DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[SL6827]

This just seems to wreak of shadiness day by day.

 

[Minniemoo15]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

 

[Heather07438]

Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I guess this part sense. If the points for sale are higher than the points for use, then there definitely wouldn't be enough to go around for reservations that year. It would run short.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

Ah - pretty certain that is wrong. Like - completely wrong.
And pretty scary if that's what they think and are working from.

 

[Minniemoo15]

Ah - pretty certain that is wrong. Like - completely wrong.
And pretty scary if that's what they think and are working from.

I really hope it’s wrong. I pushed the question 3 times during the conversation and kept circling back to it as it was really surprising to me . They were hesitating a bit but kept saying there is legally *no* limit to the points for use charts. They kept reassuring me DVCM would never just add points to a chart at will year after year but it doesn’t give me much solace that this could theoretically happen.

 

[CarolMN]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

IMO, that explanation makes no sense at all and cannot possibly be correct.

 

[Leight19]

IMO, that explanation makes no sense at all and cannot possibly be correct.

I don’t know much about time share law but I will never believe they can legally just increase the points needed to book the hotel across the board without limitations. I don’t recall exact wording in contract but as dvc members we bought a percentage of the resort. To make system simple, they represent this ownership as a points and let us trade points for rentals at our resort and others. If they were to make a 4 million point resort to 5 million this would no longer be representative of our ownership in the resort as stated in our contracts. The fact that you had members of the dvc team think they can essentially just unilaterally decrease the ownership we bought in a property without limits is crazy to me.

 

[Sandisw]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

Ouch. I am not quite sure what to say. I do know that timeshare law does define what can be sold and that defines only enough points to do a one to one ratio to rooms for years with 365 days and 366 days for leap year,

However, it don’t think they can simply add to the points chart..with the exception of maybe some limited play with lock off premium since we have no idea what that truly is..and yes, I know others disagree.

But, even that plays no role with Poly. It is sad that there is no real clear info that is given.

 

[SL6827]

Yep, the books are cooking!

 

[New Mouse]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

Ill bet someone a dollar their legal team would probably not stand behind these comments. While I respect their being up front, at the end of the day they are underqualified management making "legal" decisions, which they generally know nothing about. DVC has had a notorious history of legal gaffes, this is likely just another one.

 

[New Mouse]

I really hope it’s wrong. I pushed the question 3 times during the conversation and kept circling back to it as it was really surprising to me . They were hesitating a bit but kept saying there is legally *no* limit to the points for use charts. They kept reassuring me DVCM would never just add points to a chart at will year after year but it doesn’t give me much solace that this could theoretically happen.

They can reassure you all they want, but the fact of the matter is thats exactly what they are doing. Adjustment of point charts is not supposed to be an arbitrary decision. These guys are trying to make a name for themselves and move up.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Yes, DVC reversed course with a noticeable shift in the lock off premium in 2020, but I have yet to see exact language from the POS or timeshare law that prevents any change or that those must remain point neutral.

I had a long phone conversation with Yvonne Chang (Director, Club Management and Regulatory Affairs) when the 2020 point charts were originally released. The manipulation of the lock-off premium increased the total number of points required to book out the resort by up to 10%. I questioned how the increase could possibly be a benefit to the membership. Her replies were:

1. I was mistaken, as members don't know how many rooms of each category there are.

2. Breakage benefits member first, DVCMC only accesses unbooked rooms at 60 days.

3. Points in 2BR lock-offs are calculated based on the 2BR (not 1BR+Studio). So the charts are legal.

I replied that resort room numbers were public knowledge from the declarations. While the lock-off premium was technically legal, some of those 2BRs were never booked as 2BRs - the studios were walked year round. Unless some 2BR lock-offs were reserved to be booked as 2BRs, the charts were functionally illegal. Chang insisted that Disney cared about members, and those charts were withdrawn not because they were illegal, but as a result of the importance Disney placed on member feedback.

The impression I got was DVD/DVCMC treated those calls as surveys. They wanted to gauge how much they could pinch members, for us to still shrug it off and pay... like an overpriced bad massage at a resort spa.

