DUES Info! - All resorts dues have been released

[eticketplease]

OKW is actually a good SAP+ if you want cheap GV

It is cheap but it kills me that there are not 4 queen beds upstairs.
Every room at OKW except for that first one as you walk up the stairs that they could only put 2 full size beds!!

 

[eticketplease]

The dues eat up that initial buy savings real quick.

Yes I know neither I or @airjay75 would buy OKW as SAP but it was mentioning low upfront costs that is what I was pointing out.

 

[Chili327]

OKW is actually a good SAP+ if you want cheap GV

OKW is good to use points at for sure, but not the contract as SAP.

Wouldn't it be the reverse if you are thinking low upfront costs?
OKW esp 2042 is much less than SSR.

OKW is a pass for SAP for me too as those dues just continue to rise.

Agree, at over $10 for dues, not a good use for SAP (or SAP+)

 

[airjay75]

Wouldn't it be the reverse if you are thinking low upfront costs?
OKW esp 2042 is much less than SSR.

OKW is a pass for SAP for me too as those dues just continue to rise.

Yeah, I was more thinking that they are both low cost options relative to CCV/BLT/VGF/PVB in terms of upfront costs. OKW is definitely the cheaper upfront buy in compared to SSR, and I think we’re all on the same page about OKW not being a very good SAP choice with its dues and years left on the contract.

 

[DanCali]

So long as dues are less than Disney's rack rates, there will always be value in the contract.

I'd argue that is the dues are in the range of rental rates (which are much lower than rack rates), that's where things fall apart and resale values collapse. Why own when you can rent for less?

One would think that rental rates are correlated to increases in dues but it's also possible that, as dues increase, more owners will go the rental route and rental prices may be flat or go down down due to higher supply. Rental rates are about supply and demand - whatever the market will bear.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I'd argue that is the dues are in the range of rental rates (which are much lower than rack rates), that's where things fall apart and resale values collapse. Why own when you can rent for less?

One would think that rental rates are correlated to increases in dues but it's also possible that, as dues increase, more owners will go the rental route and rental prices may be flat or go down down due to higher supply. Rental rates are about supply and demand - whatever the market will bear.

There is a large percentage of people who are not comfortable renting points, there is an even bigger percentage that don't know renting points is a thing. I think DVC should be compared to rack rates w/ current discounts not renting.

 

[DanCali]

Happy Face	Sad Face
VGF	8.31
PVB	8.33
BLT	8.74
CCV	9.02
SSR	9.18
RIV	9.46
VGC	9.52
BWV	9.67
BRV	9.77
BCV	9.81
AKV	10.16
VDH	10.54
AUL	10.96
OKW	11.21
CFW	12.28
HHI	12.86
VB	14.89

Keeping the best contract a "secret"? (AULs)

 

[Chili327]

The thread that started it all..

https://www.disboards.com/threads/sap.3932280/

That was a fun trip down memory lane.

 

[DanCali]

There is a large percentage of people who are not comfortable renting points, there is an even bigger percentage that don't know renting points is a thing. I think DVC should be compared to rack rates w/ current discounts not renting.

True, but if someone is sophisticated enough to buy resale, they are probably also familiar with rentals. Empirical evidence with other developers (where many of the things you raise also hold) shows that there is not much resale value left once dues are similar to rental prices.

Maybe it happens if rental prices are a bit higher... maybe resale value is not completely zero... But can you realistically envision that, (as a general rule - not a New Year fixed week) if dues were $30/pt and rental prices were $25/pt people will pay much for a resale contract, even if rack rates were $60/pt? Would you?

 

[airjay75]

I'd argue that is the dues are in the range of rental rates (which are much lower than rack rates), that's where things fall apart and resale values collapse. Why own when you can rent for less?

One would think that rental rates are correlated to increases in dues but it's also possible that, as dues increase, more owners will go the rental route and rental prices may be flat or go down down due to higher supply. Rental rates are about supply and demand - whatever the market will bear.

It's funny because when I was typing up my earlier message, I think I originally typed "rack/rental rates" and then took rental out because I was thinking, well, they're sort of the same thing, right? Surely they're going to both move, over time, in the same direction, so I'll just say rack rates. But, as you point out, the rental rates have a supply/demand of their own that could theoretically keep them significantly lower than rack rates. I feel like it's a little hard to predict how things would play out in that situation (Would people sell, and then the rental rates go back up?). I think we can probably all agree, if dues are approaching rental rates, they're probably getting closer to rack rates too, and, as a result, we'd certainly see some decrease in the value of our contracts. I imagine some would still pay because of the flexibility that comes with owning, but that market would surely be smaller. And, as @VGCgroupie points out, there will probably always be a segment of DVC owners who could care less about rental rates either because of discomfort or lack of awareness and, for them, the comparison will always be against rack rates (assuming they're actually comparing anything in the first place ).

