DVC plans to target commercial renters

[muppets3d]

Any modification of your reservation that involves changing the day of check-in is a cancel and re-book. That would end walking tomorrow and would probably end a lot of spec renting as well. There would be some collateral damage but the question is, would it be an acceptable amount of collateral damage?

 

[Sandisw]

Here's my proposal to (mostly) eliminate walking.

First, some existing rules to keep in mind:

• Member stays can be up to 30 nights long.
• Members can book at their home resort at 11 months.
• Members can book up to 7 nights at 11 months.
• At 11 months, members can add nights to their original 7-night stays, one night at a time. (This is how longer stays are booked at 11 months.)

Assuming the above rules do not change, I believe the following rules minimize walking:

• Only for a reservation booked at exactly 11 months, the check-in date cannot change by more than 6 nights unless the entire reservation is cancelled and rebooked.
• This restriction no longer applies once at least one night after the check-out date is available to be booked by other DVC members.

I believe this approach limits walking to a maximum of 6 nights.

Example:

I book December 1 to 8 (7 nights) at exactly 11 months. Each day after that, I add one night until I have December 1 to 15 booked (14 nights). I then modify my reservation to drop December 1 to 6 (6 nights), leaving me with a reservation from December 7 to December 15 (8 nights). However, I am not allowed to change the check-in date to later than December 7 (i.e. 6 nights after my original check-in date).

However, starting on December 16 (i.e. the day after my check-out date), I am allowed to make any modification I want to this reservation.

It is an option that DVC can institute to curb walking.

It still allows for short walks so not sure how it would be received by those who want all walking stopped.

Do we think Disney IT is capable of setting up the online system to prevent the dropping more of those initial days months later?

 

[tx911]

This actually sums up nicely what some have posted about both topics.

Those who can be identified as renting for a commercial purpose have definitely decided to use the walking loophole to their advantage.

Not all renters walk, and not all walkers are renters.

But again, it’s up to DVC to create the rules that don’t allow loopholes to exist in the first place.

Put it in the context of DVC ND owners who answer yes , if they are asked “are you a DVC owner” who is checking out when shopping at WDW.

They know the CMs intent is to determine if they are eligible for the discount and they know they are not but have said it’s the CMs job to be clear and not the owners.

And I believe that it is on DVC to make sure the program is running as intended and not the fault of owners who are using the system in the way it functions, even if it isn’t functioning the way it is was intended to function.

Using a loophole not perfect either.

DEFINITION FOR LOOPHOLE (1 OF 1)
noun

1. a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.
   

 

[Cyberc1978]

Any modification of your reservation that involves changing the day of check-in is a cancel and re-book. That would end walking tomorrow and would probably end a lot of spec renting as well. There would be some collateral damage but the question is, would it be an acceptable amount of collateral damage?

So if someone need to drop their first day for ANY reason at ANY time it’s a cancel and rebook?

 

[Sandisw]

Per Florida statute:

the managing entity [i.e. Disney] of a timeshare plan is authorized to manage the reservation and use of accommodations using those processes, analyses, procedures, and methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole to efficiently manage the timeshare plan and encourage the maximum use and enjoyment of the accommodations and other benefits made available through the timeshare plan​

This is why, for example, Disney could change Point Charts without membership approval (and a lot of members were really upset when October and November became more expensive).

The State of Florida already grants to Disney the authority to manage the reservation system using "methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole".

Disney does not need approval or to change the POS to modify how reservations are made, as long as they do so "in the best interests of the owners as a whole".

I get the impression that there are more members that dislike walking than like walking. Therefore, placing limits on walking are "in the best interests of the owners as a whole".

They do have that discretion. But they have to actually make the changes to the documents in the home resort rules and regulations to do it.

They can’t change the rules for booking and have limitations for it and not actually put it in the rules.

The DVC membership agreeement requires that. So, when we talk about limiting things, DVC has the ability to write HRR any way the want, as long as the one month advantage is maintained for home resort owners, and the rules for home resort bookings can not be different based on how you get your ownerships.

Right now, the HRR are not written to do what you suggest but they certainly can be changed

What they can’t do right now is penalize an owner because they “walked” when the rules didn’t alert an owner that a limitation to booking and/or canceling a reservation, which is currently defined as a minimum of one night.

It’s the same thing with renting…no one has ever suggested that DVC doesn’t had broad latitude when it comes to rules and regulations but any changes they do, must be communicated with the owner.

For renting, “pattern of rental activity”, while vague, is enough to alert members of what can be used.

 

[muppets3d]

So if someone need to drop their first day for ANY reason at ANY time it’s a cancel and rebook?

Yes, that's what I said. No matter what, rule changes to curb commercial renting and walking will have some collateral damage. The question is how can Disney design a system to limit if not stop these unwanted aspects of the program while minimizing collateral damage.

