Ebayers - Beware of Paypal

[dreams91]

I guess I still don't understand why paypal took the money back anyway...

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

Are you permitted to re-sell the tickets? The question isn't how long before the game you shipped the tickets. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE AFTER THE AUCTION FOR YOU TO SHIP the tickets? It's not the buyers fault you decided to aution off your tickets before you received them. Aren't you required to ship within 30 days?

Did you auction your tickets when your payment was due?

I'd estimate that over 90% of tickets sold on eBay are sold before they are actually in the hands of the buyer. The bottom line is everyone who purchased tickets got them and most got them months in advance. A whole lot of people ended up getting free tickets. And PayPal screwed me out of over $2,000.

 

[DiznEeyore]

Ugh. Where was this thread when I posted my concerns about this very thing a few days ago? I'm seeing that several people who were vehement Paypal supporters actually didn't "get" the fact that Paypal can do exactly what it's doing to the OP. I guess I should've followed my own instincts -- I'm using Paypal for my current auctions, but then I'm done.

Best of luck to the OP for getting this mess straightened out!!

 

[Lewisc]

I'd estimate that over 90% of tickets sold on eBay are sold before they are actually in the hands of the buyer. The bottom line is everyone who purchased tickets got them and most got them months in advance. A whole lot of people ended up getting free tickets. And PayPal screwed me out of over $2,000.

In some states it's illegal to re-sell tickets. In some states it's illegal to sell tickets before you have them. I think you're required to ship 30 days after the auction ends.

You cut some corners, got caught and lost. I'm confused. Did PayPal keep the $2,000? Was it refunded to the buyers? Did it go to a government fine?

 

[RichNKatHolly]

Actually it doesn't sound mean it sounds criminal. She paid for the items and you're refusing to ship. It's really not her fault you're having a dispute with pay pal.

Suppose she paid you by check but a creditor had a lien on your checking account. You'd be in the same position. Would you still refuse to ship since you'd be unable to get the cash?

Pay pal could ban you. The buyer paid and you're refusing to ship. Sorry but you'll be earning the negative feedback.

She can get her $$ from paypal. In fact, if I could access the refund page I would have done so already. I never ship international orders without having the $$ in my bank account regardless of whether it's in paypal or not. That's my policy and it is stated to all my international purchasers.

You're entitled to you opinion and of course with the nature of several DIS threads lately I figured I'd get flamed here and there.

Again, I was simply trying to let people know what can happen with paypal if there is a problem. What your opinion is of my situation does not concern me.

I hope you never end up in the same boat.

 

[RichNKatHolly]

Hey, get off your high horse. She is not doing anything criminal. She explained to the buyer what is going on. Can you afford to lose 350.00???? The buyer will get their money back from paypal. She can still buy the item from another source if need be. Why should Kat be out the money and the item becuase Paypal is being unreasonable.

I think she is doing the wise thing. Yes the buyer paid, but if she can't access the money then what is she to do. Just say hey, what's 350.00??? The person will get their money back from Paypal. She is doing nothing wrong, Paypal is. Paypal should make their system FRUAD proof. It's possible, if they want to invest some money into it. If someone used her Paypal account then paypal should have the expertise to track that money down, and it isn't in Kat's account. The account holder doesn't have the access or the resources to track down these people, that is Paypal's job. If Paypal can't or won't do it, then they shouldn't be in the business they are in.

Just my .02!!

Ahhhhhh, thanks!

I did find out that is this woman's transaction which brought about the "suspicious" activity. I would advise not taking large payments from international sources if they are using a credit card.

 

[RichNKatHolly]

I guess I still don't understand why paypal took the money back anyway...

Either do I, paypal does not tell you. You awake one day to a Limited Access email and instructions on how to restore your account. Involves giving much more personal info, etc. Just not worth the trouble.

