DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

I am cautiously optimistic about this change (standard view BWV 2 Bed lock-off I am coming for you). I do think it will impact the resale market in the short term. The counterpoint to impacting resale would be the October 2024 AUL "dump" did not seem to decrease resale prices. It is going to be interesting to watch if resale inventory increases appreciably over the coming weeks.

On the whole I do not believe that this is Disney protecting developer sold points it seems like a genuine effort to improve the DVC ownership experience.
 
Right this moment, if I try to book a room 11 months out, just over 24% of the room types are unavailable. (30/123)

When I bought 8 years ago it was treated as common knowledge that you can basically get anything but those 2 room types at AKL at 9-10 months or so, and some start to fill up but most things would even still be available at 7 months for bouncing around. The number of owners within single resorts has not gone up enough to cause a change. The 7 months issue is absolutely explainable by new resorts. 11 month? Not explained by "more owners" when looking at resorts that have been sold out for years. Walking, which separately is an issue, is one of those issues that comes up due to difficulty and like the renting thing snowballs a small, inconsistent issue, into a constant one. The more people who have trouble, the more people who walk, which causes more walking, etc.

As of now, 30 different room types, across 9 different resorts, are completely off limits 11 months out. That is not what it was a decade ago. People are complaining that it has gotten worse because it has gotten worse. I mean we own 4 resorts because we used the points from the first to try out the other 3 and then bought in... all three of those rooms we stayed in to test out those resorts, I couldn't book today at 11 months- I sure as heck wouldn't have gotten a 5-6 nights at 7 months.
What sort of rooms are unavailable out of interest? I was the under the impression that pretty much all rooms were bookable at 11 months.
 
I think profit does need to be taken in to consideration.

I think of it this way - if you make a profit it does not necessarily make a rental commercial, as per your examples above.

However, if there is no money changing hands, no matter how frequent or regular the rentals are, Disney cannot possible argue that this constitutes ‘commercial’ use (I.e. in the business of making a profit from something).

The number of rentals does not tell the whole story necessarily. Disney can infer that frequent rentals = making money to the extent it is a business, but they will have to take other factors in to account.

Disney can't possibly know if you're taking money for a reservation you're booking, unless you tell them.
 
Right this moment, if I try to book a room 11 months out, just over 24% of the room types are unavailable. (30/123)

When I bought 8 years ago it was treated as common knowledge that you can basically get anything but those 2 room types at AKL at 9-10 months or so, and some start to fill up but most things would even still be available at 7 months for bouncing around. The number of owners within single resorts has not gone up enough to cause a change. The 7 months issue is absolutely explainable by new resorts. 11 month? Not explained by "more owners" when looking at resorts that have been sold out for years. Walking, which separately is an issue, is one of those issues that comes up due to difficulty and like the renting thing snowballs a small, inconsistent issue, into a constant one. The more people who have trouble, the more people who walk, which causes more walking, etc.

As of now, 30 different room types, across 9 different resorts, are completely off limits 11 months out. That is not what it was a decade ago. People are complaining that it has gotten worse because it has gotten worse. I mean we own 4 resorts because we used the points from the first to try out the other 3 and then bought in... all three of those rooms we stayed in to test out those resorts, I couldn't book today at 11 months- I sure as heck wouldn't have gotten a 5-6 nights at 7 months.
I think perspective is needed here. I’ve never looked at that number, but I saw the 24% and immediately said to myself “oh, that’s actually a nice availability at 11 months!”.

What might seem bad to someone, might be great to someone else. Honestly I think 76% availability at 11 months is amazing.
 

I think perspective is needed here. I’ve never looked at that number, but I saw the 24% and immediately said to myself “oh, that’s actually a nice availability at 11 months!”.

What might seem bad to someone, might be great to someone else. Honestly I think 76% availability at 11 months is amazing.

It really drives home the need to plan ahead when you buy a timeshare. You need to be able to plan your vacations a year plus out. Otherwise you will be frustrated. But frankly that is not unique to DVC.
 
ON the other hand, the 'spec' renters who grab New Years eve Value studios at AKV just to make a killing on selling points to those 'poor unfortunate souls' at 30 a point and deal in 1000 point and UP transactions are clearly stepping over the line. However, all that said, i do not think it is right to punish everyone because just a handful of huge holders have 'worked the system'. Frankly I say live and let live; if the big guys want to do it what is the harm to the regular small owner? Why should I be jealous just because someone else has more money and owns thousands of points?
I think the issue is this isn’t meant to be a commercial enterprise. I hear you, and would recommend to new direct buyers in many instances to just buy a fixed week it will be much easier than dealing with this points business… Especially if you know you are going every year…
I think it should be only for those who buy contracts going forward from now, not for the small owners who have been loyal for 5 years and more.
I really doubt small owners are going to be affected. It won’t be worth Disney’s time to deal with every little Aunt Mabel… They couldn’t even get Aunt Mabel to sign her Quit Claim deed on OKW… I doubt Disney will be litigating every rental…

I’m curious how these discussions will play into next week’s meeting! Hope we have some DISboard folks there as well as @pkrieger2287 @tjkraz on the seen providing live coverage!
 
