Dog Experts - Am I crazy for buying a CKC instead of an AKC puppy? UPDATE - New ?'s!!

[Wendy31]

About a week ago, I posted a thread asking about Shiba Inus. Well, since then, I've decided that a Shiba Inu is probably *not* the right puppy for our family. The possibility of the dog being aggressive toward our cat & possessive of toys/food/etc. had me worried. In addition to our 2 older children, we also have a younger child.

So, anyway, I kept researching and found the Keeshond breed. And fell in love! When they're puppies, they look like little bear cubs. When they're adults, they look wolfish/foxy. They're beautiful! Plus, they are excellent w/ kids & other pets. They've been bred strictly as companion dogs and are often used as therapy dogs. In fact, on 9/11, a Keeshond was used to comfort rescue workers. They're medium-sized. And are not smelly dogs.

I started searching for breeders. And I found a breeder I really like. The kennel is about 2 hours away from us, so we can go visit before we make our final decision. In addition, the puppies are hand-raised. Great references and testimonials. I was really impressed w/ the website.

However, the puppy is pretty pricey and is not AKC - just CKC. The mother is AKC, and the father is CKC.

I could probably find a Keeshond for less money... and maybe even a AKC registered one for less money. However, this particular breeder has a puppy that will be ready to join our family the week after we return from our beach vacation in June, which is exactly when we wanted one. Additionally, I just really like this breeder & the way she takes care of her puppies.

I do not plan to show our dog or have puppies. So, I'm not concerned that the puppy will be not be AKC registered.

I guess I'm just worried that the puppy is too expensive to not be AKC, if that makes sense.

But, if the puppy is ready when we need it to be ready, & is a good, well-bred puppy, should I be concerned?

Additionally, does anyone have any experience w/ Keeshond dogs? I've just totally fallen in love w/ the breed, and I'm so excited!!! From everything I read, it looks like the perfect dog for our family!! The only thing I'm concerned about is learning how to take properly groom it.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Jockaroo]

If the CKC is the Canadian Kennel Club, no problem. If it is the Continental Kennel Club, I personally would keep looking. People in the dog world refer to this registry as the CON Kennel Club. It is a sham registry designed for backyard breeders who have lost registration privileges with the AKC. It is also designed to provide "papers" for the designer mixed mutts. If you research this registry, you will find that people have registered everything from stuffed animals to frogs as purebred dogs for the ConKC.

Finding a quality purebred puppy takes time. For my current pup, I waited nearly a year from the time I was told of the planned breeding and placed on the puppy list until the puppy was in my home. Quality is worth waiting for.

Can you get a healthy, loving companion with a CKC registry? Yes, but know that the odds may be stacked against you. Many CKC dogs are not purebred and may be mixed with something else several generations back. Also, why would you pay more for a questionable registry dog than an AKC dog? This is the instant gratification these breeders prey on. Anyone can have a pretty web site and you may visit and see puppies in the home as a part of the front. The real breeding facility may be elsewhere. Ask if the breeder breeds "designer mixes"? how many litters are on the ground at one time? How many times has momma dog been bred? Quality breeders have very few litters, do not breed more than two breeds and never breed mixes. Breeders using the CKC rarely run genetic tests on the parents. You need to know what genetic problems your chosen breed can have and ask about health testing. Other common tests are orthopedic screenings (that can't be done until dogs are 2 years old), heart tests, eye tests. Parents should have current tests for brucellosis, a venereal disease.

I know you will have people come on the boards and tell you that their ConKC dog is the best thing in the world, healthy, happy, etc. It is your money and your new family member. Please make sure you investigate both the breeder and the reasons why many in the dog world don't hold the Continental Kennel Club in high esteem. Also know that AKC papers do not guarantee a healthy dog. It is basically a family tree tracing lineage. Good luck.

 

[Disneycrazy!!]

If the puppy is what you are looking for than go for it. I have seen CKC registered dogs, that were way better quality dogs than AKC dogs. I have also seen AKC papers forged ...the pups were not actually full blooded..they used papers from their 2 AKC dogs to falsely register the mutts.

 

[Wendy31]

Thanks for the replies!

This CKC is the ConKC, not the CanadianKC.

However, w/ this breeder, there seems to be a geniune love for the breed in general & for her dogs in particular. There's something about this breeder that I trust more than some others I've seen.

 

[Silly Little Pixie]

Thanks for the replies!