My view is the law defines the minimum standards. The POS guarantees no future resort access, no continual existence of current facilities (VGF with no GF or the Parks, anyone? Oh, wait...), no resale value, and is intentionally murky on reallocations. But even the cynical amongst us bought in, expecting the risk of complete disaster to be low. The timeshare property consumer's rights are often better protected by the developer's willingness to operate above the standards enforced by law. Good customer service is good business, and the net promoter score is worth money to Disney. I'm thankful @zavandor initiated the inquiries, and enough people joined in to let Disney know that we noticed the discrepancies!

 

[Minniemoo15]

They can reassure you all they want, but the fact of the matter is thats exactly what they are doing. Adjustment of point charts is not supposed to be an arbitrary decision. These guys are trying to make a name for themselves and move up.

Right ... and I wanted to say (afterwards I think of all the right things I should have said)... just because you say you’re acting in good faith, how can I be sure the managers in 20 years time will do the same if legally they can raise the points however they want ?

I went into the conversation wanting to get a magic number - the maximum total number of points allowed in a yearly chart at PVB. I was prepared for them to not want to disclose this information ... what I was not prepared for was for them to tell me this number did not exist !

I do not know enough about POS or even point totals so I could not push back too much on what they were telling me. I am not sure where to go from here but it is disconcerting to say the least.

 

[Lorana]

I had my call today with two managers. They were very friendly. They started off by saying the increases to PVBs point charts were due to seasonal shifts, Easter etc.

I asked about point totals. They said there are two totals. Points for sale (which is the number outlined in the POS as points declared and cannot increase) and points for use (which are the points in the point chart). Points for use CAN increase but can never be lower than points for sale.

I asked what the increase limit was. They said legally there was no limit and point charts can be increased based on demand/seasons etc. They said they knew that this answer wasn’t satisfying but that there is no intent to add points to charts.

This was very surprising for me...So I pushed for clarification... there is legally nothing to stop Poly’s point chart from going from 4 million to 5 million to 10 million? They said no there is nothing legally to stop this beyond that any day cannot increase more than 20%. I said theoretically they could increase every day in a year by 20% and do this year after year? They said yes but this would never happen. If a chart gets too out of whack they get hundreds of emails and they have only gotten a handful about 2022.

I do feel slightly better after the call as they said they reran the analysis for PVB 2022 chart and said it is simply an outlier year and within normal to-be-expected shifts.

But yikes. Our points are not as safe as I thought they were .

I don’t know much about time share law but I will never believe they can legally just increase the points needed to book the hotel across the board without limitations. I don’t recall exact wording in contract but as dvc members we bought a percentage of the resort. To make system simple, they represent this ownership as a points and let us trade points for rentals at our resort and others. If they were to make a 4 million point resort to 5 million this would no longer be representative of our ownership in the resort as stated in our contracts. The fact that you had members of the dvc team think they can essentially just unilaterally decrease the ownership we bought in a property without limits is crazy to me.

What Disney is doing cannot be legal. As Leight19 noted, when we purchase into DVC, we buy a % ownership of a unit (as stated in our contract and title deed). This is represented by our annual point allotment. Thus, the total SALE points and the total annual POINT CHARTS are linked. For example, I have a CCV resale contract that represents 0.2867% of Unit 5C, which is 100 points. You can't endlessly raise the point costs for staying at CCV and still have my ownership represent 0.2867% because the sale points of a resort are supposed to represent every room being booked every day of the year. if the sale points are 5 million but they've raised point charts to 10 million for the year, that is not possible.

I'm not a timeshare lawyer, but there's just no way what Disney is saying can be true. My 100 points need to represent 0.2867% of my unit.

What is the email address we should all be using to send inquiries to Disney about the issues with the 2022 chart? PVB is the most obvious, but analysis of other resorts have shown a "slight increase" that most on these boards were willing to accept. But those answers above makes me think they are playing games and hoping no one notices (it's only 10,000 points more, for example, so "within reason" so owners will let us get away with it...); they just made a mistake with PVB that made it easier to see what was going on since the lock-offs aren't there to confuse people.

 

[New Mouse]

At the end of the day, Disney is allowed to eliminate banking, borrowing and the ability to book outside your home resort. With that being said, there has to be a finite amount of points or this might not occur if it were to ever happen.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Ok so explain to me how you guys are figuring out the point discrepancy because I want to call them too. What are you adding exactly? I agree that the total number of points should not change. Dh says dvc needs a class action to put an end to this because they are obviously trying (and often succeeding) to slip this through to varying degrees every year.

