Education budget cuts

[Kathi OD]

7:30 - 3 is 7:30 hours. That's 30 minutes shy of a normal work day for a professional. That also doesn't count any teachers that stay after 3PM to do their grading, work an after school activity, or attend a meeting.

I am in a salaried position that requires a degree, so I'd say it's the same category as an educator. I get 25 days of PTO plus 8 holidays. so I work about 45 more days than the average teacher in my area (52*5 - 33 = 227, 184 - 2 personal days = 182). I also get paid 1.5 times what an average teacher does in my area with the same number of years experience in the same job (if you count per diem, since I work more days, it's still 1.24 times an average teacher). And I have a lower degree (BA vs MA). And I haven't gotten a raise in 2.5 years (if I did, I'd be making roughly 1.63 times).

In my position, I don't have to listen to whiny parents who deny their kid does anything wrong, deal with administrators who always take the side of the parents, or get my pay criticized daily by the public while being told I am lazy. So not only do I get paid more, I have less stress.

Somehow, I don't think that's fair.

I can't say thank you enough!

 

[Rumpus]

7:30 - 3 is 7:30 hours. That's 30 minutes shy of a normal work day for a professional. That also doesn't count any teachers that stay after 3PM to do their grading, work an after school activity, or attend a meeting.

I am in a salaried position that requires a degree, so I'd say it's the same category as an educator. I get 25 days of PTO plus 8 holidays. so I work about 45 more days than the average teacher in my area (52*5 - 33 = 227, 184 - 2 personal days = 182). I also get paid 1.5 times what an average teacher does in my area with the same number of years experience in the same job (if you count per diem, since I work more days, it's still 1.24 times an average teacher). And I have a lower degree (BA vs MA). And I haven't gotten a raise in 2.5 years (if I did, I'd be making roughly 1.63 times).

In my position, I don't have to listen to whiny parents who deny their kid does anything wrong, deal with administrators who always take the side of the parents, or get my pay criticized daily by the public while being told I am lazy. So not only do I get paid more, I have less stress.

Somehow, I don't think that's fair.

It wouldn't be fair if teachers or you didn't have a choice in your career path, but you did and do have a choice. In our state, school nurses are paid much less than teachers yet most of them have a BS. They are not a part of the union, they do not get the same benefits, they have to be there before school and after school. Many of them work without an aide so planning a bathroom break has to be taken into consideration. Many of the students in school today with emotional and medical problems have been mainstreamed. It isn't unusual for a school nurse to have to do a gastric feeding, empty catheters and attend to other procedures. They must also administer medications during the day, call the parents to get their sick children, attend to emergencies and maintain immunization records, as well as track down errant parents for the same. They make much less than hospital based nurses but then they have every weekend off, they are off during the summer, snow days and holidays. They have a choice. Personally, I think that their pay and benefits should be on par with teachers but that is unlikely to ever happen. With regard to so called teacher bashing? I have seen my share of school nurse bashing. (and no, I am not a school nurse).

 

[perdidochas]

It is quite true and in many states they do not contribute to their retirement; the taxpayer does.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0547.htm

Hmm, in 14 out of 50 states (less than 1/3) the teachers don't pay SS, and somehow you imply that's the situation for most teachers.

Also, honestly, what's the difference between having your retirement taken out of your pay and just being paid less and having the state pay your retirement?

 

[Kathi OD]

I am fairly new here but it amazes me when a discussion turns personal as this one has. I don't see the point of asking a poster if she is on the net from work, if she is allowed to and implying that she is somehow cheating. I would assume that there is always someone on line who happens to be at work at some point. If their employer doesn't care, why should we? And why would it even come up in this discussion?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Planet Money had this interesting show a few weeks ago about an economist who theorized that by making the bottom 5 - 8% of performing teachers perform better (either through training or firing and hiring better teachers, or what have you), it could ad $10 trillion to the US national economy yearly. This is because better education leads to higher pay.

