DVC explanation of difference in Transportation budgets at BCV vs BWV

[PKS44]

For those who followed my concerns that BWV dues were too high when compared to BCV on the line item on the budget for transportation-

Here is the letter I wrote to DVC:

I am writing for clarification on the Operating Budget for the Boardwalk Villas. Particularly I am confused about the Transportation Budget. For 2004 the Boardwalk Villas Transportation Budget comes to over 19 cents per point, while the Beach Club Villas which as far as I can tell use the exact same transportation are paying less than 8 cents a point. In other words, when I am riding on the boat or bus sitting next to someone from the Beach Club Villas, I am paying almost 2 and a half times as much for the same transportation privileges. If the Boardwalk had more transportation than the Beach Club I would understand the discrepancy, but as far as I can tell all transportation is shared between the two resorts. I understand that the Beach Club is smaller, but this is a PER POINT difference. Given the fixed cost of transportation and the equal access to it, the cost per person at the larger resort (Boardwalk) should be LOWER, not higher. IN fact, since buses go to the Beach Club first, actually the Beach Club guests have already filled the bus before it ever gets to the Boardwalk, giving Boardwalk guests LESS transportation options than those at the Beach Club who pay less as well. I have never been very pleased with the Boardwalk transportation service anyway; to see that I appear to be overpaying for it is especially troubling. I would appreciate a more detailed explanation of the breakdown of the transportation budget at the DVC Epcot resorts.

The verbal (not written) explanation I got today is as follows. The UTILIZATION number that they use for the transportation is 58% used by BWV and 19% by BCV. Or that BWV uses transportation 3.2 x more than BCV...because it is bigger and has more guests...so the costs are divided up along these lines...this cost is then divided by the total points at each resort.
BUT the actual number of points that the resorts have is not 3.2 x more for BWV it is only 1.6 times the points. (4.8 million vs 3.0 million)---now how do 1.6 more points users end up using transportation 3.2 times more? They don't...but it is not that BWV is overpaying but that BCV owners are being subsidized by Yacht Club guests according to the finance guy I spoke with. the BCV is seen as a percentage of the Yacht AND Beach club not just the Beach club bus stop...and sorry BCV owners but that my not go on forever...they are looking at this. I am not sure I fully follow this but that is the answer I got.

Paul

 

[SleepyatDVC]

Good to know how they actually calculated the numbers.

Thanks for bringing this up with DVC and posting the update.

 

[Dean]

The explanation sounds ok to me. Rememer that YC/BC is a much larger resort than BWI so the participation from the BWI guests is minimal.

 

[PamOKW]

Thanks for looking into this. The explanation is sort of what I was trying to say way back -- that somehow the split of YB/BC/BCV gave BCV a smaller number.

 

[jaysue]

Thanks for posting

The one thing I get is that even if they assign more costs to BCV owners, BWV owners are not going to get a break

thanks
jaysue

 

[lenshanem]

So in other words BWV owners aren't going to get a break, but now that this has been brought to their attention BCV owners might get a bump up in dues?!? Wonderful...

 

[jarestel]

"we are looking into this..."

translation from business speak into english - "don't hold your breath waiting for a policy change, now go away and stop bothering me"

 

[TroyWDW]

The UTILIZATION number that they use for the transportation is 58% used by BWV and 19% by BCV.

Paul,

A big THANKS for taking the time to pursue this matter with DVC. It looks like our concerns were well founded.

Troy

 

[Terry S]

Hey Paul, I am counting on you to pay the difference in my dues when it changes!

 

[lenshanem]

If you pay Terry's you might as well pay mine, too!

 

[Simba's Mom]

Originally posted by jarestel
"we are looking into this..."

translation from business speak into english - "don't hold your breath waiting for a policy change, now go away and stop bothering me"

LOL!
Thanks for the day-brightener!