This CKC is the ConKC, not the CanadianKC.

However, w/ this breeder, there seems to be a geniune love for the breed in general & for her dogs in particular. There's something about this breeder that I trust more than some others I've seen.

The fact that the breeder is willing to place a puppy with you without having met you in person (or seeing you interact with the puppy) is a BIG red flag for me. As a PP stated, there's a lot to know about the breeder before even going to visit. WHY wouldn't they breed their dog to another AKC dog? What sort of health guarantees do they give? My Labrador was guaranteed for 12 months. Full money back if she turned out to be ill or have any genetic defects.

In addition, you should find out if they show their dogs. Having an ancestor that was, is not enough. You want a breeder who is breeding dogs to further the breed- not because they "love" this breed alone. My breeder was able to point out that my pup was going to be pet quality from about 4 weeks old. Her shoulders are slightly too far back which would be a fault. Her brother in the same litter, has gone on to be a grand champion. They look just alike to me!

My point is, what you are describing does not sound like a responsible breeder. It sounds like someone who is making a lot of money selling puppies and may not have a lot of knowledge about the breed. If even part of you is questioning it (and that's exactly why you're here!) then it's probably best to wait and find another breeder. Better to wait than get a subpar quality dog.

 

[Magic Mom]

Do you have experience with puppies? Even though a specific breed may have general personality traits associated with that breed, if you aren't careful with a puppy's training, even the "perfect" breed can learn aggression towards other pets and food/toy possessiveness. And poorly bred puppies are more likely to have those negative traits.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I wouldn't, if I were going to buy a puppy at all, I'd want it AKC. I thought you meant Canadian KC in which case I think that's fine, as long as you're going to Canada to get the dog.

As far as Keeshond, they're beautiful sweet dogs, or at least the ones I've met are, but that coat is an incredible amount of work. I couldn't imagine having to deal with that AND 3 kids, but that's just me. If grooming is a hobby you think you'd enjoy or you have disposable income to see a professional groomer a lot, then I think a Keeshond is a nice choice.

 

[Donna]

Also, this breed is in need of daily brushing and grooming. Unless you have the time for that, they will get matted and possibly need to have the coat shaved. Just so you know what you are getting in to.
I know you are looking for something full bred, but have you considered adopting a shelter dog? some of the best dogs can be found in shelters and you could also be saving a life. Just a thought! Good Luck!

 

[goofy4tink]

Thanks for the replies!

This CKC is the ConKC, not the CanadianKC.

However, w/ this breeder, there seems to be a geniune love for the breed in general & for her dogs in particular. There's something about this breeder that I trust more than some others I've seen.

See below......

The fact that the breeder is willing to place a puppy with you without having met you in person (or seeing you interact with the puppy) is a BIG red flag for me. As a PP stated, there's a lot to know about the breeder before even going to visit. WHY wouldn't they breed their dog to another AKC dog? What sort of health guarantees do they give? My Labrador was guaranteed for 12 months. Full money back if she turned out to be ill or have any genetic defects.

In addition, you should find out if they show their dogs. Having an ancestor that was, is not enough. You want a breeder who is breeding dogs to further the breed- not because they "love" this breed alone. My breeder was able to point out that my pup was going to be pet quality from about 4 weeks old. Her shoulders are slightly too far back which would be a fault. Her brother in the same litter, has gone on to be a grand champion. They look just alike to me!

My point is, what you are describing does not sound like a responsible breeder. It sounds like someone who is making a lot of money selling puppies and may not have a lot of knowledge about the breed. If even part of you is questioning it (and that's exactly why you're here!) then it's probably best to wait and find another breeder. Better to wait than get a subpar quality dog.

Have to agree. I have had mutts and loved them...actually the healtiest dogs I have ever owned. But when it was time to buy our golden retrievers, we researched breeders in our area. I called the golden rescue group, they gave me names of reputable breeders. We have had two different goldens, from two different breeders and very glad we used both of them. The first one moved to the midwest, so we had to go with a different breeder for our current golden.
Both times, we had to meet the breeders in person. They interviewed us.....both times we were told, when we picked up our pups, that if they hadn't liked us or had gotten any type of bad feelings, we wouldn't have gotten the pup. In fact, I heard from one friend, who I had given our breeder's name to, that they weren't able to get a dog from them...none available. But I happened to know that there were dogs available...and wasn't surprised at all that this person was told no dogs were available when they wanted one. They had flunked the interview process. I pretty much knew they would but didn't want to get into it with them so just gave them the breeders name.