 

[angeleigh]

Though I have a great deal of sympathy for the sellers that have had problems with paypal I still like PayPal and Ebay. I have never sold things on Ebay but we buy a lot of things on Ebay (well over 400 transactions) and our regular policy is - no PayPal - no bid. There is a huge amount of fraud protection built into paypal - and it is directed at protecting the people who sent the money - which in my opinion is the correct approach. There is a lot more fraud of people paying and never getting the item or getting junk than any other fraud. If it was not for the policies in place the person that sent the money would just be out of luck and since the majority of the sellers are not licensed businesses there is no other recourse for a buyer that gets ripped off. For the seller that have to deal with these headaches - I can only say it is the same or worse in any regular retail business - some customers are never happy and in a regular business reversed charges on credit cards and stop payment on checks and complaints to BBB and state attorney general etc- it is all to be expected and dealt with. In a regular business you either give in to customer extortion even if they are wrong completely or you deal with the same type of headaches with credit card companies.
For the stories above - I am sympathetic to the problem but it really seems the problems are of your own making. You were a victim of internet fraud by an entity not PayPal which fooled you into releasing account info , or you violated the policies of Ebay by selling things you did not posess at the time of selling them. I guess I fail to see how that makes paypal a "bad thing".
The only problems I ever had on ebay that were never resolved were from sending checks/money orders where I never recieved anything back and if you have ever gone through the procedure of tracing a money order (it is not free) having it tracked to prove it was cashed by the party you sent it to and then being told it can't be refunded because it was cashed legally but the seller simply states "wasn't me that cashed it" and being told by Post Office thats the end of it no further investigation required, refund denied" .

PayPal protects the buyer and that is what it is designed to do - and without buyers there will be no need for sellers.

 

[dreams91]

How do you know if you are getting an international payment?

 

[Lewisc]

I don't want to sound too harsh BUT from the buyer's point of view ebay and our credit card gives us a level of protection. For the most part we're dealing with sellers from out of the area. Really no way for us to take bad sellers to small claims court.

Some sellers don't ship or substantially misrepresent an item. Just in this thread we have a seller that sold tickets before he even had the tickets in his possession. If you don't have the product and can't ship in a timely basis you deserve what you get.

There may be some times in which paypal backs the buyer when they shouldn't Close calls really have to go to the buyer if the system is going to work. Taking money out of your account doesn't really change anything. If paypal reverses the transaction you still owe them the money. It certainly makes it harder for them to collect what you owe them BUT IT MAKES YOU LOOK GUILTY. Zeroing out not only your paypal account but the linked bank account on an almost daily basis can look suspicious. Paypal can protect themselves from sellers by making sure they have enough money in their account to handle normal charge backs or do an extensive credit check. Assume a crook gets a large paypal payment from an accomplice. The account gets zeroed out and then the "buyer" files a claim.

You really have to address your underlying dispute with paypal. Making it harder for paypal to get money from you really doesn't solve your problem.

I understand your buyer will get their money back from paypal but supposed they paid by check and your checking account was frozen. Would you still have not shipped the item?

I'm not a paypal seller and am only an occasional buyer. From what I've read many of the problems sellers have is with international sales.

 

[RichNKatHolly]

Of course, if the payment was a check and my account was frozen I would have shipped the item. That would have to be something I did that warranted such an event (like a judgment, lien, etc). I work in the legal profession and would definately cooperate with something like that.

Unfortunately paypal does not tell you why they have frozen the account. You just get an email that says you are limited and have to do x,y,z to restore access. I don't agree or wish to provide x,y,z so I will forfeit my right to the account. If I had access to the person's money I would refund it immediately, but I do not, nor do I have $375 to repay the person for whom I listed this item (it is a vintage Gucci bag). If I was to ship it I would owe my friend the $$ and it would have to come from my pocket.

You are right that most problems stem from international transactions. Paypal will not confirm most international addresses to protect the seller but will still protect the buyer if they claim non-receipt. It's slightly unfair that way.

I'm not saying that everyone should close their paypal account. These methods they use are outlined in their policy (most of us do not read this). I'm just bringing to light what can happen to anyone ACCEPTING payments. Most using paypal just to buy will never experience a problem unless their account is accessed due to fraud.

 

[Lewisc]

I am puzzled. If paypal freezes your account isn't there a way to tell your side of the situation? I understand when the dust settles paypal may side with the buyer and you'd be out of luck but don't they have to tell you what the problem is? International funds come into your account and you withdraw them immediately. Limits paypals ability to recover the funds if there is a problem. If the buyer says the Gucci bag is counterfeit paypal really has right to know they can get the funds back easily.

