Does your religion....

While we may not understand all the details, one thing is abundantly clear in the Bible. Faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation/God. Being a "good" person is not enough.
While the Bible makes it clear that being a good person is not enough, it certainlly does not say that Faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation/God.

Most Christians believe that there are other pathway - for infants who die for example.
 
Obviously a Christian is saved through faith, but these verses do not indicate it has to be faith alone. Indeed, James contradicts:

"Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. "

My understanding of James is we are saved by faith, but if that faith doesn't produce Godly works, it's not genuine.

Let me ask you this. If a person accepts Christ on their deathbed (similiar to the thief on the cross), are they saved? I say yes.

People's New Testament Commentary

http://www.studylight.org/com/pnt/view.cgi?book=jas&chapter=002

24. Ye see then, etc. The case of Abraham proves that the justifying faith is a working faith.

Justified by works. By a faith which showed itself in works. This is the argument of James, that faith is of no avail unless accompanied by works.

Matthew Henry's Commentary

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-con/view.cgi?book=jas&chapter=002

Faith is the root, good works are the fruits; and we must see to it that we have both. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it. There is no middle state. Every one must either live God's friend, or God's enemy. Living to God, as it is the consequence of faith, which justifies and will save, obliges us to do nothing against him, but every thing for him and to him.




It is in Mark:
Mark 27:32 "'Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.' Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him."

It's certainly possible they may have changed their minds in the hours they were hanging there. :confused3

oops, I didn't read far enough. Thanks for the correction.
 
While the Bible makes it clear that being a good person is not enough, it certainlly does not say that Faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation/God.

Most Christians believe that there are other pathway - for infants who die for example.

So what did Jesus mean here?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And this from Peter & John:

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


Infants don't have understanding of right/wrong, salvation, etc. They have not had the chance to make a decision for Christ. Therefore, IMO, they are exempt.
 

So what did Jesus mean here?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Exactly what he says - that Jesus is necessary. Not "faith in Jesus," Not "being a Christian," not "joining a church," not "saying a salvation prayer"

If Jesus wants to bring Druids and children and Old Testament Jews to God, that's His business. The Bible doesn't say He can't do it because they don't have "Faith in Jesus".

Infants don't have understanding of right/wrong, salvation, etc. They have not had the chance to make a decision for Christ. Therefore, IMO, they are exempt.

If there's an exception, then it can't be "abundantly clear" that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation/God. And if this exception (which isn't anywhere in the Bible) exists, how do we know there aren't other exceptions?
 
Let me ask you this. If a person accepts Christ on their deathbed (similiar to the thief on the cross), are they saved? I say yes.

Well, my personal opinion on being saved on your deathbed, honestly, comes from beliefs that have nothing to do with Christianity and are irrelevant to the discussion here.

Thinking back to when I was Catholic, I would say I hoped the person who was on his or her deathbed proclaiming belief in God was honest, that he or she had received Extreme Unction from a priest and God would take care of the rest. Perhaps this person had led a good life, but not "in Christ" and suddenly realized all that he or she had done came from God's love. Perhaps we are talking about a murderer on Death Row who had led a life of sin. I don't think I could tell you if either person would join Jesus in heaven, go to hell instead or have to spend time in Purgatory. I think any of those outcomes would depend on the person, and the sincerity of the acceptance of Jesus. So I couldn't say yes or no, because I'm not God and I couldn't know a random person's heart, nor what sins had been confessed to the priest and absolved.
 
Exactly what he says - that Jesus is necessary. Not "faith in Jesus," Not "being a Christian," not "joining a church," not "saying a salvation prayer"

If Jesus wants to bring Druids and children and Old Testament Jews to God, that's His business. The Bible doesn't say He can't do it because they don't have "Faith in Jesus".



If there's an exception, then it can't be "abundantly clear" that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation/God. And if this exception (which isn't anywhere in the Bible) exists, how do we know there aren't other exceptions?

So, do you believe in salvation for all, no matter what they believe? If so, how do you deal withese verses?

Romans 10:8-10

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.



John 3:16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Romans 3:21-23

Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 
Well, my personal opinion on being saved on your deathbed, honestly, comes from beliefs that have nothing to do with Christianity and are irrelevant to the discussion here.

Thinking back to when I was Catholic, I would say I hoped the person who was on his or her deathbed proclaiming belief in God was honest, that he or she had received Extreme Unction from a priest and God would take care of the rest. Perhaps this person had led a good life, but not "in Christ" and suddenly realized all that he or she had done came from God's love. Perhaps we are talking about a murderer on Death Row who had led a life of sin. I don't think I could tell you if either person would join Jesus in heaven, go to hell instead or have to spend time in Purgatory. I think any of those outcomes would depend on the person, and the sincerity of the acceptance of Jesus. So I couldn't say yes or no, because I'm not God and I couldn't know a random person's heart, nor what sins had been confessed to the priest and absolved.

Obviously, I was assuming their decision was genuine. Do you believe the thief on the cross went to heaven?
 
