Employees getting paid by DCL

[tstobb]

Originally posted by wee-haggis
No, actually it's because US citizens would have to pay income taxes while non US citizens do not.

lol...pay income taxes ....on what ..$60/month????

No, INCOME taxes are due on ALL income, this includes the tips they receive.

You make it sound like slavery
mmmm....thats a close call!

As I stated, nobody is forcing anybody to work on the cruise lines against their will and again, the way to change the system is to not support it. I will, however, continue to budget (yes, I've read some of the your other posts & I too am on a tight budget) for the inclusion of tips, bring extra to reward excellent service, and continue to enjoy myself. When I start to hear the staff complain of slavery-type tactics, I will file complaints with the proper authorities and at that point, stop cruising.

 

[mcnuss]

wee-haggis - I made the same points as you awhile ago. Obviously the employees are not forced by DCL to take these jobs, they are forced by their circumstances which DCL (and all the others) take full advantage of.

The other thing that is really irking me about this discussion is all the focus on "tax-free" as though these employees do not pay taxes on their income ine their home countries. Since you are Canadian, maybe you can shed some light on that. If you worked on a cruise ship in a foreign country, would Canada collect taxes from you? I have a pretty strong feeling it would. We also have absolutely no idea if these employees receive any kind of health or retirement benefits. Are they covered by workers comp? I doubt it since the ships are foreign-flagged. So what happens to them if they get injured on the job?

If these jobs were so desirable, US citizens would be falling all over themselves to get them. But they are not and there's a reason for that and it's that most Americans could not live on these wages. It's plain wrong for a US-based company to purposely pay people a wage that would be sub-standard here. I know it happens, I know why, but I don't have to like it. I will tip as I am requested to bc I know what it means if I do not.

 

[CarolAnnC]

I had an interesting thought here. U.S. citizens employed on board the cruise ships would be taxed differently because they are working outside of the U.S. The ships are Registered out of the country, and upon board and passing customs, you are out of the U.S.

I would think the U.S. citizens would be taxed as any other person working outside of the U.S. would be, such as an employee living and working in Europe for CNN, as an example.

 

[KMovies]

Do we really want the cruise industry to pay American wages?

$6.50 per hour, 16 hours a day, 7 days a week = $728 a week (still very low pay)

Let's say 2200 passengers and 950 crew members. Your share: $314.

You won't have to tip - so that means about $225 to $250 more per person

Will you pay it? maybe, some will.

Will less people cruise? yes

If less people cruise, what happens? less ships, less crew members, less opportunities for those that do want the jobs.

Is it fair? Not all jobs pay the same here in the States. Some people earn $80,000 - others earn $10,000. In most cases, those making $10,000 work harder.

Would we do it? Most Americans probably don't work as hard as people of other countries. That would be a factor.

OK - all cruise lines do it. Most people say that Disney is the cruise line to work for - that must mean they treat their people better, possibly pay a bit more. At least that says something.

And they come back.

 

[wee-haggis]

Originally posted by mcnuss
wee-haggis - I made the same points as you awhile ago. Obviously the employees are not forced by DCL to take these jobs, they are forced by their circumstances which DCL (and all the others) take full advantage of.

The other thing that is really irking me about this discussion is all the focus on "tax-free" as though these employees do not pay taxes on their income ine their home countries. Since you are Canadian, maybe you can shed some light on that. If you worked on a cruise ship in a foreign country, would Canada collect taxes from you? I have a pretty strong feeling it would. We also have absolutely no idea if these employees receive any kind of health or retirement benefits. Are they covered by workers comp? I doubt it since the ships are foreign-flagged. So what happens to them if they get injured on the job?

If these jobs were so desirable, US citizens would be falling all over themselves to get them. But they are not and there's a reason for that and it's that most Americans could not live on these wages. It's plain wrong for a US-based company to purposely pay people a wage that would be sub-standard here. I know it happens, I know why, but I don't have to like it. I will tip as I am requested to bc I know what it means if I do not.

You are absolutely correct with regards to your statement on paying taxes to your home country.
(Canada,UK,Phillipines...almost all countries).
Whether they actually claim all their taxes truthfully is doubtful since there really is no sure fire method of tracking "cash-under-the-table tips".
Your last paragraph is very commendable since you realize that your tipping is required to at least give them close to a living wage.
As for health benefits,workmans comp or retirement benefits....non existant to these folk I'm afraid.
The suggestion of "they have worked there for 3 or 4 years..so it must be good '
and
"All the cruise companies do it...so why not DSL"
Is just plain wrong and I just wish some of the fine outspoken spokespersons in the US such as Ralph Nader or Michael Moore would step up and bring this kind of injustice to the attention of the masses.