Your situation is different than the other poster who sold tickets he didn't have and doesn't seem to understand the required shipping date is based on the auction date not the date of the event.

Your warnings may be of interest to some but A LOT OF BUYERS, myself included, wouldn't think of using a seller that didn't take paypal. I take that back, if the seller was major company that directly accepted credit cards I wouldn't have a problem.

Of course, if the payment was a check and my account was frozen I would have shipped the item. That would have to be something I did that warranted such an event (like a judgment, lien, etc). I work in the legal profession and would definately cooperate with something like that.

Unfortunately paypal does not tell you why they have frozen the account. You just get an email that says you are limited and have to do x,y,z to restore access. I don't agree or wish to provide x,y,z so I will forfeit my right to the account. If I had access to the person's money I would refund it immediately, but I do not, nor do I have $375 to repay the person for whom I listed this item (it is a vintage Gucci bag). If I was to ship it I would owe my friend the $$ and it would have to come from my pocket.

You are right that most problems stem from international transactions. Paypal will not confirm most international addresses to protect the seller but will still protect the buyer if they claim non-receipt. It's slightly unfair that way.

I'm not saying that everyone should close their paypal account. These methods they use are outlined in their policy (most of us do not read this). I'm just bringing to light what can happen to anyone ACCEPTING payments. Most using paypal just to buy will never experience a problem unless their account is accessed due to fraud.

 

[Alicnwondrln]

I had my account frozen and they say it is because I had user complaints filed against me. These were people who I gave full refunds to, who received their products. They were for Washington Nationals tickets for games from April-October. Most of them got their tickets at least 3 months before the game. They complained because they didn't get them immediately after purchasing them, that is only because I did not get my tickets until a week before the season started.




I explained this to PayPal and they said I would have to refund these people to be reinstated. Well I refunded them all, so they got their tickets for free... PayPal then decided to permanently close my account b/c of this.

They reversed a withdrawal of $2,700 to my checking account... I can't access this money until November. I can't afford to attend summer school this summer b/c of this and I may not graduate on time.

BEWARE OF PAYPAL!

This is crazy !!!! i cant believe this story. I cant believe this happens
im so glad i dont sell on ebay

 

[RichNKatHolly]

I am puzzled. If paypal freezes your account isn't there a way to tell your side of the situation? I understand when the dust settles paypal may side with the buyer and you'd be out of luck but don't they have to tell you what the problem is? International funds come into your account and you withdraw them immediately. Limits paypals ability to recover the funds if there is a problem. If the buyer says the Gucci bag is counterfeit paypal really has right to know they can get the funds back easily.

Your warnings may be of interest to some but A LOT OF BUYERS, myself included, wouldn't think of using a seller that didn't take paypal. I take that back, if the seller was major company that directly accepted credit cards I wouldn't have a problem.

If paypal doesn't want you to withdraw your funds immediately then they should not allow it. That is their problem if they cannot refund someone. In my case, I wouldn't sell anything without being 100% sure it is genuine. You can tell your side of the story to paypal until you are blue inthe face, you cannot reactivate your account without providing the additional info they require (trust me, it's a lot of info that I'm not sure many would be comfortable providing). My problem doesn't seem to stem from a buyer complaint but to "suspicious activity" as they put it. They want to further confirm my identity with credit checks, contacting a relative, linking a second bank account, etc. I've had a recent influx of payments into my account that are work related and then I've had this one large purchase from Australia - not sure how that is suspicous. I'm sure there are people out there transferring thousands into and out of their accounts on a regular basis.

I have not had a problem making a nice profit on my auctions when I did not take paypal and am not concerned with loosing bids. I see alot of info on these boards that may not interest me, but it's there and that's fine. Some people (including me) do not read the fine print when sigining up for something like paypal. They may not be aware that there can be problems with paypal. I would not advise anyone to leave any amount of $$ in their paypal accounts and I cannot see why anyone would. This is the reason for my post, not to dispute my problem but to shed light on what happens when there is a problem.

