DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Let’s not get into personal judgements of others. Posts were deleted.

Big reminder…no one is in violation of the contract UNTIL DVC tells them their level of renting is not reasonable in relation to the right to rent.

I agree that none of us can be confident our interpretation of the contract is correct until DVC starts to take action showing what they will no longer tolerate (so there is no basis to tell others whether their use is safe or dangerous, except in outlier cases), but it is incorrect to say no one is in violation until DVC tells them. There are absolutely people Disney currently believes are in violation (and it’s speculated that many AUL sellers have already been informed as such).

Just as we should not judge, we also shouldn’t reassure people who are renting regularly and frequently that they can’t possibly be in violation simply because Disney has not chosen to target them yet.

If less than 1% of DVC points are used by the commercial operators to make and sell reservstions (which I think is quite likely to be the case) then I don’t think it is unreasonable for DVC to state that commercial renting “is not a common practice”.

I seriously doubt that Disney would be doing anything at all if they thought the problem impacted less than 1% of the DVC points.

Disney has separate reasons to claim commercial renting is not common, and of course, common is in the eye of the beholder, like “frequently” and “regularly.”

I really hope DVC doesn’t add reCaptcha to bookings - imagine being on the west coast, getting up at 5am and trying to book and prove you’re a human by marking all the squares with bicycles (or whatever) - remember, everything that DVC does to make booking more complex for ‘them’ is also going to make booking more complex for ‘us’.

I am nearly certain I’m worse at Captcha than the average bot, even before you consider the 5AM hour pre-caffeine. Having said that, I would be in favor of something that slows down automated scripts or spec renters before they can get to the availability page, even if it occasionally causes me minor annoyance.

So let me get this straight. DVC publicly states that they have created a separate, dedicated operating group within MA/MS, tasked with ferreting out commercial renters, and further states it’s important enough to them to “go after it” with this dedicated team, … “Added resources” and “whole team of folks focused on this”, …

Don’s post said it better than I could, this is not actually a tiny problem or they wouldn’t be dedicating headcount and resources to address it.

A commercial owner is looking at overhead. A broker is overhead.

I would not assume that just because someone is doing commercial activity for profit that they are determined to maximize profit. You can still be a for profit corporation even if you leave money on the table sometimes. Believe it or not, even Disney sometimes charges less than the market will bear!

 

[Cyberc1978]

The thing that would actually solve all of this, which they're not going to do because the entire membership would have a temper tantrum, is dramatically raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1 bedrooms.

A properly-balanced points chart would have rooms that are equally difficult to book across room types and points seasons. If it's too hard to get a Studio, Studios are too cheap. If it's too hard to book in December, December is too cheap, etc.

ETA: They obviously couldn't do this across resorts because Saratoga Springs is never going to book as quickly as Beach Club, but within the home resort booking window, pricing should be restructured to mitigate disproportionate demand.

But that's the problem, they can't make studios more expensive and at the same time lower the 1br. They can lower the studios in 1 season and raise them in another. Same with 1br, lower in 1 season and higher in another,

This AND - put in reCaptcha on the booking screen to prevent automated bots from booking rooms. I can not believe that they have no protection from automation in the booking screen.

reCaptcha can easily be circumvented.

So let me get this straight. DVC publicly states that they have created a separate, dedicated operating group within MA/MS, tasked with ferreting out commercial renters, and further states it’s important enough to them to “go after it” with this dedicated team, yet we’re going to operate on the assumption (based on rainbows and unicorns I guess), that the issue is not, in fact, widespread and maybe only affects < 1% of reservations and is therefore of di minimis importance.




“Added resources” and “whole team of folks focused on this”, for an issue that’s so small as to really amount to nothing more than a nothing burger. Someone better be sending letters to DVC demanding to find out just how much this wild goose chase by this “whole team of folks” is costing us.

Also, if it’s no big deal, what “improvement” was Yvonne Chang hoping to see?

It's not costing members 1 single penny to do this. DVC gets the same amount of money regardless of how many employees they hire. That's why DVC won't just hire people because it means less money for them.

 

[Mouseforward]

There are absolutely people Disney currently believes are in violation (and it’s speculated that many AUL sellers have already been informed as such).

1- I’ve been looking at the aggregators, and I don’t see any uptick outside the normal fluctuation for any resort in resale sales.

2. AUL would be the last resort I would expect that people would own if they were wanting to rent point commercially for Walt Disney World. It just doesn’t make sense. Now if there was an up tick in boardwalk that would make sense.

 

[Cyberc1978]

If you’re talking the total percentage of points not the percentage of owners - 1% is ridiculously low. It could very well be one percentage of the owners but that’s not really relevant. If they average 4000 points each and the average DVC owner has between 200 and 300.