 

[DISNEYGATOR]

I agree, no one forces crew members to work on DCL, and it might seem like a sacrifice to a lot of people, and hard work, but to others it is a decent living, one that allows you to meet people from all over the world, travel, and earn a lot of cash for your family. And while the hours are long, crew members do get long breaks to spend with family members. Is it the living a lot of us would choose? Probably not... but it is probably a much better living the most of the people working your local McDonalds have, or the gas station you fill up at every week, or the supermarket you breeze in and out of after a long day of work. Service industry is nortorious for lower wages, but at the same time, in order to make entertainment affordable to most, they have to keep labor costs low, since operational costs are so high. It's the nature of the business. But I have confidence DCL treats it's crew members well above the industry standard. For a lot of the crew who are young, they are there for the experience. For others it's a way to provide for your family when you come from a nation where you would be lucky to earn the equivilent of $200 US dollars a year. Ever thought of what your friendly CM at WDW makes? A lot of them are working 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week too.

Another reason for tipping rather then wages is to encourage great service. If it is your only means of income, you are going to constantly exceed expectations, because otherwise you will earn less. But if you are earning a wage, and it is for the most part fixed, what becomes your motivation at that point?

I think the majority of DCL crew members are happy with what they do, and get enjoyment out of it. They earn a decent living, and if you break it down 6 months non stop, 80 hours a week, isn't too much more than the amount of hours a person working a 40 hour work week for the entire year.

 

[DISNEYGATOR]

also, keep in mind... the waiter/waitress at your favorite restaurant lives on tips too.. so does the bell hop at the hotel in your home town, the housekeepers at every resort... majority of people in these fields do not earn a real wage either. And they all work in the U.S.

And anyway, is $6.50 an hour a real wage? Who can live off that? A lot of Americans are being forced to already.. that is 13,500k a year.. BEFORE taxes. It's not the cruise industry.. but the service industry as a whole.

 

[tstobb]

Originally posted by CarolAnnK
I had an interesting thought here. U.S. citizens employed on board the cruise ships would be taxed differently because they are working outside of the U.S. The ships are Registered out of the country, and upon board and passing customs, you are out of the U.S.

I would think the U.S. citizens would be taxed as any other person working outside of the U.S. would be, such as an employee living and working in Europe for CNN, as an example.

From the IRS website:

"6) I am a U.S. citizen and have no taxable income from the United States, but I have substantial income from a foreign source. Am I required to file a U.S. income tax return?

Yes. All U.S. citizens and resident aliens, depending on the amount of the foreign source income, are subject to U.S. tax on their worldwide income. If you paid taxes to a foreign government on income from sources outside the United States, you may receive a foreign tax credit against your U.S. income tax liability for the foreign taxes paid. Form 1116 is used to figure the allowable credit."

To qualify for the exclusion, you must have a residence outside of the US that you reside in for at least 330 days of the calendar year so I'm not sure if they would meet the qualifications.

 

[4crusinransiers]

As posted above by DISNEYGATOR Wow so true! Being in the Industry myself I HEAR-YA! Such is the reason we tipped upbove the recommended amount on our 8/31 cruise. We tipped the suggested amount to head server,(saw him twice) but everyone else we tipped over! Also when we dine out here in our great state of Washington. If service is not acceptable I STILL TIP THE MINIUMUM 8% we as servers are TAXED 8% of our sales if we receive it or not.
Good service deserves 20 to 25%
Here in Washington, if you stiff us.....we just paid to wait on you.
Or I should say....we just made minimum wage to and were taxed on 8% of the total of your ticket to serve you.
I will agree, nobody forces these people on DCL to work at these rates, without seeing thier familys for 6 months at a time.
Sometimes, in some of these countrys....there are not alot of options.

 

[mrsltg]

For anyone who doesn't like the system, a few thoughts...

1. Don't Cruise. If you really are a "consciencious objector" don't feed the beast. Obviously your problem with the system is not great enough to stop you from taking advantage of it.

2. Economics. I am fortunate. I was born American to a middle-class family. My parents have a strong work ethic, and both broke their backs (mom's a trauma nurse, dad's a city bus driver) to provide a better life for their children. I was taught to strive for excellence, and that college was expected of me. I work my a** off at my job and take pride in my work. I am paid well for my talents. GOD BLESS THE USA!
Other people are not as fortunate. They live in places that don't hold as much promise. Then again, the houses there don't cost on average $3-400k. Their cars don't come in around $20k. Their daycare bills aren't $800/mo. In short, their cost of living is substantially less than mine. They are of no less value in human terms, but they are of less value in market terms. This is a good thing. It makes it so that I, and we, ALL OF US ON THIS BOARD, can afford to blow $3k and more on a week of vacation. Whether you do it once a year, or once every five, you're still doing it. We live in a capitalist society. It works for me. I understand that in order for my money to have value, someone has to make more than me, and someone has to make less than me. America is a rich nation (and let's not forget Canada and the UK). People want to come here. They want to work. They want to earn. I see nothing wrong with that.