I think perspective is needed here. I’ve never looked at that number, but I saw the 24% and immediately said to myself “oh, that’s actually a nice availability at 11 months!”.

What might seem bad to someone, might be great to someone else. Honestly I think 76% availability at 11 months is amazing.

I bet most of those 24% that are unavailable at 11 months are personal use.
 
ON the other hand, the 'spec' renters who grab New Years eve Value studios at AKV just to make a killing on selling points to those 'poor unfortunate souls' at 30 a point and deal in 1000 point and UP transactions are clearly stepping over the line.
Well, thanks... I'll have the song stuck in my head the rest of the afternoon 😂

At least the idea of the little souls in Ursula's lair being DVC renters, desperate for NYE at an AKV value studio, is very amusing!
 
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The permissible personal use v. impermissible commercial use has never been clearly defined. At one point more than 20 was the magic number, but that language is long gone & when last I checked (circa 2024) DVC’s doc.s stated that the policies in place could be viewed upon request.
What is set forth in the home resort rules & the POS in several places is that DVC is for personal use along with clear warnings that you should not purchase DVC expecting among other things to rent your interest for profit. The documents do not expressly forbid renting & there is a requirement that if you rent you must have a contract w/ your renter. There’s also a clause that prior approval from DVC is not required when you make a reservation in ‘a renter’s own name’ followed by a warning to not buy w/ an expectation you’ll be able to reserve & rent to 3rd parties.
…What is now clear is that DVC does not consider frequent and regular renting to be acceptable under the personal use clause.

But, frequent and regular can be as broad or as narrow as they want…under one caveat, they need to make it reasonable and in line with the FL law.

Now, they could decide to not and make owners fight.
The actual new language is “[p]ersonal use means that the member does not regularly or frequently rent/sell reservations booked using their membership [emphasis added.]” Legally using ‘and’ v. ‘or’ makes a difference, ‘and’ requires that the member be found to be renting both regularly & frequently, whereas ‘or’ only requires that the member do one of those two things to run afoul of the rules. Realistically this may be a distinction w/out a difference & I tend to agree that they’ll target the big players initially. I can’t think of an example of someone frequently but not regularly renting - however it seems DVC’s lawyers who drafted the document can, because they chose the disjunctive ‘or’ over the conjunctive ‘and.’

Interestingly, regarding making the owner’s fight, I noticed that in the new doc. there is a choice of law clause & it includes an express waiver of trial by jury, so DVC is getting it’s ducks in a row should this head to court 😂.
However, I suspect that the majority of owners rarely if ever rent out their points/reservations & thus wouldn’t be interested in joining a class action suit brought on behalf of those who frequently or regularly rent. The Gorillas in the room, OTH…
 
My parents have a ton of points under many of many of contracts (Many different home resorts). They have never rented points out. However, we go on massive family trips were we book upwards of 8-10 rooms, the most may have been 20 rooms for one trip. Also, we have been on trips with a ton of friends (each getting their own room).

All of these rooms are booked under my parent's points as gifts, but obviously not under my parent's name. How can the Walt Disney Company tell that we are using these points for personal use instead of commercial use?
If you are traveling as one big group, they can note it as "Traveling With" by calling DVC Member Services. This will have several advantages, especially for that many rooms. I've used up to 4 rooms at once, for a large group. By having the Traveling With notation, the resort will do their best to place your rooms close to each other. They will not that. overall. the check-in/check-out dates are the same, or nearly the same. for the entire group. And they can tell yo who to contact at Dining to try to arrange large group meals, if you want to dine together.
 
It makes DVC sound like a scam but to increase the enjoyment of timeshare, just buy more timeshare. If you have enough points to book 1 bedroom or larger villas, you can sleep soundly and pretty much never have to worry about availability. It's only people who want to stay in studios that have all these issues with availability. Obviously because they're lower in points, but possibly also because that's what is rented most and so that's what brokers book most. Once all the brokers are out of the system we'll see how demand settles in. This will take months to years to fully shake out though.
yeah, maybe. The majority of the time I use my points during April break - where there is plenty of availability - probably because I'm booking 11 months out and that week is always the highest amount of points required. I'm guessing the "confirmed reservations" people are booking more of the lower weeks - making it more difficult for those folks looking to book those same rooms for their own stay - so maybe those rooms will become easier to book once the rentals of confirmed reservations are halted. one never knows....
 