The part that gets lost in the shuffle is what is the effect? Which goes back to what is the difference between a commercial renter booking patterns verse the regular DVC user. Since the point would not disappear if we removed commercial renters, they would be sold.

I definitely can see there’s a difference in studio booking but would it be more than 20%? So you’re really talking 20% of whatever percent of commercial rental points you land on. Obviously, that significantly reduces the effect.

I don't know how many points there are exactly in the system.

Only counting by the millions there are 63 millions. With the new resorts a ballpark number is 70-75million points.

if only 1% is rented its 700.000 - 750.000 points now THATS a ton of points and its still ONLY 1%. Imagine if we talked about 5% or even 10% being rented.

 

[Cyberc1978]

There's still way too much gray area in the middle of "commercial renting" and "personal use."

If I book a room for my sister and don't charge her anything, that's not "commercial renting," nor is it "personal use."

If I book a room for my sister and she pays me $15 per point, that's not "commercial renting," nor is it "personal use."

If my kid breaks her leg so I can't make my trip and rent the room to a stranger on Facebook, that's not "commercial renting," nor is it "personal use."

You have to see the personal use in the context of the POS. Personal use is among others defined by letting lessees, invitees and guests use the room you booked.

 

[zavandor]

But that's the problem, they can't make studios more expensive and at the same time lower the 1br. They can lower the studios in 1 season and raise them in another. Same with 1br, lower in 1 season and higher in another,

Exactly.

It's illegal and they cannot do it.

Also, when they tried in 2020, the actually increased both studios and 1BR, lowering only slightly 2BR and some 3BR. It's not a good idea to let DVC have this power
Beware what you wish for.

 

[Mouseforward]

I don't know how many points there are exactly in the system. I found an old article from 2019:
https://*******.com/forum/threads/total-dvc-points-at-each-resort.9877/

Only counting by the millions there are 63 millions. With the new resorts a ballpark number is 70-75million points.

if only 1% is rented its 700.000 - 750.000 points now THATS a ton of points and its still ONLY 1%. Imagine if we talked about 5% or even 10% being rented.

But the points would be rented if they were sold to regular DVC owners so its not 700,000 its a fraction of that effect on the availability.

Basically, the difference between what a commercial renter would rent ( 90% studios) and a regular DVC member ( which could be 80%, 70% or also 90% studios)

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

1- I’ve been looking at the aggregators, and I don’t see any uptick outside the normal fluctuation for any resort in resale sales.

Then you aren't looking very closely. There was a big uptick in specific resorts (but not others) right after the box appeared. BWV and AKV both saw a big increase in contracts on the market. AUL had already had a huge uptick that was widely commented on here.

2. AUL would be the last resort I would expect that people would own if they were wanting to rent point commercially for Walt Disney World. It just doesn’t make sense. Now if there was an up tick in boardwalk that would make sense.

AUL is very popular with renters for renting certain categories at AUL, which again, has been widely discussed on these boards. AUL-S is popular for renting everywhere.

 

[Tatebeck]

But that's the problem, they can't make studios more expensive and at the same time lower the 1br. They can lower the studios in 1 season and raise them in another. Same with 1br, lower in 1 season and higher in another,

reCaptcha can easily be circumvented.

It's not costing members 1 single penny to do this. DVC gets the same amount of money regardless of how many employees they hire. That's why DVC won't just hire people because it means less money for them.

It depends on how the units and declarations were done at each resort.

So if there were roughly the same number of 1brs and studios in each unit declared, then I believe they could actually manage to do it, as long as the total points in each unit are the same before and after the adjustments.

 

[Mouseforward]

Then you aren't looking very closely. There was a big uptick in specific resorts (but not others) right after the box appeared. BWV and AKV both saw a big increase in contracts on the market. AUL had already had a huge uptick that was widely commented on here.

AUL is very popular with renters for renting certain categories at AUL, which again, has been widely discussed on these boards. AUL-S is popular for renting everywhere.

I am not seeing any uptick at all just the usual wave fluctuation . I think this may be more myth , commented on here does not equal reality.

AUL is not going to even move the needle for WDW issues , no spec renter is going to get anything at 7 months.

 

[alex33x]

The reason why I bought a big contract in my case, was so that I could rent points every year to help me pay for my trips. I'm not very happy with this new policy, but I guess we have to wait and see how it will actually impact people who do use their points every year.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I am not seeing any uptick at all just the usual wave fluctuation . I think this may be more myth , commented on here does not equal reality.

AUL is not going to even move the needle for WDW issues , no spec renter is going to get anything at 7 months.

BWV listings went up about 50% (not counting the reasonable priced ones that sold quickly) in a week. I'm discussing my own counts, not what I saw discussed here, much of which is extremely unreliable. If you think that's "usual wave fluctuation", I'm not getting paid enough to debate it with you.