What makes a good breeder? Someone who shows their dogs, someone who is all about bettering the breed as a whole. For instance....my current golden was sold to me when one of his testicles didn't descend. The breeder wanted to keep him to show him and then use him as a stud dog. BUT..that undescended testicle would have kept him out of the show ring and unable to stud. So, I got him. And part of my contract was that he be neutered. When he went in for his preop visit, I was told that that testicle has just 'dropped'. I called the breeder to tell her....she tried to convince me to not neuter him and to allow her to show him...we would still be his owners but she would show him. Nope, he went to the vet to get 'chopped'. But the wonderful thing was that if it hadn't dropped, his mother would have been prevented from further breeding due to his issues...it is genetic and once it shows up, good breeders stop breeding that dog. And this just wasnt' a 'breeding' girl...she was one of the top showing goldens in the country..so it would have been a very big deal to stop breeding her.

A good breeder will give you health records for eyes, hips, etc for that pups mom and dad. They will put into the contract that they get right of first refusal if you find you can't keep the dog. They are always there to help you out or give advice.

There is no way I would buy a dog from someone I hadn't met previously. My brother in law did that...bought a dog from a midwest breeder (got good recomendations evidently) and the puppy was shipped to them...midwest to NE. In my opinion, the dog has 'issues', but I keep that to myself. I want to meet the breeder, interview them, see their kennel area, meet the doggie mom...all before I buy a puppy. And I want the breeder to be intereviewing me as I am interviewing them. I want them to want their puppies in loving, caring homes. If they find a prospective owner isn't going to provide for the puppy the way they should, then there is no sale...even if it means losing that $1000 for that puppy.

And just because a pup is AKC papered means nothing. Easy enough to get. You want to see the backgrounds of both mom and dad..you want to see if they have been shown, how often mom has been bred. That sort of thing.

Nope, wouldn't be buying from your particular breeder. But others disagree.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

About a week ago, I posted a thread asking about Shiba Inus. Well, since then, I've decided that a Shiba Inu is probably *not* the right puppy for our family. The possibility of the dog being aggressive toward our cat & possessive of toys/food/etc. had me worried. In addition to our 2 older children, we also have a younger child.

Honestly, if you are "worried" about these things then you might not be ready for a dog.

I know you said you are a "cat person" and these things are something you are going to have to train with your dog about with any dog breed. They are dogs and need training, training, training.....

If you are a newbie to dogs, you might want to go and get an older dog that has been trained already and temperament tested.

I would not suggest a Keeshound for someone who is new to dog ownership. The level of care for the coat is enough to make anyone go nuts.

 

[goofy4tink]

Honestly, if you are "worried" about these things then you might not be ready for a dog.

I know you said you are a "cat person" and these things are something you are going to have to train with your dog about with any dog breed. They are dogs and need training, training, training.....

If you are a newbie to dogs, you might want to go and get an older dog that has been trained already and temperament tested.

I would not suggest a Keeshound for someone who is new to dog ownership. The level of care for the coat is enough to make anyone go nuts.

Thanks for that reminder. Every dog, every breed, can be capable of those actions. I have seen golden retrievers that are nasty when their food is touched, or they are bothered when eating. I have seen goldens snap when bothered by a child. There is no one breed that can promise an even tempered animal. All dogs need to be trained, and that training needs to be continued for their entire life. My 11 y/o golden still has to remain seated before I will feed him. And I continue to work with him on various things...just to keep him remembering what is expected.
Dogs are animals, they are not furry humans. they have certain behaviours that need to be understood.

If you have children, and are concerned about anything with a dog, then perhaps this is not the right time to get a dog. As I said, my dog is well trained. I can take food out of his mouth, I can drop a hot dog on the floor and he won't touch it if I tell him to 'leave it'. He will greet you but then go lie down. But...all this took constant training...as I said, I still work with him. A dog has got to be trustworthy to be in a household with children. My brother in law's dog??? Nope, wouldn't leave any child of mine in a room alone with him. It's a lot of hard work....and I don't much care what the breed is. I wanted a Rottweiler, but decided against it. Why? I am the alpha for my dog, the others in the family are softies. You can't have softies around with a Rottie....just won't work. I have been around Dobies that just laid there when someone dropped something on their heads. Reputation has it that those dogs should have jumped up and bitten the person who dropped the items on the dogs. But they didn't. Good, and consistent, training will tell everytime. If you don't have the inclination or intent to train your dog, don't get one.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Thanks for that reminder. Every dog, every breed, can be capable of those actions.

