Epcot to get major transformations

[lockedoutlogic]

To me, which I relatively new to WDW, but it seems like a lot of EPCOT's issues stem from Disney refusing the pick up the tap for their park. So sponsor goes away, ride goes away and ticket prices go up. The first time I was at EPCOT was in 2011 and it seems like a lot has left just since then, especially in Innoventions, which I really enjoyed.

I could see a true revenue sharing partnership bringing in some corporate dollars, but Disney would never agree to that, they just want free money.

It also seems like with an update, Wonder of Life could still attract and interest people just fine today. People are far more into health and medicine than they were in the 1990s.

I'll move on from this...

But anyone wanting insight into the Iger era of Epcot appreciation should search "met life Epcot" and read some of the articles that talk about what happened. It says a lot.

 

[Lee Matthews]

I'm liking the idea of figment still having a presence but within an inside out attraction.

 

[merry_nbright]

We still haven't gotten anything close to a good reason for closing wonders of life...

Lots of "e" excuses...but nothing resembling what I believe to be the truth: the sponsor went away and they closed it to save a few minimum wage employees costs...

The 3 attractions in wonders - if dated - still represent a lot more interesting experiences than much of what remains.

RIGHT?! I'm so passionate about WoL and want nothing more than to see it returned to it's glory! The building is gorgeous and a waste as a "Festival Center." It's not like Disney isn't making bank on everything! An updated rendition would be a welcome addition to Future World, but I'm not optimistic about seeing it. I was too young to remember the original Figment ride ( I was only 3 months old in 1991 ), but it would still be nice to see it brought back to life instead of just an overlay thrown on it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm liking the idea of figment still having a presence but within an inside out attraction.

Yeah, but they need a new RIDE system. I don't think people realize what actually happened with that ride.

They ripped half the ride system out in 1998 for the dumbest reasons:
1. Decrease maintenance
2. "Increase capacity" by making a shorter ride
3. To make more queue line (much of it was never seen and remains pristine because they never needed a queue)

Just dumb. The story (believed to be true) of Eisner walking off it in disgust is both legend and likely true...but they ripped it out without a proper budget and it was a disaster. But they never FIXED it...I have to think at least part of that is the catastrophic decline of Kodak occurring at the same time. And sticking to the sponsorship model that didn't work anymore in the internet age was born.

 

[noblemaidenfair]

I know it's many years old and I realize that I'm in the minority on this, but one of my personal pet peeves is that Meet the Robinsons isn't anywhere in Epcot or Tomorrowland. It seems to me to be a pretty perfect opportunity to join Disney theming and innovation education. It wasn't a box office hit, I get that, but it's a fantastic, hilarious and sadly overlooked movie with many layers of great messages. And Tom Selleck.

 

[Lee Matthews]

Yeah, but they need a new RIDE system. I don't think people realize what actually happened with that ride.

They ripped half the ride system out in 1998 for the dumbest reasons:
1. Decrease maintenance
2. "Increase capacity" by making a shorter ride
3. To make more queue line (much of it was never seen and remains pristine because they never needed a queue)

Just dumb. The story (believed to be true) of Eisner walking off it in disgust is both legend and likely true...but they ripped it out without a proper budget and it was a disaster. But they never FIXED it...I have to think at least part of that is the catastrophic decline of Kodak occurring at the same time. And sticking to the sponsorship model that didn't work anymore in the internet age was born.

Well hopefully this will change that and like Hollywood Studios they plow another $1-$2 billion into Epcot and get it to where the park needs to be.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I forget where I read this but I remember this theory that part of SeaWorld's decline is because of the focus on science. Not all Blackfish.

Look at DAK...what did they add...rides related to a movie

Even DHS...taking out the movie-making element and putting in rides related to movies

I'm not saying museums/science/history aren't fun, but I don't go to theme parks in Orlando for them. There are plenty of other places in the country better for that

 

[jknezek]

