Epcot to get major transformations

[George4]

Of the overhaul rumor posted?

It's really disjointed and doesn't address the decline of future world enough:

1. Imagination needs a complete overhaul...not just an overlay.a
2. Innoventions will still be a problem if they only address half...that's an issue.
3. Guardians of the galaxy in energy is silly...just no way around that.
4. Misssion space might need to go. it just does. Not the kind of thing that's gonna last too long. Can wait on that though.
5.WOL needs to be replaced. Plain and simple...you can't try to accommodate larger crowds on a computerized ride rationing system with less things than 20 years ago.

As far as the showcase goes...why not start in the empty facilities in Germany and Japan? Start there...use what you have and then move on. I don't entirely get that strategy...because I'm not sure they have one. They are proposing pieces without trying to see if they make a puzzle.

You're not thinking like Disney. That's the problem. Get ride of everything that can't be directly monetized today. Very short-sighted vision. That's the new Disney. They can sell more plush dolls of GoG right away, rather than build a new base of consumers for 50 years. Who cares about that?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Can I just say: I'm so impressed with George4's comments on Epcot here that I feel like a 13 year old girl front row at a Bieber concert...

 

[George4]

We still haven't gotten anything close to a good reason for closing wonders of life...

Lots of "e" excuses...but nothing resembling what I believe to be the truth: the sponsor went away and they closed it to save a few minimum wage employees costs...

The 3 attractions in wonders - if dated - still represent a lot more interesting experiences than much of what remains.

Not just interesting, but everyone I know absolutely loved all of them. Body wars, while being a simulator (which I don't prefer personally), was very entertaining. Update, bring back the simulator cars and fire up the whole pavilion. Quit being cheap.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You're not thinking like Disney. That's the problem. Get ride of everything that can't be directly monetized today. Very short-sighted vision. That's the new Disney. They can sell more plush dolls of GoG right away, rather than build a new base of consumers for 50 years. Who cares about that?

That's iger...tv suit mentality...which is why I can't stand the guy.

Part of any construction - especially renovations - is a feasibility study. It's not just about can we do it and how much it costs? It's also about "what is the useful life of this?" And "how will the investment play out over the long run?"

This shoehorning shows a complete lack of sense of that. This is more like the cheap sitcom guy that Eisner said was "too dumb to run the place"

 

[George4]

The lounge

But they permenantly screwed that up...the elephant in the room.

They had two great pavilions with some of the best examples of EDUTAINMENT in the 90's...

Now they 0.5 of a pavilion that's an embarrassment...and a dvc lounge.

People wonder why I'm hard on Bob Iger? Look not to much farther than this...

And the idiot Parks and wdw management...which frankly has never recovered since the late Eisner purge.

But they permenantly screwed that up...the elephant in the room.

They had two great pavilions with some of the best examples of EDUTAINMENT in the 90's...

Now they 0.5 of a pavilion that's an embarrassment...and a dvc lounge.

People wonder why I'm hard on Bob Iger? Look not to much farther than this...

And the idiot Parks and wdw management...which frankly has never recovered since the late Eisner purge.

The DVC lounge is very nice though.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The DVC lounge is very nice though.

I have no desire to go in it. Think I want to hear a sales pitch for something they raised the price of 100% in my 10 years of owning it?

Nope...not looking to "flip that hotel room"

 

[amberpi]

And you might not want to believe all this nonsense...you're falling for the "new country" gag? Honestly that's like a dog peeing on an electric fence.
QUOTE]

This is probably my resolute positivity showing, but you really don't think they'd get some serious ROI on a new pavilion? I always thought they could build a new one and use it as a launch pad to announce an ongoing "Food and Wine" festival. People love it (crowds to prove it) and you know they have to be tracking the pp spend on that thing, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to replicate it year long. I'd love more of your (and anyone's) thoughts on this. I'd think it'd be a big pull, and honestly a bigger and longer lasting pull than Pandora. Its like a whole new land, but much smaller, ergo, cheaper and another venue for additional dining,

 

[Ava L]

I think it's wrong of Disney to assume that kids won't want to see anything non-IP in EPCOT. I'm nineteen, and I know for a fact that visiting EPCOT when I was a kid helped push me into wanting to pursue a career in engineering today (Imagineering or otherwise). I remember riding Journey into Imagination when I was younger and spending days thinking about how "one little spark" is all it takes to do great things, and exploring Innoventions and learning about technology that I could use. I even remember riding Body Wars with my dad and being so fascinated by everything that FW had to offer. None of it was movie IP, but that didn't make it boring or forgettable. If anything, it made me want to go back! So, I hope whatever they decide to do, they keep the original mission of EPCOT there. I think it's sad that Disney would rather sell out to the fad of the day rather than use the chance to make a real impact. SO many kids are interested in science/STEM that I think it's a shame to just plop useless rides in there.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

No...because the reason they never added more countries was because they couldn't hold the host over a barrel to pay for upkeep and fund the operation.