Yep. I think OP is reading the descriptions of the breeds thinking that they come with the dog like an accessory.

OP, everything you read about a breed is something you have to train the dog to do.

Dogs are WORK and at times drive you up the wall. I have a border collie mix and believe me, I am stalked at all times.

Except now...I get up let them out and then they go back to bed until I get back from dropping off dd at school. It is my only "dog free" time.

 

[goofy4tink]

Yep. I think OP is reading the descriptions of the breeds thinking that they come with the dog like an accessory.

OP, everything you read about a breed is something you have to train the dog to do.

Dogs are WORK and at times drive you up the wall. I have a border collie mix and believe me, I am stalked at all times.

Except now...I get up let them out and then they go back to bed until I get back from dropping off dd at school. It is my only "dog free" time.

Oh man...you're so right. At this time, we have two cats (used to be three a month ago, but one died) and a golden ret. We have always had at least one cat, one dog at the same time. And I'll be very honest here....I'm really looking forward to the time when we have 0 pets. We are currently on the 'zero pet replacement' policy. Most people don't understand the time committment and amount of work a dog is. You have to train it, you have to be there for it, you can't just walk out the door at 7am and not return until 7pm. Dogs are social creatures..they need their people.
When you travel, you either take the dog with you or kennel it...costly to say the least. There are vet bills. There are ticks...I am so over ticks!!! There is the grooming. The dog hair everywhere. We can no longer put our dark clothing down on any surface in our house...doesn't matter how often I vac or dust. Between the two cats and the 80 lb golden, we have hair everywhere.
Dogs need to be cleaned up after...be it in their pen, your back yard or out on the public walkways. Not the most pleasant activity in the world.

Yes, dogs are wonderful companions. And it's wonderful to have my 'shadow' sleeping at my feet. But, there are also negatives. And unless you are willing to make the sacrifices that are needed in order to successfully have a dog, then don't do it.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Us too. We do not want ANY pets. I love my dogs but I want to be free of hair, mud, puke, and the cost.

OMG, on the ticks. My border collie mix contracted "tick fever" (ehrlichiosis) and we are HOPING that she gets well. She is taking the meds and everything however it is not 100%. And if she gets bitten again by an infected tick, not good.

Granted we have 2 dogs but we just dropped about 500 for check up, shots, meds, tick stuff, heartworm, etc....Plus she had an allergic reaction (probably got stung by a wasp) and back to the vet, oh there is another 100.



Blah....

 

[airhead]

If the CKC is the Canadian Kennel Club, no problem. If it is the Continental Kennel Club, I personally would keep looking. People in the dog world refer to this registry as the CON Kennel Club. It is a sham registry designed for backyard breeders who have lost registration privileges with the AKC. It is also designed to provide "papers" for the designer mixed mutts. If you research this registry, you will find that people have registered everything from stuffed animals to frogs as purebred dogs for the ConKC.

Finding a quality purebred puppy takes time. For my current pup, I waited nearly a year from the time I was told of the planned breeding and placed on the puppy list until the puppy was in my home. Quality is worth waiting for.

Can you get a healthy, loving companion with a CKC registry? Yes, but know that the odds may be stacked against you. Many CKC dogs are not purebred and may be mixed with something else several generations back. Also, why would you pay more for a questionable registry dog than an AKC dog? This is the instant gratification these breeders prey on. Anyone can have a pretty web site and you may visit and see puppies in the home as a part of the front. The real breeding facility may be elsewhere. Ask if the breeder breeds "designer mixes"? how many litters are on the ground at one time? How many times has momma dog been bred? Quality breeders have very few litters, do not breed more than two breeds and never breed mixes. Breeders using the CKC rarely run genetic tests on the parents. You need to know what genetic problems your chosen breed can have and ask about health testing. Other common tests are orthopedic screenings (that can't be done until dogs are 2 years old), heart tests, eye tests. Parents should have current tests for brucellosis, a venereal disease.

I know you will have people come on the boards and tell you that their ConKC dog is the best thing in the world, healthy, happy, etc. It is your money and your new family member. Please make sure you investigate both the breeder and the reasons why many in the dog world don't hold the Continental Kennel Club in high esteem. Also know that AKC papers do not guarantee a healthy dog. It is basically a family tree tracing lineage. Good luck.