 

[muppets3d]

It may be that if we don't have commercial entities who own thousands of points programmatically walking limited room types all year long, walking by the membership at large will end or slow to a point it isn't an issue anymore. So it may be that all Disney has to do is get those turds out of the pool.

 

[Hubalorian]

We'd probably see resale prices for some resorts dropping, at least temporarily, when those contracts are unloaded.

Maybe, it depends how the contracts are structured if we are talking about 2-4000k points. A 500, 700, or 1k point contract probably wouldn’t hurt the price of 100/200 contract. If there were a bunch of 50-200 point contracts, then we’d see resale prices drop.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Yes, that's what I said. No matter what, rule changes to curb commercial renting and walking will have some collateral damage. The question is how can Disney design a system to limit if not stop these unwanted aspects of the program while minimizing collateral damage.

Remember any change has to be for the benefit of the membership as a whole. I would argue this would not.

 

[Sandisw]

Using a loophole not perfect either.

DEFINITION FOR LOOPHOLE (1 OF 1)
noun

1. a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.
   

The point was that it not the owner who created the loophole it is DVC and DVC needs to close it
if they don’t want people to use it or add the limation to doing it as the contract requires them to do.

That’s why we keep going back to both these subjects. It’s up to DVC to set the rules that mesh with the contract and then enforce them.

It’s the way the HRR are written that is the problem. Not the owners who are allowed to do things that the rules allow them to do.

Everyone agrees that walking changes the booking situation.,.the pushback is that DVC wrote rules that allow it and so DVC needs to fix it if they don’t want it to be part of it.

If they don’t fix it, it means they have decided it is an acceptable interpretation of the rules.

People can certainly believe that those that do it are wrong for doing it…but given that this has been going on for over 10 years or more, and not been closed, DVCs action suggest this falls within acceptable behavior in relation to those rules.

 

[muppets3d]

Remember any change has to be for the benefit of the membership as a whole. I would argue this would not.

For sure the biggest thing Disney can do to benefit the membership as a whole is end commercial renting. That has to be job #1.

 

[Nabas]

Yes, that's what I said. No matter what, rule changes to curb commercial renting and walking will have some collateral damage. The question is how can Disney design a system to limit if not stop these unwanted aspects of the program while minimizing collateral damage.

Disney already stated that they want to avoid unintended consequences.

Referring to those who need to make a legitimate reservation change after they can no longer walk a reservation as “collateral damage” seems harsh.

Walking is an 11-month problem. Disney should fix the 11-month problem, not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[walt34]

Using a loophole not perfect either.

It's hard to imagine a theoretical solution at booking time that wouldn't increase other problems. If any type of walking is removed to stop commercial renters, the focus for commercial renters would be to win the 8am game. How do you keep them from using automated processes to book at 0800 which will always be able to act more quickly than humans can? The rules can of course say these tools are illegal, but one can automate web site access in ways that are really hard to detect.

I believe it would be better to use other means to detect commercial rental patterns connected to accounts and go after the commercial renters directly.

 

[Nabas]

It's hard to imagine a theoretical solution at booking time that wouldn't increase other problems. If any type of walking is removed to stop commercial renters, the focus for commercial renters would be to win the 8am game. How do you keep them from using automated processes to book at 0800 which will always be able to act more quickly than humans can? The rules can of course say these tools are illegal, but one can automate web site access in ways that are really hard to detect.

I believe it would be better to use other means to detect commercial rental patterns connected to accounts and go after the commercial renters directly.

I agree.

The only way to stop commercial renters from winning the 8 AM game is to eliminate renting for commercial purposes.

 

[Judique]

Walkers don’t have an advantage, they have a guarantee. If DVC meant for walking to be ok, they wouldn’t sell fixed weeks. Fixed weeks are booked 12 months in advance, the only reservations allowed before 11 month FCFS. Except for walkers, they get theirs at any time after their use year begins and longer if they make a phone call. Why buy a fixed week and pay the premium when you can walk for free?



That’s what the contract guarantees. Anything else is a violation.

For the past week I've been trying to get a reservation at my two WDW home resorts. No walking for the last however many months some owners did it.

I started out with 2 nights at BCV. Eventually was able to get up to 4 nights as people dropped nights along the way.

Meanwhile I was also trying to book anything at BWV. With three room categories coming open with each search, you would think I might easily stumble into some success. Nope. I did get 1 night Boardwalk view and 1 night Garden but not consecutive. I also used my two waitlists to try to get dropped nights in each category that I already held a night for. Slow going and I know that if the nights don't come soon, it will be very difficult to get them in the future.

This morning I had a 3 way split stay with gaps. Still working diligently on it until I pressed check availability for Dec 5 this morning.
Imagine my shock, surprise and happiness when Garden/Pool view showed as available!!!

Quickly booked some nights. Then went back to cancel the 2 non matching nights and back to the G/P reservation to modify and add more nights to the new find/haul!

