and deleted there. If they don't intend to use it or need it, why must it be transmitted. Also the CBP will share the data with other US agencies.

 

[Amyrlin]

In practice this means the details we give of where we are staying for the first night and passport detials. I am fairly sure this does not include the passing on of credit card details etc. (but not certian).


it will be resolved, the tousist industry is worth to much to the US, hneace the reason they kept extending the deadline for the biometric passports.

 

[gilld]

Tourists are the least of their worries - it will affect business in a big way. But I'm sure they will reach an agreement.

 

[patdavies]

In practice this means the details we give of where we are staying for the first night and passport detials. I am fairly sure this does not include the passing on of credit card details etc. (but not certian).

It is more that then name and anddress of the first night - that was always on the visa waiver form anyway, See my post above - the US require the whole PNR from you booking/ticketing - this does include method of payment, type of ticket, credit card details (if used), links to other tickets (ie a group travelling).

 

[Huggles]

There was a thread on the community board about this too. I don't recall if the bbc source quoted was the same or not but they do want credit card details etc.

Given the instances we have heard of of babes in arms, aged grannies etc being flagged on the computer because their name matches that of someone of interest DESPITE the date of birth not matching and the place of birth being out of sync, it seems that the checks aren't all singing and dancing as they maintain . I mean, they have ALL the details in advance, the passports are rechecked at time of check in(so there is a visual match up too...done on their behalf if the flight originates outwith the US). I mean, if your suspect list states a John Smith aged about 34y.o, why do you flag up a John Smith who is down as an infant sharing their parent's seat? I believe one of the Kennedys ( a senator) is fed up being hauled off for interview and delaying flights because his name matches that of someone on their no fly list.

Also the flights that get to within and hour of their destination and are then diverted to somewhere else as there is a suspect on board ( who turns out not to be the person they are looking for)? Have they not had that info for weeks before? If it was a last minute booking security will have looked at them in depth and will send details on to the destination where they could then question the passenger.

I should state that I am all for security and safety but at least do it in a competent manner. Plus, if you have all my details why do you need my credit card number? Would terrorists not make sure these things tie up?

 

[patdavies]

I should state that I am all for security and safety but at least do it in a competent manner. Plus, if you have all my details why do you need my credit card number? Would terrorists not make sure these things tie up?

I suspect that it is actually a negative search. The PNRs that flag are the ones with no credit card number. They are suspicous of tickets paid in cash.

 

[SimonV]

If anyone ever wanted a reason for scrapping the preposterous, self-serving European Court of Justice, this is it. Anything to create more jobs for the lawyers......

 

[steve_rob]

Simon - As I said on the Community board, I actually disagree. I'm no defender of Europe and the EU, but on this occassion I'm with them 100%.

Considering the appalling record the US Government has with keeping data secret (just last week the social security numbers and other private details of millions of US Army veterans were stolen from from a government employee who shouldn't have had access to them in the first place - probably by people wanting it for identity theft purposes), I'm not happy with certain bits of my personal data being passed to them.

Name, Address, passport number, where I'm staying on holiday - FINE. But what about the other thirty odd fields of data...

Do they really need my credit card details? Note - it's not just a tick box saying "he paid by credit card", but the actual card number, expiry date etc. As someone who has suffered at the hands of card cloning before, I'm VERY wary of giving any data away to people with a history of not taking good care of it.

 

[Amyrlin]

There is an intresting document at
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32802.pdf
If you look at that it also notes that in the uS there were ocncerns over breaching privacy. It also points out many of the failings of any advance system to try and identify specific risks.

 

[florida sun]

Well Ive paid for my tickets with cash, hope I dont have any problems

 

[Amyrlin]

Reading that they have a whole range of data that they use. I have been thinking about this all day and relaisitically, unless they are asking us for a lot of extra data they can only be given what the travel agent/airline has, which is our peronal detials, such as address etc, payment details, and it also says they want any frequent flyer details, so that may give some travel history.


The only sensitive peice of data is the payment detials with the card numbers, I do not see why they would need that, just a method pf payment and perhaps the type of card.

They are proabley using metrics of some type and looking at a range of data, such as how long before the flight was booked, how it was paid for, number in the party, types fo tickets etc.

I really do not think you have naything to worry about the immigration porceedures. However, I am concerned regarding the securrty of all that personal data held togehter in one place just asking for ID theft.