To the OP,Jockaroo has given you excellent advice. please take it.

 

[FredinFL]

Unless you want to show/breed the dog, who cares where you buy it from as long as it's healthy.

I think it's crazy to spend anywhere from hundred's to thousand's for pure breed anything when you can find an absolutely lovely mixed breed at the pound and bring them home for under $50. But that's just me.

 

[janey99]

I have seen these threads turn really ugly, because there is a big population of people who believe that dog sellers can be "reputable" just because they "love dogs" and have a good website. These people will always be at odds with those who believe that in order to be a reputable breeder, someone must only breed dogs that are in the ring and achieve champion status (sometimes in multiple venues), and be able to demonstrate this to a buyer for a time span reaching back several generations.

In my opinion, getting a puppy from a "show" breeder, even if it is "pet quality," is the way to go. Showing with sucess demonstrates that the dogs conform, over several generations, to the expected physical characteristics of the breed, and usually, the threads of temperament picked up lend themselves to extensive handling by people. Also, I believe that if a familial line demonstrates over several generations that it proves the physical characteristics of a breed, that it is more likely than not that that family line meets all the temperament characteristics desired in that breed, and general healthiness as well. On the other hand, I don't believe you get the same level of certainty from someone who breeds their b*tch because she's the sweetest dog ever, with the neighbor's male because he's good natured - they are starting at level one with assumptions, rather than level XX with some history to bear out any assumptions.

There are a lot of people who say this thinking is elitist and prevents people who don't have a lot of money from getting "purebred" dogs, but I'm not sure I agree this is true. I don't think picking a family member to be with you for 10-15 years is the place to cheap out, and additionally, I've seen ads in the paper for "designer breeds" like puggles and certain teacup breeds (and plenty other fashionable breeds) in which the asking price is two times what I paid for my dog, whose pedigree is outstanding and proven (she is "pet quality" because her coat happens to unfashionable at the moment). When I see things like that, it makes me think there are a lot of people out there getting ripped off becasue they don't know how to evaluate cost vs. value.

In and of itself, there is no problem locating and researching a breeder on the internet, but it must be followed up with personal meetings, so the buyer and the breeder can both conclude the other is legit and a good match, and by confirmation, by the potential buyer, of claims made by the breeder.

It can take a long time, as a PP mentioned. I researched waited almost a year before getting my dog. I researched, struck up an email correspondence with the breeder (while researching her as well through alternate means), waited for an insemination, was thrilled when it "took," was nervous when ultrasound revealed a smaller litter than expected, and then was crushed when the pups were born and there were fewer puppies than potential pet homes, and I was too far down the list. I kept up the correspondence and interest and was able to get my dog in the end because the breeder suddenly got a bad vibe from the person my puppy had been promised to. Now, almost a year later, I have regular correspondence with the breeder, have met her and the sire's owner at shows to cheer them on, and also have a good friendship with a woman who got one of the other pet puppies.

It can all start on the internet, but there is so much more involved to get to the point of being convinced a breeder is the right one for you.

Best of luck OP.

Jane

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Can we go back to Square One for a minute here?

I posted on your thread from last week and I'm unclear.

We can all probably help you better if you tell us (besides a dog being "cat like" or "bear like") WHY you want a dog and what you expect to get out of it?

We know you have cats and young children, and that you're worried about how a dog will interact with them.

We also know that puppies of any breed are lots of work (like having a new baby) and that any dog can bite, cause problems and generally be a nuisance if you don't work with it on things like training and exercise, etc.

Please don't take offense, but I'm wondering what your expectations are from a dog in the long term.

Breed, IMO, is going to be less important here than finding the RIGHT dog for you.

 

[airhead]

I have seen these threads turn really ugly, because there is a big population of people who believe that dog sellers can be "reputable" just because they "love dogs" and have a good website. These people will always be at odds with those who believe that in order to be a reputable breeder, someone must only breed dogs that are in the ring and achieve champion status (sometimes in multiple venues), and be able to demonstrate this to a buyer for a time span reaching back several generations.