Given what we know of costs for Pandora, SWL, and TSL, I'm thinking Futureworld alone needs well over 1 billion. While FEA cost somewhere in the 100-200 million for an overlay and line redo, there isn't much in FW that can suffice with that little work. That means you are looking close to 250-500 million per ride. If you think about Imagination, complete gut and rebuild for both ride and movie, that's got to be in the upper part of the range. UoE is a full re-construction judging from the permits, so that is mid to upper part of the range, Innoventions needs to be gutted and something put in there. What they choose to do could keep the spend down there, or drive it to the top of the range if they go with a real attraction. Personally I think it becomes a mall with some small attractions, so it probably goes to the bottom of the range. And then WoL if they bring it back, needs a full rebuild. The ride is long gone and after so long I can't imagine you can just tweak Cranium Command and retheme it to get it moving again. So those three pavilions alone, Imagination, UoE, and WoL are looking well over $1b. What they choose to do with Innoventions, updating the last scene of Spaceship Earth, redoing the graveyard and spine, updating Nemo which seems to be on the list, possible plussing in The Land, the Mission Space refurb which might have some plussing, all this stuff adds up with a few million to 100 million here and there and then it's another 500MM to 1B.

Then you talk about adding Rat, a few hundred million, a B/C in UK is going to be over 10MM, and 2 new pavilions? Plus a possible overlay for Mexico? Yeah. Close to a billion more in the back and that doesn't include International Gateway upgrades for the transport and something with the aging Illuminations.

So with all the rumors, hopes, and dreams, we are looking at 2-3B in my opinion. That's a lot of money. Think about it this way, EPCOT hosted 11.98 million guests in 2015. At $75 a pop (a few years back plus most people don't pay 1 day sticker price every day), that's less than $1B. So you are talking 2 to 3 years worth of ticket sales to pay for the things we are floating around.

 

[Phicinfan]

Cheap magic kingdom rip offs are "fun", huh?

Are you wearing your mouse ears at home as we speak? Are ya?

...I'm not "anti IP" in Epcot...I for one like the nemo overlay and the gran fiesta tour...

...but both of those were thematically acceptable...

Ratatouille in the French pavilion? Fine if tasteful...

Guardians of the galaxy? No. For one...it's guardians of the galaxy...which is as popcorn now as transformers...not what you build rides around.

And I'm sorry...if they do an inside out in imagination and leave the figment carcass...while they shuttered a whole pavilion that basically WAS inside out...that's gonna tick me the heck off...as it should.

I can agree with some of this. I do believe as you, that the IP has to fit what it is being applied to.

For example -
Rat in France is fantastic, and all plans heard to date is a simple clone of Rat from France, so it should mesh well.
Coco in Mexico - this one somewhat hurts, I am actually a huge fan of Grand Fiesta and the Three amigos....but Coco looks fantastic, and I believe it is a much better fit for the culture.
UK ride - by all accounts it is one of a few options, but all UK based(alice, Mary Poppins, and a few others) so I am optimistic here.

I agree with some that M&G's should fit the land - so not all that thrilled with jasmine where she is. Mulan in China fits at least.

I agree with most the key miss with Frozenstorm was the fact it wasn't the big scale it should have gotten(it was a huge success and should have gotten an "E" attraction, I also get it is set in a fictionary land, that is "based" on Norwegian looks. But that doesn't make it Norway. That being said, its seems like a fantastic ride update, but still lacks in that it was just an update.

But here is where we separate.

FW is to me a world of the future, who are we to say what can happen and what will. If they put GotG in UoE, and focus it on future aspects and new sources of energy...then it will fit. To date, we don't know what the "theme" for FW will be in EPCOT. We should get a hint I hope once M:S is completed, but even then until we get the whole picture who knows? But GotG and Marvel is not fly by night, it has draw and will continue to do so. Tie it in appropriately and it will be fine.

As for Imagination....my heart hurts. I have been on every iteration of Imagination and miss the first dearly. Miss Figment better used. To turn it into inside out(which by the way has been refuted a few times) would break my heart, especially as it is darn close to Cranium command. Just have to wait and see

 

[Capang]

I'll move on from this...

But anyone wanting insight into the Iger era of Epcot appreciation should search "met life Epcot" and read some of the articles that talk about what happened. It says a lot.

Took your advice and did some reading. I remember hearing about all of those attractions but we never visited during the years they operated. It's a shame they are closed. I'd rather see any of those over some of the IP they are using there.

 

[Hoodie]

RIGHT?! I'm so passionate about WoL and want nothing more than to see it returned to it's glory! The building is gorgeous and a waste as a "Festival Center." It's not like Disney isn't making bank on everything! An updated rendition would be a welcome addition to Future World, but I'm not optimistic about seeing it. I was too young to remember the original Figment ride ( I was only 3 months old in 1991 ), but it would still be nice to see it brought back to life instead of just an overlay thrown on it.