 

[threeboysmom]

Wow! This was certainly an eye-opening thread! I feel so bad for some of you that have lost so much money with ebay & paypal.

There's one thing I don't understand though. You're saying you received an email from Paypal about your account being frozen and it was a GENUINE email from Paypal and not a fraud?? I receive these emails all the time and have just deleted them immediately never thinking that one of them could actually be real. I'm assuming you didn't click on any of the links and simply deleted the email, right? And then you opened a new window and logged onto your Paypal account and saw that it was indeed frozen as the email stated??? I guess I've always assumed that Paypal or Ebay would call a person rather than sending an email especially with all the fradulent emails circulating around.

 

[Colinsmom]

There's one thing I don't understand though. You're saying you received an email from Paypal about your account being frozen and it was a GENUINE email from Paypal and not a fraud?? I receive these emails all the time and have just deleted them immediately never thinking that one of them could actually be real. I'm assuming you didn't click on any of the links and simply deleted the email, right? And then you opened a new window and logged onto your Paypal account and saw that it was indeed frozen as the email stated??? I guess I've always assumed that Paypal or Ebay would call a person rather than sending an email especially with all the fradulent emails circulating around.

They definitely do not call you when they freeze your account! You get an e-mail. When DH got one, we thought that it was a scam, but logged into his Paypal account (in a new window, as you described) and saw that it was not.

 

[tazleiten12]

There is a lot of problems with paypal, there is even a web site about it. Dont know if im allowed to post the site, but you can do a web search for paypal sucks, and read a lot about the problems of paypal.

 

[HaleyB]

In fact there is a current class action against PayPal for it's policy on locking people out of accounts without just cause. I was locked out of an account because the wrong password was tried 3 times in a row they locked my account and even though I can provide the correct password will not let me in. They have $60 and I cannot get to it. This is a huge proble, as it turns out.

Once an account is locked it is nearly impossible to get into it. They wanted a ton of information with no garentee that if provided they would unfreeze the account. I asked them just to mail a check to the address on file (which has not changed in over 5 years) and they said they wouldn't.

I still use Paypal but I opened an account only for this. It is not even at the same bank as my regular accounts. I sweep money out of the Paypal account and then out of the linked account right away.

Paypal does protect the buyer and I do use Paypal when I buy on ebay for that reason. Still I think they are unfair. The seller has almost no protection, and as a seller I can tell you some buyers are dishonest.

I think it is a wise policy not to ship an item until funds clear. If she can't get the money, the funds are not clear. Both parties are acting in good faith and it is no one but Paypal's fault the seller has not gotten the money, but the fact remains the funds are being held. The buyer can easily reverse the charge and get her money back, while the seller has no options.

 

[Wendy*Darling]

I used to be an ebay powerseller a couple of years ago but got totally burned out on it and stopped. At least at that time (2002/2003) there was a Paypal rep named Damon on the ebay boards. It seemed like a lot of people who had problems were able to get better help from him than from the "regular" paypal customer service. I remember more than one person saying they weren't even getting a reason why things happened the way they did and him being able to give them an answer. Maybe see if he is still there? They used to have a Paypal board and he was available there for help. People would post something like "Damon, can you help?" and then in the message ask him to email them.

I hope you are able to get it straightened out.

 

[RichNKatHolly]

I"m so sorry that the problem seems to be more widespread than I thought. Guess I'm not alone and that's a real problem in my eyes.

Thank goodness on my transaction the buyer has been great. She will file a dispute to retrieve her $$ and is understanding it can take 30 days. I will hold the item for her and ship after she receives the refund and repays with Bidpay ( I will of course cover her Bidpay fee on this which is about $2 ).

I've also heard from another Diser that they cannot hold your account frozen for more than 180 days. I cannot confirm that but I hope it's true. Now I have to wait 180 to get my stinkin $25 paycheck from my job. I have a friend who is now accepting my work-related money in his paypal account, but as for ebay and paypal - no more. I will take my chances with a personal check (I feel it's less of a risk and to date have not had a problem). Most of my transactions though are usually under $50.

Good luck all! Let's hope that a reputable alternative to paypal comes along soon!