In my opinion, getting a puppy from a "show" breeder, even if it is "pet quality," is the way to go. Showing with sucess demonstrates that the dogs conform, over several generations, to the expected physical characteristics of the breed, and usually, the threads of temperament picked up lend themselves to extensive handling by people. Also, I believe that if a familial line demonstrates over several generations that it proves the physical characteristics of a breed, that it is more likely than not that that family line meets all the temperament characteristics desired in that breed, and general healthiness as well. On the other hand, I don't believe you get the same level of certainty from someone who breeds their b*tch because she's the sweetest dog ever, with the neighbor's male because he's good natured - they are starting at level one with assumptions, rather than level XX with some history to bear out any assumptions.

There are a lot of people who say this thinking is elitist and prevents people who don't have a lot of money from getting "purebred" dogs, but I'm not sure I agree this is true. I don't think picking a family member to be with you for 10-15 years is the place to cheap out, and additionally, I've seen ads in the paper for "designer breeds" like puggles and certain teacup breeds (and plenty other fashionable breeds) in which the asking price is two times what I paid for my dog, whose pedigree is outstanding and proven (she is "pet quality" because her coat happens to unfashionable at the moment). When I see things like that, it makes me think there are a lot of people out there getting ripped off becasue they don't know how to evaluate cost vs. value.

In and of itself, there is no problem locating and researching a breeder on the internet, but it must be followed up with personal meetings, so the buyer and the breeder can both conclude the other is legit and a good match, and by confirmation, by the potential buyer, of claims made by the breeder.

It can take a long time, as a PP mentioned. I researched waited almost a year before getting my dog. I researched, struck up an email correspondence with the breeder (while researching her as well through alternate means), waited for an insemination, was thrilled when it "took," was nervous when ultrasound revealed a smaller litter than expected, and then was crushed when the pups were born and there were fewer puppies than potential pet homes, and I was too far down the list. I kept up the correspondence and interest and was able to get my dog in the end because the breeder suddenly got a bad vibe from the person my puppy had been promised to. Now, almost a year later, I have regular correspondence with the breeder, have met her and the sire's owner at shows to cheer them on, and also have a good friendship with a woman who got one of the other pet puppies.

It can all start on the internet, but there is so much more involved to get to the point of being convinced a breeder is the right one for you.

Best of luck OP.

Jane

Thank you Jane!

 

[Wendy31]

Well, geewhiz, ya'll!! This isn't really what I wanted to read!

I do realize (I was afraid of this when I posted this thread) that I seem a bit flaky when it comes to dogs after posting my Shiba Inu thread only a week earlier.

First, my experience w/ dogs - Admittedly, not alot. When I was very young, my parents had a boxer which they got rid of when he snapped at me. Later, they got my sister and me a cocker spaniel which they got rid of when he wouldn't leave my younger sister alone. After we were both older, we had a mixed breed dog which I really loved. My parents got rid of him when we moved to a house w/o a fenced back yard. Then Dad got a border collie from a friend at work which we kept for a while before we gave her to someone who had a farm. My mom is not an "inside animal" person. Even our various cats were outside cats. When I was about 16, my best friend & her family got a cocker spaniel puppy, and, whenever they went out of town, we kept her for them. It was my first experience having a dog inside our house.

DH & I got married in 4/1995, and we got a cat in 10/1995. We had originally gone to the humane society to look at the puppies. But this particular kittie purred in DH's arms, and that was that! She was a definitely rescue kittie - she had cigarette burns on her, and, to this day, she runs whenever we flip open a plastic garbage bag... we're thinking that maybe she was thrown out in a garbage bag. Anyway, she's been with us for almost 16 years. She's a cranky cat. But we love her. She's been with us through 3 different moves. Before we moved into our current house, we had to live w/ my parents for about a month before our house was ready because our other house had sold. And, during the time we lived w/ my parents, she had to stay outside. But she hung w/ us even in the confusion. However, she's not a "kid" cat at all. She just tolerates our kids.

DH grew up w/ dachshunds. But his mother is also a "no animals inside" person. About two years after we got married, we "rescued" a grown cocker spaniel from an elderly lady who could no longer keep her. This particular cocker was VERY rambunctious and completely untrained/unsocialized. I'm not sure what we were thinking. While Sadie came in our house every once in a while, she couldn't stay inside because she completely terrorized our cat. After our DD & DS were born, she couldn't be around them. She was just way too much dog for me to handle. However, we kept her until she passed away from old age. We also once rescued an abandoned puppy when we went camping. This puppy was so sweet! But something was wrong w/ her leg. I can't remember exactly what it was, but the vet said that even surgery wouldn't help. So we ended up having to have her put to sleep.