Still not finished as tomorrow I will have to 'walk' forward 1 day to accommodate my schedule better. But now I have my week and maybe I just add a day tomorrow and keep that starter night. Maybe I should just enjoy this week as 'there is no guarantee I'll ever get it again' over my final 17 years of point allocations.

My starter night cost 17 points and maybe the person who rents or the person actually looking to stay is a 50 point owner who couldn't afford an extra 7 points a night. Who knows other than Disney?

For this future year I will keep up on the Disboards, I'll enjoy my MMB and buy 24 extra points and I'll ignore the fact that I might get a GV room down by the tennis courts a hall's width away from someone paying 10 points a night while I pay 16 (17 on Fri/Sat) and we will both be looking at shrubbery. (I'll be asking for that room as it is close to the tennis court which is what pleases me.)

So, carry on - I'll be reading and every so often maybe thinking why are we putting so much energy into this?

 

[5kidsmommy]

Any modification of your reservation that involves changing the day of check-in is a cancel and re-book. That would end walking tomorrow and would probably end a lot of spec renting as well. There would be some collateral damage but the question is, would it be an acceptable amount of collateral damage?

This is what happens at Fort Wilderness during busy times specifically Halloween. You cannot modify your reservation at all, can't even add people to the reservation. They also banned third parties from bringing campers in except for the four that are Disney approved. It was rough for a few renters but in the end it made Fort wilderness less commercial, although at least one lawsuit is still ongoing.

 

[muppets3d]

Disney already stated that they want to avoid unintended consequences.

Referring to those who need to make a legitimate reservation change after they can no longer walk a reservation as “collateral damage” seems harsh.

Walking is an 11-month problem. Disney should fix the 11-month problem, not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I didn't mean to make it sound harsh. And none of us want to lose any of the flexibility we love with DVC. It makes the product stand out against many other timeshare products.

 

[Nabas]

If commercial renting went away, members would still walk - I would.

So renting won’t solve walking. If ie commercial renters was stopped, you honestly think that other members wouldn’t take their place?

Also there are few value rooms they will ALWAYS be difficult to get - walking or not. Same with standard view at BWV.

If Disney does nothing to address both commercial renters and walking, then both will only get worse.

Even if all commercial renters were eliminated, I suspect we eventually will reach a point in 5-10 years that most rooms are walked year-round.

Disney has already said they will address both - I'm sure they will.

 

[dunhill76]

You could say they are technically skirting the rules by using the system in a way in which allows them to secure a room prior to the 11 month (or 11 month+7) window of their intended stay, when it is supposed to be first come first serve at that 11 month window. But some people are being served before that window by putting in a fake start date to begin the reservation early.

It's like traveling in the NBA. It's technically against the rules, but the system isn't really set up to stop it. But they may call someone out if it is egregious.

Ha catching up with the thread and the traveling comparison killed me.

 

[lowlight]

For the past week I've been trying to get a reservation at my two WDW home resorts. No walking for the last however many months some owners did it.

I started out with 2 nights at BCV. Eventually was able to get up to 4 nights as people dropped nights along the way.

Meanwhile I was also trying to book anything at BWV. With three room categories coming open with each search, you would think I might easily stumble into some success. Nope. I did get 1 night Boardwalk view and 1 night Garden but not consecutive. I also used my two waitlists to try to get dropped nights in each category that I already held a night for. Slow going and I know that if the nights don't come soon, it will be very difficult to get them in the future.

This morning I had a 3 way split stay with gaps. Still working diligently on it until I pressed check availability for Dec 5 this morning.
Imagine my shock, surprise and happiness when Garden/Pool view showed as available!!!

Quickly booked some nights. Then went back to cancel the 2 non matching nights and back to the G/P reservation to modify and add more nights to the new find/haul!

Still not finished as tomorrow I will have to 'walk' forward 1 day to accommodate my schedule better. But now I have my week and maybe I just add a day tomorrow and keep that starter night. Maybe I should just enjoy this week as 'there is no guarantee I'll ever get it again' over my final 17 years off point allocations.

My starter night cost 17 points and maybe the person who rents or the person actually looking to stay is a 50 point owner who couldn't afford an extra 7 points a night. Who knows other than Disney?

For this future year I will keep up on the Disboards, I'll enjoy my MMB and buy 24 extra points and I'll ignore the fact that I might get a GV room down by the tennis courts a hall's width away from someone paying 10 points a night while I pay 16 (17 on Fri/Sat) and we will both be looking at shrubbery. (I'll be asking for that room as it is close to the tennis court which is what pleases me.)

So, carry on - I'll be reading and every so often maybe thinking why are we putting so much energy into this?

I’m glad you were able to make it work. I still haven’t gotten mine, piecing it together. I never had a chance. Hopefully you can shore it up tomorrow, it shouldn’t be this hard but that’s the DVC product as it stands.