Wonders of Life was my favorite. Honestly, I could see an Inside Out overlay on that, if they really want to start sticking IP everywhere.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Wonders of Life was my favorite. Honestly, I could see an Inside Out overlay on that, if they really want to start sticking IP everywhere.

But they permenantly screwed that up...the elephant in the room.

They had two great pavilions with some of the best examples of EDUTAINMENT in the 90's...

Now they 0.5 of a pavilion that's an embarrassment...and a dvc lounge.

People wonder why I'm hard on Bob Iger? Look not to much farther than this...

And the idiot Parks and wdw management...which frankly has never recovered since the late Eisner purge.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I can agree with some of this. I do believe as you, that the IP has to fit what it is being applied to.

For example -
Rat in France is fantastic, and all plans heard to date is a simple clone of Rat from France, so it should mesh well.
Coco in Mexico - this one somewhat hurts, I am actually a huge fan of Grand Fiesta and the Three amigos....but Coco looks fantastic, and I believe it is a much better fit for the culture.
UK ride - by all accounts it is one of a few options, but all UK based(alice, Mary Poppins, and a few others) so I am optimistic here.

I agree with some that M&G's should fit the land - so not all that thrilled with jasmine where she is. Mulan in China fits at least.

I agree with most the key miss with Frozenstorm was the fact it wasn't the big scale it should have gotten(it was a huge success and should have gotten an "E" attraction, I also get it is set in a fictionary land, that is "based" on Norwegian looks. But that doesn't make it Norway. That being said, its seems like a fantastic ride update, but still lacks in that it was just an update.

But here is where we separate.

FW is to me a world of the future, who are we to say what can happen and what will. If they put GotG in UoE, and focus it on future aspects and new sources of energy...then it will fit. To date, we don't know what the "theme" for FW will be in EPCOT. We should get a hint I hope once M:S is completed, but even then until we get the whole picture who knows? But GotG and Marvel is not fly by night, it has draw and will continue to do so. Tie it in appropriately and it will be fine.

As for Imagination....my heart hurts. I have been on every iteration of Imagination and miss the first dearly. Miss Figment better used. To turn it into inside out(which by the way has been refuted a few times) would break my heart, especially as it is darn close to Cranium command. Just have to wait and see

You had me on everything but the section above...

Guardians of the galaxy features a talking tree and a raccoon armed more heavily than ted Nugent...

That is not an acceptable "future world" tie in. The prosecution rests.

And guardians really is what we've identified: the only thing they can use and it's a shell game. They want the cake all to themselves with marvel money. Looks low rent. I think even putting avengers on DCL looks kinda desperate. To be honest.

Not only that...but have you seen Vol. 2? That is not really a "family" property...it's geared to more the gaming/comic con with beards type sect. Which is great but doesn't scream "I want to take my kids on that!"

 

[dreiwhit]

But doesn't mean you have to load it with IP. I personally don't know how I feel about some of these rumors (really not about guardians in Epcot to be honest) but they can still make rides without an IP tie in. That's what frustrates me about upper management they've got the originality of a 2x4

Agreed. My family and I love Epcot. Its our favorite park because it is NOT like MK. I'm worried that it will end up being MK-lite in 10 years.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Agreed. My family and I love Epcot. Its our favorite park because it is NOT like MK. I'm worried that it will end up being MK-lite in 10 years.

I'll row the left oar...you row the right

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Given what we know of costs for Pandora, SWL, and TSL, I'm thinking Futureworld alone needs well over 1 billion. While FEA cost somewhere in the 100-200 million for an overlay and line redo, there isn't much in FW that can suffice with that little work. That means you are looking close to 250-500 million per ride. If you think about Imagination, complete gut and rebuild for both ride and movie, that's got to be in the upper part of the range. UoE is a full re-construction judging from the permits, so that is mid to upper part of the range, Innoventions needs to be gutted and something put in there. What they choose to do could keep the spend down there, or drive it to the top of the range if they go with a real attraction. Personally I think it becomes a mall with some small attractions, so it probably goes to the bottom of the range. And then WoL if they bring it back, needs a full rebuild. The ride is long gone and after so long I can't imagine you can just tweak Cranium Command and retheme it to get it moving again. So those three pavilions alone, Imagination, UoE, and WoL are looking well over $1b. What they choose to do with Innoventions, updating the last scene of Spaceship Earth, redoing the graveyard and spine, updating Nemo which seems to be on the list, possible plussing in The Land, the Mission Space refurb which might have some plussing, all this stuff adds up with a few million to 100 million here and there and then it's another 500MM to 1B.