That's why the 3 "coming soon" posters put up IN the park in 1983 never happened and why only 2 others squeaked in...one financed by a uber rich oil baron and the other by a conglomerate that collapsed before it ever opened.

And why there's been not a sniff in the 30 years since.

 

[George4]

Given what we know of costs for Pandora, SWL, and TSL, I'm thinking Futureworld alone needs well over 1 billion. While FEA cost somewhere in the 100-200 million for an overlay and line redo, there isn't much in FW that can suffice with that little work. That means you are looking close to 250-500 million per ride. If you think about Imagination, complete gut and rebuild for both ride and movie, that's got to be in the upper part of the range. UoE is a full re-construction judging from the permits, so that is mid to upper part of the range, Innoventions needs to be gutted and something put in there. What they choose to do could keep the spend down there, or drive it to the top of the range if they go with a real attraction. Personally I think it becomes a mall with some small attractions, so it probably goes to the bottom of the range. And then WoL if they bring it back, needs a full rebuild. The ride is long gone and after so long I can't imagine you can just tweak Cranium Command and retheme it to get it moving again. So those three pavilions alone, Imagination, UoE, and WoL are looking well over $1b. What they choose to do with Innoventions, updating the last scene of Spaceship Earth, redoing the graveyard and spine, updating Nemo which seems to be on the list, possible plussing in The Land, the Mission Space refurb which might have some plussing, all this stuff adds up with a few million to 100 million here and there and then it's another 500MM to 1B.

Then you talk about adding Rat, a few hundred million, a B/C in UK is going to be over 10MM, and 2 new pavilions? Plus a possible overlay for Mexico? Yeah. Close to a billion more in the back and that doesn't include International Gateway upgrades for the transport and something with the aging Illuminations.

So with all the rumors, hopes, and dreams, we are looking at 2-3B in my opinion. That's a lot of money. Think about it this way, EPCOT hosted 11.98 million guests in 2015. At $75 a pop (a few years back plus most people don't pay 1 day sticker price every day), that's less than $1B. So you are talking 2 to 3 years worth of ticket sales to pay for the things we are floating around.

You are likely correct on your financing statements at the end. However, you are neglecting to realize that there are connected revenue's to the parks that help to increase that revenue number a lot. Profit on the restaurants, the quick service food, the stores, and the hotel's all lead to an improved revenue model. If you want to understand these numbers, you should look through Disney's annual report. While it isn't broken down by park at all, their profit in 2015 from the parks (overall) was just over $3 billion. They've made more the past two years. While all of that can't be dumped into one park at one time, if you plan to spend around $3billion per park every four years, you would have amazing advances in these parks. Now, do it for around half that at WDW, and you still have amazing improvements after almost 20 years of needed catch-up.

 

[amberpi]

No...because the reason they never added more countries was because they couldn't hold the host over a barrel to pay for upkeep and fund the operation.

That's why the 3 "coming soon" posters put up IN the park in 1983 never happened and why only 2 others squeaked in...one financed by a uber rich oil baron and the other by a conglomerate that collapsed before it ever opened.

And why there's been no a sniff in the 30 years since.

I keep hoping they'll realize that the model is broken, but obviously, history shows us they haven't. Le sigh...

 

[George4]

Espn is in a cable death spiral...

Subscriber loss = loss of advertising revenue = carriers playing hardball due to loss of revenue = slashing of costs/talent at the network = hairbrain schemes by management to "save" it.

All those things are exaclty what's happening. Disney needs parks to be its primary revenue/profit generator moving forward.

Why was a rotting Epcot ok ten years ago and now seems "not to be"?

1+1=2

Disagree with you here on the parks. There should be some balance between media, parks, consumer products and Studio's. Of these, Media Networks still generate more than 50% of the operating income (profit) for Disney. The other 3 areas need some serious love and attention.

 

[George4]

I don't need dvc expansion at this point...what they're doing now isn't a positive...

But beyond that...I always have a healthy skepticism when someone says "I don't care what I pay..." when it comes to this.

That usually is you...as I recall. Good consumers are needed to keep the dealers in line. And good consumers have a sense of value that is demonstrated through their actions.

As I have said...from up here on the wall...a bazillion times: the consumers have been atrocious since 2012...fighting for scraps and paying more for reductions...

I would have liked a line to form and attendance to have dipped to cause reinvestment...now we're on to plan C

Attendance has appeared to finally dip, so maybe there is an awakening. They are making more per guest, but with fewer guests. Rumor that I have heard from a CM in research, is that the numbers are showing big drops in attendance from people going to multiple parks in a day and not going back. Not sure how knowledge she really is, but she indicated the numbers have sparked conversations in the research department about what they are really saying.

 

[George4]

I guess it depends on the kind of person you are. Disney has always had a problem connecting with teens in the thrill ride department, but it doesn't mean all teens are into/want thrill rides. Some people are into deeper more interesting rides (not that thrill rides aren't interesting but you get the point).