 

[PKS44]

I am still not convinced this all makes sense and is fair...Dean it is true that the BWI is small compared to the YC/BC but is the BWV+BWI number of guests 1.5 times the size of the YC+BC+BCV number of guests? Because that is how they are dividing the costs up..they are starting with an assumption that the BWV +BWI guests use the bus 1.5 times as much as the YC+BC+BCV so about $1.5 million fo BW bus stops and about $1 million for YC+BC+BCV stops (which is two bus stops I might add)...this is where I am doubtful....if it were true then the per point costs still ought to come out pretty close:

Example Two Families Charter a bus: The Smiths and the Jones. The Smiths have 30 people and the Jones are only 20. The Smiths pay 1.5 times the amount of money for the bus but the PER PERSON cost is the same....

by the same token when you get down to the PER POINT costs it ought to come out about the same and it does not-- which proves they are over estimating the utilization of the buses by BWV and sticking them with more cost..as if the Smiths (BW guests) are not really 30 they are may be only 22 or 25).

...I have a call in to my contact guy for more clarification of the utilization estimates.

 

[Terry S]

You mean all you savy BWV owners didn't sign the agreement that stated you wouldn't use the buses very much?? Maybe they only offered that to the BCV owners?

 

[DeeP]

I have only skimmed over this thread really fast so if I missed something forgive me, but if BWV/BWI are smaller than YC/BC/BCV--which I think BWV/BWI is much smaller, then that means less rooms and less guests, correct? So then how on earth do less guests use the buses 1.5% more than more guests at YC/BC/BCV????? I can't believe that many more guests at YC/BC/BCV drive their own cars vs BWV/BWI. Whenever I have stayed at YC/BC/BCV the guests waiting at the bus stops seemed to be equal or greater to the guests at BWV/BWI bus stop.
As a BWV owner I am also going to contact DVC regarding this, it just does not make sense and DVC's explanation makes even less sense!! I would encourage all BWV owners to also contact DVC regarding this, we might be overpaying and we might have been overpaying for years!
Paul, can you please share the address for DVC so that others can send a letter of concern also?

 

[Lisa P.]

It looks to me like you are pooling together the total number of guests at all the Epcot resorts and suggesting that BWV guests ought to pay to cover only the portion of transportation cost that they incur by usage. But it also looks to me as if Disney doesn't prorate it that way. This is just guesswork but it looks like this to me...

Many of the buses are shared by all of the resorts. For that number of bus route circuits driven, each individual resort would be responsible to pay its proportionate share, according to guest occupancy. Smaller resorts would pay less but the "per guest" cost would be equivalent.

Some bus route circuits are not shared among the resorts, particularly during high usage periods and for early entry. Each resort group would pay its own costs for these circuits. Smaller resorts would be more likely to run with partially empty buses, incurring a slightly higher "per guest" cost.

BWI/BWV utilize one boat dock at their resorts.
YC/BC/BCV utilize one boat dock at their resorts.
S/D utilize one boat dock at their resorts.
Therefore, each of these resort groups would collectively pay 1/3rd the costs of maintaining & operating that boat system. Again, the "per guest" cost is higher at a smaller resort.

I don't know if this kind of accounting is done. But it would make sense to me that a DVC resort connected to a smaller Disney hotel would pay more "per guest" and therefore, per point. It's kind of like VB owners paying more per point than projected (ex., for insurance) since VB didn't fully build out to the original resort size as planned.

 

[PamOKW]

I'm not sure if this will help but I took a look at the number of units involved. Of course, this doesn't account for differences in size of units and the folks using them but it should give a rough idea of the size differences.

Overall -- Boardwalk and Y&B combined is 2179 units.
BWI is 17% at 378 units
BWV is 18% at 383 units
YC is 29% at 630 units
BC is 27% at 583 units
BCV is 9% at 205 units

The Boardwalk complex is 761 units. The Y&B complex is 86% bigger with 1418 units.

The BWI and BWV are split almost 50/50 at 378 BWI units and 383 BWV units.

At the Y&B complex -- the YC is 44% at 630 units; the BC is 42% at 583 units and the BCV is 14% at 205 units.

A direct BWV to BCV comparison shows BWV is 87% larger with 383 units vs. 205 units at BCV.

I tend to agree with Lisa P that Disney probably charges each "resort" the same price which breaks down into higher costs at smaller resorts. If BW was charged $5,000 and its divided per unit that comes to $6.57. If Y&B is charged $5,000 and then divides it per unit it comes to $3.52 per unit. BW pays 87% more.