 

[DanCali]

Seriously though what’s VGF secret to staying so low?

Expensive points chart helps with keeping dues low (just one factor, but it matters)...

Consider a resort where it's 500-600 points on average to book a 2BR (e.g., VGF, PIT).

Then consider one where it's just ~300 points to book a 2BR (e.g., BCV, BWV).

Whatever maintenance fees you have at the resort to maintain that 2BR are getting spread over more points, so you get lower dues per point. That's just one of the reasons why VGF and PVB are below average cost and BCV and BWV are above average cost.

 

[zackiedawg]

I've been DVC for nearly 30 years and had no idea renting was a thing until a few years ago - or resale for that matter. I've never used either. It just never came into my field of view as I bought all my points at once and never added, or needed extras.

Worse for me are figuring out all the forum initials for everything! I have to stop and think for a few seconds sometimes when someone posts up a resort initial rather than typing it out...I see VGF, GCV, PVB, etc, it doesn't come right to mind sometimes. Then when OTHER things are initialed, I'm often lost. SAP? SAP+? GV?

 

[eticketplease]

I imagine some would still pay because of the flexibility that comes with owning, but that market would surely be smaller.

Count me in that camp.

As many times as I play the DVC Slots I can't risk having a renter try and switch things if I suddenly find availability.

BTW I am still waiting on my frequent player card @VGCgroupie

 

[VGCgroupie]

True, but if someone is sophisticated enough to buy resale, they are probably also familiar with rentals. Empirical evidence with other developers (where many of the things you raise also hold) shows that there is not much resale value left once dues are similar to rental prices.

I hope Disney would fare differently than the other timeshares. I think it would, but I could be wrong.

Maybe it happens if rental prices are a bit higher... maybe resale value is not completely zero... But can you realistically envision that, (as a general rule - not a New Year fixed week) if dues were $30/pt and rental prices were $25/pt people will pay much for a resale contract, even if rack rates were $60/pt? Would you?

I cant tell you how many times I went to Davids site to rent points but I could never bring myself to do it. There was too much uncertainty with it. So I always just paid the Disney rack rate premium for flexibility of booking right away and not waiting to be matched and for safety of cancellation. Renting points carries risk and most dont like to take risks just to go on vacation.

 

[eticketplease]

Worse for me are figuring out all the forum initials for everything! I have to stop and think for a few seconds sometimes when someone posts up a resort initial rather than typing it out...I see VGF, GCV, PVB, etc, it doesn't come right to mind sometimes. Then when OTHER things are initialed, I'm often lost. SAP? SAP+? GV?

Absolutely!! I have to think about these things too

 

[Carouselofplanning]

I've been DVC for nearly 30 years and had no idea renting was a thing until a few years ago - or resale for that matter. I've never used either. It just never came into my field of view as I bought all my points at once and never added, or needed extras.

Worse for me are figuring out all the forum initials for everything! I have to stop and think for a few seconds sometimes when someone posts up a resort initial rather than typing it out...I see VGF, GCV, PVB, etc, it doesn't come right to mind sometimes. Then when OTHER things are initialed, I'm often lost. SAP? SAP+? GV?

I believe Brian Noble has pointed this out to me in the past that the people on this board are in the vast minority of knowing all about and navigating through all of the DVC resale/rental stuff let alone its nuances. This post is Exhibit A that I am clearly mistaken, certainly an eye opener.
PS I’m with you on SAP+. No idea what the + is maybe it comes with free Disney +?

 

[VGCgroupie]

I believe Brian Noble has pointed this out to me in the past that the people on this board are in the vast minority of knowing all about and navigating through all of the DVC resale/rental stuff let alone its nuances. This post is Exhibit A that I am clearly mistaken, certainly an eye opener.
PS I’m with you on SAP+. No idea what the + is maybe it comes with free Disney +?

+ means its somewhere you'd actually like to stay. For instance my Aulani points. I love to stay at Aulani but I use those points to sleep around elsewhere due to their low overall cost (I own SUB) Ive stayed at BW, BC, BLT, CCV all on my Aulani points.

 

[Tatebeck]

SAP+ is more of like Swinger points instead of Sleep Around points.

You may not use them to Sleep Around all the time, but you have a home base you will always go back to, but may on occasion still want to venture out for some fun elsewhere

 

[VGCgroupie]

Come to think of it. Even as an owner now and knowing all the ins and outs. If I was low on points I would pay cash not rent.

 

[Mr_Woodchuck]

True, but if someone is sophisticated enough to buy resale,

I love it! now I'm sophisticated!