 

[Minniemoo15]

What Disney is doing cannot be legal. As Leight19 noted, when we purchase into DVC, we buy a % ownership of a unit (as stated in our contract and title deed). This is represented by our annual point allotment. Thus, the total SALE points and the total annual POINT CHARTS are linked. For example, I have a CCV resale contract that represents 0.2867% of Unit 5C, which is 100 points. You can't endlessly raise the point costs for staying at CCV and still have my ownership represent 0.2867% because the sale points of a resort are supposed to represent every room being booked every day of the year. if the sale points are 5 million but they've raised point charts to 10 million for the year, that is not possible.

I'm not a timeshare lawyer, but there's just no way what Disney is saying can be true. My 100 points need to represent 0.2867% of my unit.

What is the email address we should all be using to send inquiries to Disney about the issues with the 2022 chart? PVB is the most obvious, but analysis of other resorts have shown a "slight increase" that most on these boards were willing to accept. But those answers above makes me think they are playing games and hoping no one notices (it's only 10,000 points more, for example, so "within reason" so owners will let us get away with it...); they just made a mistake with PVB that made it easier to see what was going on since the lock-offs aren't there to confuse people.

I used the feedback from on the DVC member website but never heard back. So I googled Terri Schultz’s email address and found a document that listed it. I gave it a try and she emailed me back directly, then had a call set up.

That is a good point about the % ownership that we all have. During the call this was so surprising to me that I was trying to think of something to say. I mentioned how if the points keep getting raised endlessly the staying power of my points keeps getting cut. My points staying power is already cut in the 2022 point chart. My 250 points will only get me 9 nights instead of 10. If it was offset by similar decreases elsewhere in the chart I would feel better but they are not. They didn’t really say much except that 2022 is just one of those years and part of the normal ebb and flow of a resort pattern

Ok so explain to me how you guys are figuring out the point discrepancy because I want to call them too. What are you adding exactly? I agree that the total number of points should not change. Dh says dvc needs a class action to put an end to this because they are obviously trying (and often succeeding) to slip this through to varying degrees every year.

Admittedly I don’t know how to calculate the totals. I used the numbers calculated by much smarter members such as @mdembko . Perhaps he can chime in. He had a great analysis of PVBs historical charts and the increase for 2022.

These were the numbers I used to express my concern:

2020 - 4,030,240 (adjusted for leap year)
2021 - 4,034,592
2022 - 4,055,620

Total points as outlined in the POS: 4,032,200. On the call one manager stated my numbers were “bang on” (except for 2020 but when I explained it was adjusted for the leap year they understood).

Further, on another site a user had calculated earlier year charts from date of opening and they were:
2016 - 4,036,832 (adjusted for leap year)
2017 - 4,032,500
2018 - 4,032,620
2019 - 4,032,320
I did not use those numbers in my original email but they do not seem to support the theory that 2022 is simply an “outlier” year. There has never been an increase of this margin before. Why now?

I think I will write a followup email now that I have had time to think and reflect. Surely what they said cannot be true. Either they didn’t know the “magic max number” offhand or they didn’t want to tell me that number. Either way I don’t see how telling me there IS NO NUMBER will make anyone feel any better.

 

[drusba]

Obviously what we have here is another example of the modern, anti-member DVC's belief that it can do anything it wants to do to harm members despite contractual provisions to the contrary. What they said on the call is directly contrary to the DVC Membership Agreement that is part of the POS, section 3.3 in the BWV Agreement (section numbers can differ among resort membership agreements).

That is the section that gives the DVCM the power to create point charts by establishing the Home Resort Vacation Points needed for each "Use Day" in "each Vacation Home." It states that the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points "will remain fixed and will always be symbolic of the Club Member's Ownership interest. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Homes during all Use Days in the condominium must always equal, and be symbolic of Ownership Interests owned by Club members in the Condominium."

It then gives DVCM the power to respond to changes in Use Day demand by making changes to the calendar year point chart by increasing or decreasing the Home Resort Vacation Point requirements for reservation of any given Use Day in a Vacation Home, up to a 20% change per Use Day per calendar year. However, any such "increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCM's right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days."