I don't know if his numbers include the fact that we still need to have lower paying jobs (fast food employees, sanitation workers, etc.). But it is an interesting theory.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011...sday-podcast-how-much-is-a-good-teacher-worth

 

[golfgal]

Umm, not once did I say I work 24/7 and am never allowed a moment of free time. Trust me they squeeze every billable hour they can out of me, but I as stated previously, I don't punch a clock. I work when I need to work.

agree!


Teachers are not required to have an MA. If teachers don't think the pay is fair in a free market society they are welcome to choose another profession that would pay more. Teaching is not indentured servitude.

Actually, that is not true. In many, many, many districts they require teachers to be working toward a masters and usually have a time limit as to when they have to have that completed (6 years is very common). Also, there are plenty of districts that won't hire an experienced teacher without a Masters.

 

[Kathi OD]

It wouldn't be fair if teachers or you didn't have a choice in your career path, but you did and do have a choice. In our state, school nurses are paid much less than teachers yet most of them have a BS. They are not a part of the union, they do not get the same benefits, they have to be there before school and after school. Many of them work without an aide so planning a bathroom break has to be taken into consideration. Many of the students in school today with emotional and medical problems have been mainstreamed. It isn't unusual for a school nurse to have to do a gastric feeding, empty catheters and attend to other procedures. They must also administer medications during the day, call the parents to get their sick children, attend to emergencies and maintain immunization records, as well as track down errant parents for the same. They make much less than hospital based nurses but then they have every weekend off, they are off during the summer, snow days and holidays. They have a choice. Personally, I think that their pay and benefits should be on par with teachers but that is unlikely to ever happen. With regard to so called teacher bashing? I have seen my share of school nurse bashing. (and no, I am not a school nurse).

As per the bolded, I would agree. Here, school nurses are paid on par with the teachers. They are part of our union.

I've never encountered an instance of school nurse bashing however, I am sure it happens. Almost every occupation takes bashing from some other group, for a variety of reasons.

FWIW, I don't feel like anyone is "bashing" teachers on this thread. Personally, I see it more as expressing frustration.

We all have choices in our career goals and directions and often think that there is someone, somewhere who has a better deal than we have. I think it's a good idea to remember that anyone of us could have also made that choice.

 

[DawnM]

Because these discussions become very personal and attacks and rude comments fly!

I did get a good salary and great benefits where I came from, but NOT in NC. It amazes me the differences across the board when it comes to the exact same profession in the same country! It does show me that NC does not value teachers. Unions aren't allowed, so comments like, "Well, just organize a union then" are NOT helpful.

Now, I will admit that I knew this coming to NC but the plan was for me to stay home at the time anyway and honestly, I didn't plan to stay here!

Thankfully, DH does work in the private sector and makes a lot more than I could make, but he does work longer hours. I am the first one to admit that. He also doesn't come home drained from his work though. He is the first one to admit that!

Teaching/working the schools is a great job to work around your children's schedule, but if you can't make enough to support a family, it is tough.

Dawn

I am fairly new here but it amazes me when a discussion turns personal as this one has. I don't see the point of asking a poster if she is on the net from work, if she is allowed to and implying that she is somehow cheating. I would assume that there is always someone on line who happens to be at work at some point. If their employer doesn't care, why should we? And why would it even come up in this discussion?

 

[perdidochas]

I am not whining, I am compensated for those hours. Teachers don't work near the hours of a full time employee. I know that they *think* they do, but they don't. What other profession works only 9 month a year and gets off at 3pm and considers it full time?

I've been a teacher and I've been a "full time" employee. First, teachers are mostly contracted to work 190 days a year (at least the systems my wife and I have worked in the Southeast) (no, they don't have paid holidays). That is 38 weeks a year. A conventional job employee gets 10 vacation days (2 weeks) and 10 federal holidays (2 weeks). That's a 48 week year.