I believe you though. I've heard that Epcot had serious identity issues from day one, but I think the question we need to ask ourselves, is the place better off now than it was then

Depends on who you ask. I prefer the old EPCOT rather than the new direction that appears to be a small step above Six Flags. More E-tickets, more E-tickets.

Disney shouldn't worry about capturing the thrill ride market. Have a few of them? Absolutely. However, the family has always been Disney's ticket, and that means a balance of ride types, and park types. Not four of the same thing, which are gradually becoming something that is within 90 minutes of my house and is much cheaper to visit. I don't want just a bunch of rides slapped together. EPCOT was better the old way, and I would like to see them find a way to connect the old EPCOT with the new consumer, rather than just squeeze rides that match a plush toy that can be sold. Find the balance.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Everything that has it turning into a ride park with no respect for what made it unique when it opened, and made it unique for a long time. You want to overhaul Universe of Energy? Please do it. But not by converting it into a GoG roller coaster.Put that ride in DHS. Use UoE for something at least relates to EPCOT's original purpose, or takes it in a new direction. Do SDMT type ride, with the slow sections being about different types of fuel and how they work, or any one of a dozen other possibilities.

I fully agree with this. I am sure there are things we can complain about each of the main 4 parks (or at least things each of us prefer to other aspects) but I really like that they are 4 unique themeparks .... I don't want 4 parks that are more or less the same with just different IPs represented.

and that doesn't mean you can't have IP, but like you said, use the IP to draw in the crowds but then engage them while they are there in a different way than you would in the other parks.

 

[jade1]

So awesome to see the conversations lately isn't about no or minimal expansion activity, but where the next expansions/types are rumored to go to make the most guests happy.
Loving it.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I think it's wrong of Disney to assume that kids won't want to see anything non-IP in EPCOT. I'm nineteen, and I know for a fact that visiting EPCOT when I was a kid helped push me into wanting to pursue a career in engineering today (Imagineering or otherwise). I remember riding Journey into Imagination when I was younger and spending days thinking about how "one little spark" is all it takes to do great things, and exploring Innoventions and learning about technology that I could use. I even remember riding Body Wars with my dad and being so fascinated by everything that FW had to offer. None of it was movie IP, but that didn't make it boring or forgettable. If anything, it made me want to go back! So, I hope whatever they decide to do, they keep the original mission of EPCOT there. I think it's sad that Disney would rather sell out to the fad of the day rather than use the chance to make a real impact. SO many kids are interested in science/STEM that I think it's a shame to just plop useless rides in there.

I agree - though I do think some IP can help make them excited as well

Though, Living with the Land is one of my kids favorites, and obviously no IP there. Nothing on Soarin' either and they love that. Obviously not EPCOT but Expedition Everest is one of my oldest daughter's favorites

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You are likely correct on your financing statements at the end. However, you are neglecting to realize that there are connected revenue's to the parks that help to increase that revenue number a lot. Profit on the restaurants, the quick service food, the stores, and the hotel's all lead to an improved revenue model. If you want to understand these numbers, you should look through Disney's annual report. While it isn't broken down by park at all, their profit in 2015 from the parks (overall) was just over $3 billion. They've made more the past two years. While all of that can't be dumped into one park at one time, if you plan to spend around $3billion per park every four years, you would have amazing advances in these parks. Now, do it for around half that at WDW, and you still have amazing improvements after almost 20 years of needed catch-up.

The problem with the financials In the report is that it isn't segregated by location...so you have no idea what is costing them and what is raking...

Now Disneyland, wdw, and Paris fall in those numbers.

It's likely insane amounts of money are being made in magic kingdoms and not so much in the others...

So that kinda coin in Epcot may be hard to take. The speculation was it took 20 years to pay for it in the first place because it costs so damn much to build and operate...maybe more. Wall st likes debt but only a little bit if it...

And my somewhat educated take is EPCOT and AK are much heavier lb for lb on operational costs...so that's another wrinkle.

 

[ArwenMarie]

People want escape. Fantasy. Fiction. WDW isn't competing with Colonial Williamsburg or Washington DC. They're competing with video games and giant TVs that keep getting better and better. Not to mention movies. Look at what they just did to Kraken at SW...stuck a VR headset on it. Look at Flights of Passage...same idea

And of course, the issue of merchandise. There are a whole bunch of attractions, some of which are my faves, which will be closed at some point due to the lack of selling merchandise. This is sad but true

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disagree with you here on the parks. There should be some balance between media, parks, consumer products and Studio's. Of these, Media Networks still generate more than 50% of the operating income (profit) for Disney. The other 3 areas need some serious love and attention.

You actually agree with me...

That's what Ima saying...the only reason they're off their Butt now is because 90% of the 50% of OI is estimated to be from espn (remember that every tv watched In America pays disney $7 per month for it through their provider and that is basically free money...)...but they've lost 15% of their subscribers already and the damn is just starting to leak...

...so...those other segments HAVE to receive investment because they are gonna HAVE to be exploited for more profits and fairly soon.