So, while BWV is bigger than BCV -- the total resort complex is much larger at Y&B.

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by PKS44
:
Example Two Families Charter a bus: The Smiths and the Jones. The Smiths have 30 people and the Jones are only 20. The Smiths pay 1.5 times the amount of money for the bus but the PER PERSON cost is the same....

I think the way Disney sees this is that the Smith family is charged $100 for their bus. The Jones family is charged $100 for their bus. The Smiths pay $3.33 per person. The Jones pay $5 per person. Both families (or resorts) pay the same amount for the bus. The per person cost is determined by the size of the family/resort.

 

[DebbieB]

Originally posted by PamOKW
I think the way Disney sees this is that the Smith family is charged $100 for their bus. The Jones family is charged $100 for their bus. The Smiths pay $3.33 per person. The Jones pay $5 per person. Both families (or resorts) pay the same amount for the bus. The per person cost is determined by the size of the family/resort.

But everyone does not get their own bus, it's the same bus. I could understand this analogy if BW had their own bus. We pay more and have to stand more often! Plus we have to sit through 4 stops on the way home (Swan, Dolphin, YC, BC).

 

[DeeP]

I can understand the theory of cost per guest so therefore BWV/BWI having less guests would then mean a higher amount charged per guest. However we do not know if this is the way the transportation costs are calculated and if they are then guests staying at the smaller WDW resorts are penalized? This does not make a lot of sense, IMO.
What I do not understand is how DVC can say a resort (BWV/BWI) that has substantially less guests than YC/BC/BCV could use the transportation 1.5% more! BWV/BWI has less guests, this has been established; yet the smaller number of guests are using the buses 1.5% more than the resort that has 657 MORE guests. That is almost double the amount of guests at BWV/BWI!

 

[TroyWDW]

The UTILIZATION number that they use for the transportation is 58% used by BWV and 19% by BCV.

It appears that the percentages given are not all from the same basis. One logical grouping would be as follows:

Boardwalk Group Resorts:
58% BWV
42% BWI (378 rooms**)
100% total (900 rooms total**) ($1.6 MM for transportation annually*)

Yacht Club Group Resorts:
19% BCV
42% YC (630 rooms**) [the % is a guess]
39% BC (583 rooms**) [the % is a guess]
100% Total (1497 rooms total**) ($1.2 MM for transportation annually*)

YC Group $2.20 per Room per Day (pRpD)
BW Group $4.87 per Room per Day (pRpD)

This analysis suggests there is still a discrepancy between the resorts that can't simply be explained as BCV being subsidized by the YC & BC. The Boardwalk Group (BWV & BWI) pays an estimated 120% more than the Yacht Club Group (YC & BC & BCV).

Note, the analysis also suggests that each resort is not charged a single common rate ($1.2 MM vs $1.6 MM).

Troy


Supporting Data and Calculations:

*Transporation Estimates
BW Group Trans Cost = $929,258 / 0.58 = $1.6 MM
YC Group Trans Cost = $238,756 / 0.19 = $1.2 MM
Source of the annual transportation costs are from the 2003 Annual Reports.

**Room Estimates
BW Group Room Basis = 378 rooms / 0.42 = 900 Total rooms
...(estimated BWV Rooms = 900 - 378 = 522 rooms)
...[there are 383 actual units] 522 / 383 = 136%
YC Group Room Basis = (630 + 583 rooms) / 0.81 = 1497 Total rooms
...(estimated BCV Rooms = 1497 - 630 - 583 = 284 rooms)
...[there are 205 actual units] 284 / 205 = 138%

Interestingly, both DVC room estimates are inflated by the same factor (136%). This might be an adjustment made for the larger units in DVC (i.e. 100 YC rooms don't equal 100 BCV units).

Source of the room counts are from Deb Wills website.

pRpD Estimates
YC Group pRpD= $1,200,000 / 1497 rooms / 365 days = $2.20
BW Group pRpD= $1,600,000 / 900 rooms / 365 days = $4.87