Likewise, you're free to believe whatever you want about AUL's desirability as a rental enterprise and the ability to spec rent at 7mo... but if you studied it closely, you might find your beliefs would evolve.

 

[Cyberc1978]

But the points would be rented if they were sold to regular DVC owners so its not 700,000 its a fraction of that effect on the availability.

Basically, the difference between what a commercial renter would rent ( 90% studios) and a regular DVC member ( which could be 80%, 70% or also 90% studios)

My point is if 1% or even less than 1% of the points are the problem then its still 700,000 points.

For the month of May 2026 it takes daily approximately 4,238 points to book all BWV SV studios or approx 131,000 to book them all for the entire month of May, that's 0,187% of the total points in the system.

For a value studio its 1,134 daily or 35,154 for the entire month of May or 0,050% of the total points in the system.

Combine them its 0,237% of the total points in the system or 166,000 points.

 

[Mouseforward]

BWV listings went up about 50% (not counting the reasonable priced ones that sold quickly) in a week. I'm discussing my own counts, not what I saw discussed here, much of which is extremely unreliable. If you think that's "usual wave fluctuation", I'm not getting paid enough to debate it with you.

Likewise, you're free to believe whatever you want about AUL's desirability as a rental enterprise and the ability to spec rent at 7mo... but if you studied it closely, you might find your beliefs would evolve.

do you have a source where I can see these numbers?

 

[Cyberc1978]

Then you aren't looking very closely. There was a big uptick in specific resorts (but not others) right after the box appeared. BWV and AKV both saw a big increase in contracts on the market. AUL had already had a huge uptick that was widely commented on here.

AUL is very popular with renters for renting certain categories at AUL, which again, has been widely discussed on these boards. AUL-S is popular for renting everywhere.

How many listings of the alleged uptick were unique listings and not cross posted?

 

[Mouseforward]

My point is if 1% or even less than 1% of the points are the problem then its still 700,000 points.

For the month of May 2026 it takes daily approximately 4,238 points to book all BWV SV studios or approx 131,000 to book them all for the entire month of May, that's 0,187% of the total points in the system.

For a value studio its 1,134 daily or 35,154 for the entire month of May or 0,050% of the total points in the system.

Combine them its 0,237% of the total points in the system or 166,000 points.

Your missing that it is not 700,000 - the points wont disappear if the renters sell them

 

[Cyberc1978]

It depends on how the units and declarations were done at each resort.

So if there were roughly the same number of 1brs and studios in each unit declared, then I believe they could actually manage to do it, as long as the total points in each unit are the same before and after the adjustments.

The problem is that we have dedicated 1br and studios. I don't know how many we have of each in each declared units.

Let's take BWV as an example. We have 15 dedicated standard studios and 37 locksoffs. For the 1BR we have 23 dedicated and 37 lockoffs.

I don't know if they could legally raise/lower the point costs for all the lockoffs rooms individually as they are definitely in the same declared unit. But the others are perhaps not, and you can raise some standard rooms and not others.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

do you have a source where I can see these numbers?

I'm not aware of any 3rd party service that takes snapshots across time. I have my own text messages where I tracked the number that were listed the day the box appeared vs. the number that appeared a few days later and a week later. New listings seem to have slowed way down again over the past week.

How many listings of the alleged uptick were unique listings and not cross posted?

The aggregator I use appears to have filtered out cross postings that are identical, though I wouldn't bet my life against a few coming through... having said that, I looked at all BVW, VGC, BCV listings very closely and there were not identical contracts listed for any of them during the two week increase in listings (BCV didn't have a noticeable spike, VGC went up but nowhere near as much as BWV).

 

[TCRAIG]

Another word to get hung up on. What do you consider limited?

As stated many times before - doesn’t matter what I consider ‘limited’ - it only matters what Disney thinks…but for the record - in my opinion - I think 99% of owners fall under non-commercial renters due to Disney’s loose definition of regular and frequent…
Do I think DVC will ‘go after’ someone who has 200 points and rents 100 each year? Nope - I don’t. Do I think Disney will look at a membership that has 2000 points and rents 100 1 or 2 night reservations a year? Yup - I think they fit the definition of commercial.

 

[Tatebeck]

The problem is that we have dedicated 1br and studios. I don't know how many we have of each in each declared units.

Let's take BWV as an example. We have 15 dedicated standard studios and 37 locksoffs. For the 1BR we have 23 dedicated and 37 lockoffs.

I don't know if they could legally raise/lower the point costs for all the lockoffs rooms individually as they are definitely in the same declared unit. But the others are perhaps not, and you can raise some standard rooms and not others.

They already have a different point cost when booked individually as components instead of being booked as a 2br. That is the lockoff premium. So as long as they make the individual component rooms match the normal dedicated studios/1br it would be doable I think?