As a non teaching employee, I work 40 hr weeks and never bring work from home. When I taught, I brought home work every night, and routinely worked at least an hour each morning at home. In addition, on crunch time (report cards), I would usually work the weekend to catch up on grading. That's not counting the PTA nights, school dances, etc. that most teachers are expected to attend. Teaching is at least a full time during the 38 weeks they are working. They are paid appropriately for working a 4/5 time job (teacher's starting salary is about 4/5 of a typical person with similar degree). I'm not suggesting that teachers should be paid much more. I am suggesting that we shouldn't cut their pay, though, at least if we want new talented people to teach.

 

[Kathi OD]

Teachers are not required to have an MA. If teachers don't think the pay is fair in a free market society they are welcome to choose another profession that would pay more. Teaching is not indentured servitude.

In order to be permanently certified in NY state, a teacher must possess a Master's degree. You may teach on a provisional certificate for 5 years.

No one has implied that teaching is indentured servitude however, there are more than just a few people who need to spend a few days in the shoes of a teacher before making judgments about whether or not their salary is fair.

As I've said before, the door swings both ways. Those who think that teachers have it so easy, are welcome to choose education as their profession.

 

[msjprincess]

Umm, not once did I say I work 24/7 and am never allowed a moment of free time. Trust me they squeeze every billable hour they can out of me, but I as stated previously, I don't punch a clock. I work when I need to work.

agree!


Teachers are not required to have an MA. If teachers don't think the pay is fair in a free market society they are welcome to choose another profession that would pay more. Teaching is not indentured servitude.

They are in NY

 

[golfgal]

Ok, I have an idea--how about we institute a nationwide work "slowdown" for teachers. Have all the teachers do what people really think their jobs entail and what they do all day:

Teacher-you get to walk in the door to your classroom as the bell rings in the morning, leave the classroom when the bell rings in the afternoon. Prep period-that is the only time you have to work on your lesson plans, grade papers, etc. So no worries about bringing anything home with you. Have an IEP meeting scheduled after school, nope, can't do-has to be during that prep period or nothing. The SPED teacher doesn't have the same prep period-oh, too bad, someone isn't going to make the meeting.

You get emails or phone calls from parents, well you can only return those during your prep time so if you don't get to them all, oh well. Band concerts, school programs are all now during the day, parents can't take time off work-too bad, I guess they miss their child's solo in the band concert. Need to schedule a meeting with your child's teacher, well her prep time is from 9;45-10:15-you need to take the morning off of work to fit that in, no problem.

A student needs help, well, work that into your prep time too because you aren't there before or after school any more. Child has a test in another class then, oh well, the child just has to wait then.

Oh, and that prep time, people think you just hang out on facebook so I guess you get to do that then too.

How about we try this for just 2 weeks-it won't be too damaging to the kids--heck, since everyone thinks you do this all the time, lets just do this for the rest of the school year because it isn't going to hurt the kids any according to the general public.

Let's then count the number of teacher complaint/school complaints threads here

 

[Rumpus]

Likewise, those who chose to work in the private sector, could have opted to become public school teachers and get paid lavish salaries with awesome benefits.

FWIW, I don't get paid a pauper's salary. You might be surprised to learn I believe I make a good salary, along with having very good benefits, as my level of education and responsibilities should provide. It wasn't always this way. My first teaching position (back in the days of the dinosaurs) paid very little, nothing near what my level of education and job responsibilities should have commanded. While the benefits were good, they were not as good as many in the private sector.

Unfortunately, the money needed to pay all of us in the public sector must come from taxpayers. But honestly, those taxpayers (in general, maybe not you personally) are willing to pay obscene amounts of money on entertainment, designer clothing, outlandish vacations, McMansion-type houses, restaurant meals several nights a week, without giving a second thought to it, yet complain when it comes to spending on education and public safety. Seriously, which is more important? Season tickets to a professional football team's games, living in a 4,000 sq. ft (or larger house), carrying a Dolce & Gabbana bag, or the education of your child? Personally, I see a very large segment of my fellow citizens having their priorities in the wrong place.