3. Tips! Don't think your server is making enough? Tip them double or triple! No one says that you can't. I'm sure that they'd appreciate the money.

Have fun on your next cruise, and try to remember, these people are here by choice!

Erin

 

[AnnMorin]

Hmmm, my experience seems to be a lot different. On our past two cruises BOTH times our server has told us how much he loved working for disney and to please make sure that we give him an excellent on his survey so his contract could be renewed. In fact last time Tigger said that he had been on six times and this was a great life for him, that he hopes his contract is renewed forever. He said he aspired to become head server some day. My impression was that he loved his job and did not feel like a slave at all.. of course with the way we tipped, I would love my job too

 

[mcnuss]

My last post on this subject as I think it's all been said. We can all agree to disagree, while we can all recognize that the situation exists and short of not cruising or eating out or going to hotels, we are stuck with this system.

One point from wee-haggis of note: Whether they actually claim all their taxes truthfully is doubtful since there really is no sure fire method of tracking "cash-under-the-table tips".

Since many of us will charge our tips, there is quite an effective tracking device. I have come to the point now where I debate leaving tips in cash - and hence helping someone avoid taxation which as a lawyer gives me pause - or charging.

 

[Susan in Maine]

OK folks, this is the law in the US regarding those who hold jobs that are traditionally considered 'tipped employees'

First, all employees are guaranteed minimum wage, whether tipped or not. Standard tipped wage is usually half of minimum wage, but can vary from state to state. However, if the employee does not earn enough in tips to bring total compensation up to the level of minimum wage, the employer must increase wages to that level. Therefore, no tipped employee in the US can earn less than minimum wage. This is true whether they work two hours a week or 40.

As to the wages the employees on cruise ships earn: You cannot judge their compensation by US standards. We are an extraordinarily wealthy country, and our work force enjoys high wages and good benefits.

For many, if not most, of the tipped employees on these ships, their tip wages put them in the middle or upper middle class in their home countries. They can afford to send their children to private schools, own property, and have many other opportunities their fellow countrymen don't have.

They are willing to sacrifice time away from their families to bring a better life, a better standard of living. It is THEIR choice. compared to many of the third world countries they come from, their lives aboard ship are luxurious by comparison. They are well fed, have basic medical care, jobs that while difficult are not onerous.

If cruise lines had to pay wages based on US standards, and follow all US labor law, cruising would become so prohibitively expensive that most of us could not afford to do it. One of the reasons Delta Steam Boat Company became bankrupt is because they were a US company, and had to abide by US labor law. That made their cruises comparatively much more expensive than the 'blue water' boats. And even their wages were not that great - I had a friend who did HR on one of their boats.

If cruising became so expensive most of us couldn't do it, the jobs would disappear, and the hard working, dedicated staff aboard would not have the opportunity to raise their standard of living.

So - take a cruise, enjoy the trip and tip generously.

 

[Mojomanny]

OK....time for some reality checks here.

First these are people working outside the USA on a Non-US ship. JUst because they are Disney does not mean they should be compensated above their industry norm. How many of us leave a tip in the hotel room for the people who clean it? (I do)

Second, I have had foreign exhcange students live with us. I had 2 students from the Czech Republic. They were earning $7 and hour and would work every minute they could. His paycheck for his first week he thought was for a month, and was ecstatic. He literally did back flips when I explained he would make 4x that a month. He was earning far more than a Doctor would in the CR.

Third, as a consuming nation, we exploit the other nations. When we needed things cheap, we went to Japan. When their standard of living improved we moved on to Taiwan, then South Korea and now China. We will look for the place we can get the product for the cheapest price. Does anyone think of this when they buy something at Walmart? What is the standard of living of the person who made the ball for your son or the CD player you bought.

And those employees do not have the safeguards our workers do. They weld with improper safety equipment, burning thier retinas. When they can no longer work they are cast aside and replaced.

I am not stating this is right or fair of us. It is as it is.

Lets put the taxes and all the other issues aside. Pure and simple, the people working on the cruise are making a substantially better wage for themselves than if they were in their natural country. They are not working in America and do not have the protection Americans have. They are far from a servitude situation.

Perhaps we should think about the mariners on oil tankers and freighters who are in far less luxurious settings, eating less desirable food and making far less.

BTW, from my cruise, my Server and Asst took a number of pictures of the crews area. It is nice with dorm size cabins, a bar and recreation room, a weight room, their own pool and laundry. Very much like college. And they do party during their off hours.

While it may not be fair to American standards, they are not working in America and the standard they are enjoying great exceeds what they otherwise might be.

Nobody asked, just my opinion