What they said on the phone is the opposite of the above, asserting DVC can make point increases for Use Days in a Vacation Home without making offsetting decreases. What I am hearing is the same ridiculous justification being made by the modern DVC when it tried to create 2020 point charts that raised studios and 1BRs year round: "DVC is not bound by its prior representations." DVCM, a fiduciary of the members, is improperly asserting it has the right to raise points as high as it wants so that members cannot fill the rooms for much of the year giving DVC the ability to increase Disney's profits by renting more rooms.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I used the feedback from on the DVC member website but never heard back. So I googled Terri Schultz’s email address and found a document that listed it. I gave it a try and she emailed me back directly, then had a call set up.

That is a good point about the % ownership that we all have. During the call this was so surprising to me that I was trying to think of something to say. I mentioned how if the points keep getting raised endlessly the staying power of my points keeps getting cut. My points staying power is already cut in the 2022 point chart. My 250 points will only get me 9 nights instead of 10. If it was offset by similar decreases elsewhere in the chart I would feel better but they are not. They didn’t really say much except that 2022 is just one of those years and part of the normal ebb and flow of a resort pattern



Admittedly I don’t know how to calculate the totals. I used the numbers calculated by much smarter members such as @mdembko . Perhaps he can chime in. He had a great analysis of PVBs historical charts and the increase for 2022.

These were the numbers I used to express my concern:

2020 - 4,030,240 (adjusted for leap year)
2021 - 4,034,592
2022 - 4,055,620

Total points as outlined in the POS: 4,032,200. On the call one manager stated my numbers were “bang on” (except for 2020 but when I explained it was adjusted for the leap year they understood).

Further, on another site a user had calculated earlier year charts from date of opening and they were:
2016 - 4,036,832 (adjusted for leap year)
2017 - 4,032,500
2018 - 4,032,620
2019 - 4,032,320
I did not use those numbers in my original email but they do not seem to support the theory that 2022 is simply an “outlier” year. There has never been an increase of this margin before. Why now?

I think I will write a followup email now that I have had time to think and reflect. Surely what they said cannot be true. Either they didn’t know the “magic max number” offhand or they didn’t want to tell me that number. Either way I don’t see how telling me there IS NO NUMBER will make anyone feel any better.

Thank you. Has anyone done the calculations for other resorts? We do not own at poly unfortunately. I can ask them about poly— and I will- but it they might shut me down as I am not an owner. We own at 5 other resorts. So yeah, we have a lot of points and this is NOT cool or acceptable period. They are literally devaluing our points. I like your idea of emailing Teri Schultz first.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Obviously what we have here is another example of the modern, anti-member DVC's belief that it can do anything it wants to do to harm members despite contractual provisions to the contrary. What they said on the call is directly contrary to the DVC Membership Agreement that is part of the POS, section 3.3 in the BWV Agreement (section numbers can differ among resort membership agreements).

That is the section that gives the DVCM the power to create point charts by establishing the Home Resort Vacation Points needed for each "Use Day" in "each Vacation Home." It states that the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points "will remain fixed and will always be symbolic of the Club Member's Ownership interest. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Homes during all Use Days in the condominium must always equal, and be symbolic of Ownership Interests owned by Club members in the Condominium."

It then gives DVCM the power to make changes to the calendar year point chart by increasing or decreasing the Home Resort Vacation Point requirements for reservation of any given Use Day in a Vacation Home, up to a 20% change per Use Day per calendar year. However, any such "increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCM's right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days."

What they said on the phone is the opposite of the above, asserting DVC can make point increases for Use Days in a Vacation Home without making offsetting decreases. What I am hearing is the same ridiculous justification being made by the modern DVC when it tried to create 2020 point charts that raised studios and 1BRs year round: "DVC is not bound by its prior representations." DVCM, a fiduciary of the members, is improperly asserting it has the right to raise points as high as it wants so that members cannot fill the rooms for much of the year giving DVC the ability to increase Disney's profits by renting more rooms.

This is really well put. Do you happen to know if the same language is in other resort POS documents? We do not own at BWV. I really cannot believe dvc told Minniemoo15 that they could just devalue points every year. Obviously, they have serious problems with management.