While people may or may not have the priorities in the wrong place, how much of a tax burden should they be required to bear. Spending money, lavishly and foolishly provides jobs and creates capital. The right to "waste" money is one of the rights of a free market society. Consider the financial impact on those who depend upon diners in restaurants, guests in hotels, popcorn vendors at football games when there is less disposable income. Parents of children who are home schooled, attend private or religious school also pay taxes...and tuition. When it comes to budget cuts at the local, state or federal level, everyone has their sacred cows. In some communities its the schools. In others its the senior center. Other towns want a new library. I have no children in public school but personally, safety and education come first. Senior centers are for good financial times or wealthy benefactors. However what was once a spending floor has to become a ceiling during times of deficits.

 

[Kathi OD]

Ok, I have an idea--how about we institute a nationwide work "slowdown" for teachers. Have all the teachers do what people really think their jobs entail and what they do all day:

Teacher-you get to walk in the door to your classroom as the bell rings in the morning, leave the classroom when the bell rings in the afternoon. Prep period-that is the only time you have to work on your lesson plans, grade papers, etc. So no worries about bringing anything home with you. Have an IEP meeting scheduled after school, nope, can't do-has to be during that prep period or nothing. The SPED teacher doesn't have the same prep period-oh, too bad, someone isn't going to make the meeting.

You get emails or phone calls from parents, well you can only return those during your prep time so if you don't get to them all, oh well. Band concerts, school programs are all now during the day, parents can't take time off work-too bad, I guess they miss their child's solo in the band concert. Need to schedule a meeting with your child's teacher, well her prep time is from 9;45-10:15-you need to take the morning off of work to fit that in, no problem.

A student needs help, well, work that into your prep time too because you aren't there before or after school any more. Child has a test in another class then, oh well, the child just has to wait then.

Oh, and that prep time, people think you just hang out on facebook so I guess you get to do that then too.

How about we try this for just 2 weeks-it won't be too damaging to the kids--heck, since everyone thinks you do this all the time, lets just do this for the rest of the school year because it isn't going to hurt the kids any according to the general public.

Let's then count the number of teacher complaint/school complaints threads here

WOW! Golfgal, I never realized you were a "live dangerously" kinda gal!

 

[perdidochas]

Ok, I have an idea--how about we institute a nationwide work "slowdown" for teachers. Have all the teachers do what people really think their jobs entail and what they do all day:

Teacher-you get to walk in the door to your classroom as the bell rings in the morning, leave the classroom when the bell rings in the afternoon. Prep period-that is the only time you have to work on your lesson plans, grade papers, etc. So no worries about bringing anything home with you. Have an IEP meeting scheduled after school, nope, can't do-has to be during that prep period or nothing. The SPED teacher doesn't have the same prep period-oh, too bad, someone isn't going to make the meeting.

You get emails or phone calls from parents, well you can only return those during your prep time so if you don't get to them all, oh well. Band concerts, school programs are all now during the day, parents can't take time off work-too bad, I guess they miss their child's solo in the band concert. Need to schedule a meeting with your child's teacher, well her prep time is from 9;45-10:15-you need to take the morning off of work to fit that in, no problem.

A student needs help, well, work that into your prep time too because you aren't there before or after school any more. Child has a test in another class then, oh well, the child just has to wait then.

Oh, and that prep time, people think you just hang out on facebook so I guess you get to do that then too.

How about we try this for just 2 weeks-it won't be too damaging to the kids--heck, since everyone thinks you do this all the time, lets just do this for the rest of the school year because it isn't going to hurt the kids any according to the general public.

Let's then count the number of teacher complaint/school complaints threads here

 

[Rumpus]

Ok, I have an idea--how about we institute a nationwide work "slowdown" for teachers. Have all the teachers do what people really think their jobs entail and what they do all day:

Teacher-you get to walk in the door to your classroom as the bell rings in the morning, leave the classroom when the bell rings in the afternoon. Prep period-that is the only time you have to work on your lesson plans, grade papers, etc. So no worries about bringing anything home with you. Have an IEP meeting scheduled after school, nope, can't do-has to be during that prep period or nothing. The SPED teacher doesn't have the same prep period-oh, too bad, someone isn't going to make the meeting.