The permissible personal use v. impermissible commercial use has never been clearly defined. At one point more than 20 was the magic number, but that language is long gone & when last I checked (circa 2024) DVC’s doc.s stated that the policies in place could be viewed upon request.
What is set forth in the home resort rules & the POS in several places is that DVC is for personal use along with clear warnings that you should not purchase DVC expecting among other things to rent your interest for profit. The documents do not expressly forbid renting & there is a requirement that if you rent you must have a contract w/ your renter. There’s also a clause that prior approval from DVC is not required when you make a reservation in ‘a renter’s own name’ followed by a warning to not buy w/ an expectation you’ll be able to reserve & rent to 3rd parties.

People figured out a way to get around this rule by owning multiple memberships under multiple different LLC names and different trusts. So when DVC states exactly what the limit is people who are out to profit will find a way.
 
And going back to the meetings in December, they really did seem to say it’s those large point owners who are clearly doing it as a business.

They chose the words in the updated T and C carefully and made sure that the consequences of being found using the membership outside those terms something an owners has acknowledged.

So, this puts everyone in notice

Did they actually say what a large point owner is? I once thought I was a large point owner until a friend told me he knew of lots of people with 4,000-12,000 points and that suddenly made me feel like a small point owner. So which am I?
 
yeah, maybe. The majority of the time I use my points during April break - where there is plenty of availability - probably because I'm booking 11 months out and that week is always the highest amount of points required. I'm guessing the "confirmed reservations" people are booking more of the lower weeks - making it more difficult for those folks looking to book those same rooms for their own stay - so maybe those rooms will become easier to book once the rentals of confirmed reservations are halted. one never knows....

Yeah the confirmed reservation people aren't booking Easter week because they don't want to tie that many points up if it doesn't rent.
 
All I need to know is, will I soon be able to book value and club studios using my AKL points without needing to refill my Omeprazole prescription?
This made me laugh, but I am also wishing for the best for you. I suspect there are a lot of DVC owners like me who love both AKL and BWV but won’t buy there because it’s infuriating and stressful to compete with spec rental bots.
I called DVC today and essentially they told me as long as we're renting to family and friends and using the majority of our points each year then we would be ok.
This is actually what I want to hear, but I recognize there are some circumstances where I hope Disney will allow more flexibility, especially foreign owners.
This is infuriating to me because this particular year we have rented all our points and likely will have to do so for the next 3 years. Regardless of your political leanings, we're Canadian and our government has advised us to exercise caution travelling to the USA. Many other countries have done the same.
I would hope that if you have a history of using almost all of your points for your own travel and explain this to Disney, they would be understanding.

Maybe I’ll luck out and this will scare some people and they’ll sell off their Aulani DVC resale super cheap
That is already happening.
As I said upthread, Bloomberg Law has reported that Disney has around 300 lawyers on staff in-house, and another 1,100 on retention. Granted, those are spread out across all aspects of their businesses, but likely mostly in entertainment and business/contract law, so a contract battle with a few vocal “professional DVC renters” probably doesn’t even make for decent water cooler chat.

Disney has proven it's willing to go to the mattresses with the disabled community. Butting heads with a few disgruntled DVC owners in a dispute over dollars and contractual language, versus disabled access to theme park attractions, is just another Monday for them.
I am not one of Disney’s lawyers, but I am a lawyer (and friends with Disney lawyers) and I am certain they can handle defending this policy without any real risk of loss, especially if occasional rentals are allowed.
They also have a huge advantage, which is that the only person for whom it would be worth bringing a very expensive lawsuit is a commercial renter! I also don’t know how you could demonstrate any significant harm without establishing that you are regularly and predictably renting for profit.
 
Did they actually say what a large point owner is? I once thought I was a large point owner until a friend told me he knew of lots of people with 4,000-12,000 points and that suddenly made me feel like a small point owner. So which am I?
I dont think Disney cares if you own 50,000 points across multiple memberships as long as you personally are living it up in Grand Villas and not renting out studios for profit.
 
I own a small DVC contract and didn’t plan on traveling this year. A few months before summer some family members wanted to go and convinced me to come as well. Knowing that getting a 7 day long reservation would be challenging with only about 4 months until our travel dates I started frequenting (as in daily) both the DVC page and rental sites plus aggregators. Over that time I noticed rooms becoming available on DVC then nearly immediately being posted on rental pages. I have to say that this experience makes me believe that large scale rental outfits and frequent renters are indeed effecting availability to the detriment of everyday DVC owners.

100% the rental companies have really made using my points much more difficult. (I purchased DVC in 2002.)
 












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