Then you talk about adding Rat, a few hundred million, a B/C in UK is going to be over 10MM, and 2 new pavilions? Plus a possible overlay for Mexico? Yeah. Close to a billion more in the back and that doesn't include International Gateway upgrades for the transport and something with the aging Illuminations.

So with all the rumors, hopes, and dreams, we are looking at 2-3B in my opinion. That's a lot of money. Think about it this way, EPCOT hosted 11.98 million guests in 2015. At $75 a pop (a few years back plus most people don't pay 1 day sticker price every day), that's less than $1B. So you are talking 2 to 3 years worth of ticket sales to pay for the things we are floating around.

I was kicking around a guesstimate number when this was being talked out yesterday...and I got to around $2.5 on the low end.

I think the actual number is heavily influenced by two things that don't actually matter to Epcot as it now stands:

1. That market share number in Orlando...another 3% bleed and we will have way more bucks throw at the compound. Remember they don't have espn to rely on free profit for stocks anymore...they can't afford to lose theme park share. No way, Jose.
2. The universal property across I-4. That's a huge catalyst (potentially) for what disney does next.

Burn, baby, burn

 

[jknezek]

ESPN still throws off a huge amount of money. It just doesn't throw off what it used to and the future projections are not so good. Otherwise, I agree with you. They need to continue the current level of investment in those parks. Now that Avatar is complete, there should be little gap between announcing the next major improvement. Same with TSL and SWL. They simply can't just finish these lands and take a breath. So the clock is ticking to D23 when I'm hoping to see a major EPCOT announcement. It has to be on the scale of Pandora at least in terms of dollars, which if you get that the theming was half of Pandora, you should be able to get 3 attractions and a new country out of the same money at least. Then there will not be much time before the next phase needs to be announced, as it has to come not far on the heels of TSL opening.

Of all the parks, EPCOT seems to me to be most in need. But I'd love to see them get in a rhythm. There is no reason in every 10 year cycle that each park can't add the equivalent of a "land". EPCOT currently needs about 3 lands worth of help, MK can probably stand to pass on one cycle, though that's a bit iffy given the crowds, but AK and DHS should be right back in the mix.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

ESPN still throws off a huge amount of money. It just doesn't throw off what it used to and the future projections are not so good. Otherwise, I agree with you. They need to continue the current level of investment in those parks. Now that Avatar is complete, there should be little gap between announcing the next major improvement. Same with TSL and SWL. They simply can't just finish these lands and take a breath. So the clock is ticking to D23 when I'm hoping to see a major EPCOT announcement. It has to be on the scale of Pandora at least in terms of dollars, which if you get that the theming was half of Pandora, you should be able to get 3 attractions and a new country out of the same money at least. Then there will not be much time before the next phase needs to be announced, as it has to come not far on the heels of TSL opening.

Of all the parks, EPCOT seems to me to be most in need. But I'd love to see them get in a rhythm. There is no reason in every 10 year cycle that each park can't add the equivalent of a "land". EPCOT currently needs about 3 lands worth of help, MK can probably stand to pass on one cycle, though that's a bit iffy given the crowds, but AK and DHS should be right back in the mix.

Espn is in a cable death spiral...

Subscriber loss = loss of advertising revenue = carriers playing hardball due to loss of revenue = slashing of costs/talent at the network = hairbrain schemes by management to "save" it.

All those things are exaclty what's happening. Disney needs parks to be its primary revenue/profit generator moving forward.

Why was a rotting Epcot ok ten years ago and now seems "not to be"?

1+1=2

 

[jade1]

Why was a rotting Epcot ok ten years ago and now seems "not to be"?

Count in me in the "who cares" category.

Whatever the "reasons" (neglected, US, ESPN, Iger legacy) its all good news for me.

Same with D Springs, DVC, AK, DHS and MK (and US/IOA) changes-bring it on baby.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Wonders of Life was my favorite. Honestly, I could see an Inside Out overlay on that, if they really want to start sticking IP everywhere.

that is true - doing an Inside Out overlay to Cranium Command would be pretty straight forward (no idea if the mechanics are in working order though) and in some ways fits better than the Imagination pavilion as the Inside Out characters are emotions that exist in reality (in the movie) ... now, if they wanted to have Bing Bong make a cameo in an all new, updated, and amazing Figment ride, I would be supportive of that