You get emails or phone calls from parents, well you can only return those during your prep time so if you don't get to them all, oh well. Band concerts, school programs are all now during the day, parents can't take time off work-too bad, I guess they miss their child's solo in the band concert. Need to schedule a meeting with your child's teacher, well her prep time is from 9;45-10:15-you need to take the morning off of work to fit that in, no problem.

A student needs help, well, work that into your prep time too because you aren't there before or after school any more. Child has a test in another class then, oh well, the child just has to wait then.

Oh, and that prep time, people think you just hang out on facebook so I guess you get to do that then too.

How about we try this for just 2 weeks-it won't be too damaging to the kids--heck, since everyone thinks you do this all the time, lets just do this for the rest of the school year because it isn't going to hurt the kids any according to the general public.

Let's then count the number of teacher complaint/school complaints threads here

The difference between a professional worker and a blue collared worker who punches a time clock is a different standard of behavior and a higher set of responsibilities. If one wants to be considered professional, they have to behave in a professional manner. Many of those things that you suggested teachers neglect as a 'work slowdown' are written into many school contracts, right down to when they must arrive in their class rooms, to study hall coverage, parent conferences and bus duty days per year. Nurses cannot walk out of the hospital if their work isn't done simply because their shifts are over. If they are there during a snow storm, they must remain for additional shifts to cover. Physicians return patient phone calls after hours. Lawyers must be available to serve their clients, and the list goes on. I don't see anyone assuming that teachers do "nothing all day" or shirk their responsibilities. What I see is a concern about how endless salary demands, benefits and pensions get funded and when and how it can be paid for.

 

[golfgal]

The difference between a professional worker and a blue collared worker who punches a time clock is a different standard of behavior and a higher set of responsibilities. If one wants to be considered professional, they have to behave in a professional manner. Many of those things that you suggested teachers neglect as a 'work slowdown' are written into many school contracts, right down to when they must arrive in their class rooms, to study hall coverage, parent conferences and bus duty days per year. Nurses cannot walk out of the hospital if their work isn't done simply because their shifts are over. If they are there during a snow storm, they must remain for additional shifts to cover. Physicians return patient phone calls after hours. Lawyers must be available to serve their clients, and the list goes on. I don't see anyone assuming that teachers do "nothing all day" or shirk their responsibilities. What I see is a concern about how endless salary demands, benefits and pensions get funded and when and how it can be paid for.

Yet you think that teachers should get paid minimum wage but be held to the same professional standards as doctors. This entire thread is about how teachers are NOT paid a professional wage AND how people like you want to cut their benefits-which have long been used to help compensate teachers for such a low pay scale.

Also, nurses most certainly do leave after their shift. Most hospitals do not allow nurses to work overtime. Drs RARELY call patients after hours.

Teachers make "endless salary demands" because people like you think that they should work for free yet be held to this "professional standard". If teachers were paid a comparable salary to the private sector for the same job responsibility and educational requirements you probably wouldn't hear these "endless" demands.

 

[tar heel]

Teachers in North Carolina and lots of other places have a lot to complain about, but the retirement program in North Carolina isn't one of them IMO. Torins mom said it might soon be her only benefit. Well, it's a HUGE one. While teachers do contribute 6%, the state pitches in 8.75. Teachers typically retire with roughly 80% of the take-home pay they received their last year working. Retirees also continue to get health insurance. Contrast that with my husband's company where the company will match 50% of the employees contributions, up to 3% and retirees have to pay 100% of their health insurance (they can remain part of the group, though). That 3%, alas, is almost worthless too as it was in company stock. My small organization does the 50% up to 3%, but we have no provisions at all for retirees to get insurance.