While I've said I'm a "cat person", I do like dogs. I'll always have a cat. In comparison to dogs, I like how cats take care of themselves! LOL! But I like the steady companionship of a dog.

Why do we want a dog now? Well, DH has wanted a dog for awhile. So have the 2 older kids. I want the kids to have a pet. I'm a sucker for movies like "Homeward Bound". I loved how there was a special relationship between each pet and their child. The scene where the golden retriever comes over the hill & runs to his boy's arms? It gets me every single time! I want our kids to have that kind of relationship w/ a pet.

We decided now would be a good time because our youngest is in the "puppy stages" himself. We have baby gates all over our house. He likes to take his diaper off, so there are pee accidents. He went through a stage where he chewed every single book on the shelf. He's still not sleeping through the night, and I'm having a horrible time weaning him. So I thought, instead of waiting until he's passed all this, why not get a puppy now... so they can go through the puppy stages together? LOL!

I've always like the bigger, steadier breeds - like German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Labs, even Saint Bernards. I also like Beagles. And I think the wolf-look breeds are gorgeous!

We want our dog to be an inside dog. And, honestly, I'm not a "romp in the yard" person. I like to take walks. But I'm not a rambunctious person. I like quiet. I don't let my kids get loud and crazy. I had always assumed we would get a golden retriever or a lab since they're supposed to be the best with kids. I still love the idea of a golden or a lab. But I'm not sure I'm ready for a golden or lab puppy. Also, they have the doggy smell. My DD doesn't like big dogs that jump. I'm afraid a lab would just bowl over our youngest.

I also don't prefer the small, yappy-type dogs. DH doesn't prefer the smaller lap dogs.

Additionally, I'm not great w/ the discipline-thing. I'm kind of a softie, and, if I'm being perfectly honest w/ myself, lazy too.

So I started researching. Someone here posted a link to the shiba inu puppy cam. Adorable! And when I 1st started researching the breed, I thought a shiba inu would be okay for us. I liked the "quirky" and independent personality. But I realized that a shiba inu wouldn't be a good dog for either our cat or our toddler.

I did some further research and found the Keeshond. Ad I've said, everything about the dog appeals to me. The only thing that concerns me is all that hair! From what I've read, it just requires a weekly brushing/grooming... which I think is doable.

I'm not taking get a dog likely. While I don't post a lot, I've been around the DIS for years - since 2005. I've learned I can't go to a pet store & that I need to find a reputable breeder. In fact, reading things other people have posted about dogs is probably why we don't yet have a dog! LOL! It's scared me too much!!

I've never purchased a dog before. Probably, if it were just me, I would be looking at adult rescue dogs. But I want my kids to have a puppy. I want the dog to be part of our family and live with us in our house. I want a sweet dog that wants to be around all 5 (6 including the cat) of us. I want a dog that's just as happy lying on the couch watching TV w/ me as he is wrestling w/ my DS and letting my DD brush his hair.

I know all kinds of people who have family dogs, and I know we shouldn't be acquiring a dog "because everybody else has one". However, I'm sure they didn't put as much thought into what kind of dog and from where as I have!

I really think a Keeshond is the right dog for us, all things considered. Again, the only thing I'm concerned about is the hair. I took everything into consideration I thought - our toddler, our cat, our daily lives, the type of dogs I like, the types of dogs DH likes, the types of dogs DD doesn't like...

The particular breeder I'm looking at raises Keeshonden. She seems sincere. She is probably best characterized as the "hobby breeder". Before we purchase, we're going to look at her puppies (& the mom & dad) next week. The price is high. But that actually makes my DH feel better... his philosophy is "you get what you pay for". The only thing that's making me question the price is that her price is almost as high an AKC puppy. She does not sell to everyone. She had questions for us too.

I know we could rescue a puppy from a shelter. But we've had bad luck when we've rescued dogs. I just want to know we've gotten the best puppy for our kids, you know?

I guess when I posted, I wanted everyone to say, "No! CKC puppies are great! No worries!" LOL! I guess now I'm asking... can a CKC puppy be just as a good as a AKC puppy? Is it worth paying a high price to get a good, wellbred puppy that is not AKC?

Okay, so, w/ all this... any more suggestions/comments/advice/critique? I really do appreciate everyone responding & I'm reading/considering everything being said.