As my teacher friends have started to retire, I've seen just how big this benefit is. It's not just that their retirement pay is bigger, but also that they typically work in the same state for 30 years and it all counts. Many of those of us in the private sector had to move around as we climbed the ladder so retirement at 52 with the company pension being a primary motivater isn't possible.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

The difference between a professional worker and a blue collared worker who punches a time clock is a different standard of behavior and a higher set of responsibilities. If one wants to be considered professional, they have to behave in a professional manner. Many of those things that you suggested teachers neglect as a 'work slowdown' are written into many school contracts, right down to when they must arrive in their class rooms, to study hall coverage, parent conferences and bus duty days per year. Nurses cannot walk out of the hospital if their work isn't done simply because their shifts are over. If they are there during a snow storm, they must remain for additional shifts to cover. Physicians return patient phone calls after hours. Lawyers must be available to serve their clients, and the list goes on. I don't see anyone assuming that teachers do "nothing all day" or shirk their responsibilities. What I see is a concern about how endless salary demands, benefits and pensions get funded and when and how it can be paid for.

This is the issue we are facing in our immediate area in Pennsylvania. Over the past few years pretty much every District has faced a contract issue, some resulting in some pretty nasty strikes.

We live in an area where the Districts are already paying salaries anywhere from $40,000 (for a starting teacher) to $100,000+ for teachers with 15 years of experience and a Master's degree. Each time contract renewal comes up, all of these salaries continue to rise, and people are just starting to ask the question, "Where does it end?" Our area also has an abundance of retirees still able to live in their own homes. For 2 years now they have received a 0% Cost of living increase from their Social Security, and, yet they are expected to pay an ever-increasing amount of taxes into the School District?

It's not a battle of who is working harder, or who deserves what, it is about where will it end? Will the NEA, PSEA, and local chapters stop when teachers are making 150,000 in the District, 200,000? Believe it, or not, but public funds are finite, and directly related to economic conditions worldwide.

The simple truth is that the whole system is broken. Is it the State Government's fault? Is it the fault of the Unions? Finding out who to blame isn't the question, it's how it's going to be fixed.

Throwing tons of money at the system isn't going to help, either. Districts who are paying their teachers more than other Districts are still facing the same problems as those other Districts.

I'm not sure what kind of solutions are out there, but if one isn't found soon, the strikes are going to get nastier, and more communities are going to be torn apart by the current system.

 

[Kathi OD]

While people may or may not have the priorities in the wrong place, how much of a tax burden should they be required to bear. Spending money, lavishly and foolishly provides jobs and creates capital. The right to "waste" money is one of the rights of a free market society. Consider the financial impact on those who depend upon diners in restaurants, guests in hotels, popcorn vendors at football games when there is less disposable income. Parents of children who are home schooled, attend private or religious school also pay taxes...and tuition. When it comes to budget cuts at the local, state or federal level, everyone has their sacred cows. In some communities its the schools. In others its the senior center. Other towns want a new library. I have no children in public school but personally, safety and education come first. Senior centers are for good financial times or wealthy benefactors. However what was once a spending floor has to become a ceiling during times of deficits.

Every opinion is shaped by the bearer's experiences. I don't think sacrifices need to be exclusive; that it's either personal or governmental. People should be making sacrifices across the board; giving up some personal extras in order to lessen the burden on the reductions that need to be made on the tax side (and there do need to be reductions in budgets on the public side).

Over the past couple of years I just haven't seen that. Movie theaters are still crowded as ever. Local restaurants still have long lines, store parking lots are packed, and depending on the city, local professional sports teams season ticket sales are so strong that there are none available, even if you wanted to purchase them; with most of these at higher prices than previous years. Yet, what are taxpayers (in general) furious about? Not the increase in prices of their discretionary spending, but the increase in taxes that provide them with necessary public services.

Parents who homeschool their children or opt to send them to private schools, are making a choice, a choice they have every right to make. However, in making that choice, they also choose to not take advantage of the free education their tax dollars provide. That decision should not exempt them from paying the tax dollars that support the public school option.

At the present time, I also have no school age children. However, I firmly believe in the importance of a community providing for the education of its children. I understand that while I don't personally use the service, its existence in my community helps to create a literate society.