Obviously a Christian is saved through faith, but these verses do not indicate it has to be faith alone. Indeed, James contradicts:

"Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. "

Hi Laura! I read your post and thought I would add my thoughts. I love the story of Abraham. I so strive to have the deep faith that Abraham had. I believe it was faith alone that made Abraham righteous. Isaac was Abraham's only son and God knew how much Abraham loved and adored Isaac. Abraham's faith was so strong that he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. His faith was strong enough to trust that God would provide a way for his son Isaac. Abraham's faith was revealed through his actions/his willingness to trust God. For me, Abraham's actions were a direct result of his deep, undenying, surrender all faith. Abraham was justified/made worthy/ made righteous because of his faith. Abraham believed God ~ His faith in God alone made a way for his actions to be credited by God.
 
So, do you believe in salvation for all, no matter what they believe? If so, how do you deal withese verses?

No, I don't believe in salvation for all. I do believe God has spelled out one path for us to follow. The verses you quote show that path.

But when God spells out one path to follow, that doesn't mean there aren't others. I have no idea what the other paths are, or even if there are any left for people today. We do know there were other paths in the past (Enoch for instance). For whatever reason, God hasn't explained it to us.

I have respect for the Bible - which is why I sometimes get a bit picky when folks make claims about it that I don't believe to be true. The Bible spells out faith in Jesus as a path to God and salvation; I don't think it says that's the only path.

I have no idea if, for instance, the ancient Druids could find salvation. The Bible doesn't tell us.
 
I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you can't be a Catholic and believe that non-Christians can go to heaven.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized"

It is only MHO, but I do not believe that there are second chances after death. Personally, I think when anyone stands in judgement from God, they'll bow and say "There is a God" but it will be too late.

Since Grace is God's to give, I figure He can give it where He pleases, and who are we to judge? I don't think of God as a "gotcha" kind of guy who's going to pull the rug out from under a good person at the last second on a technicality like having been taught by his parents and community that God should be worshipped differently, and having otherwise lived a righteous life, cared for his family and his neighbors, and honored God in the way his people taught him to do so.

That's not to say that that's the Catholic position, just mine (and not contradicted by any priests in any discussion we've had on the topic). I do believe the official position of the Catholic Church is that God continues to honor the Old Testament Covenant with the Jews, so they're "in."
 
No, I don't believe in salvation for all. I do believe God has spelled out one path for us to follow. The verses you quote show that path.

But when God spells out one path to follow, that doesn't mean there aren't others. I have no idea what the other paths are, or even if there are any left for people today. We do know there were other paths in the past (Enoch for instance). For whatever reason, God hasn't explained it to us.

I have respect for the Bible - which is why I sometimes get a bit picky when folks make claims about it that I don't believe to be true. The Bible spells out faith in Jesus as a path to God and salvation; I don't think it says that's the only path.

I have no idea if, for instance, the ancient Druids could find salvation. The Bible doesn't tell us.

Well, obviously, I disagree. I just don't see how you can interpret this verse any other way.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
 
Well, obviously, I disagree. I just don't see how you can interpret this verse any other way.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
You've said you believe children can find salvation and God without having faith in Jesus. So how can that verse mean that faith in Jesus is necessary to find salvation and God?

That verse tells me that Jesus is necessary for salvation, not "faith in Jesus". Do you not see a distinction?
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized"



Since Grace is God's to give, I figure He can give it where He pleases, and who are we to judge? I don't think of God as a "gotcha" kind of guy who's going to pull the rug out from under a good person at the last second on a technicality like having been taught by his parents and community that God should be worshipped differently, and having otherwise lived a righteous life, cared for his family and his neighbors, and honored God in the way his people taught him to do so.

That's not to say that that's the Catholic position, just mine (and not contradicted by any priests in any discussion we've had on the topic). I do believe the official position of the Catholic Church is that God continues to honor the Old Testament Covenant with the Jews, so they're "in."


You are exactly right, he is not a "gotcha" kind of God, but He is a just God, and He has given us his laws through his Word ~ The Bible. What is a good person? What set of standards do we set up to determine who is good and who is not. Let's just say we use the Ten Commandments ~ has any one of us been able to keep all ten of those rules/standards/commandments. No, everyone at some time has committed at least one of them. So if that is the case, how can anyone be judged as "good." We are all unworthy and guilty of sin, but God made a way through his Son Jesus so we could be made worthy. He made a way for us so that we could be made righteous. Jesus suffered for the sins we commit, and God makes you righteous and gives you the gift of grace when you to come to Him through his Son.
 
I think God is God. I think there's one. And religions are just the way to get to God.

God is the center. There are many roads (religions) you can take to get to Him. I don't think any other religion is bad or false. I think those people choose a different road to get to God.

I am Catholic because that belief system works for me. I believe in God the way Catholicism says to, I find comfort and peace in the rituals and practices of my religion. I don't think being Catholic makes me "better" than any other person, nor do I think when I get to Heaven that God is up there going "OK, you're Catholic so come on in. Oh you...Mr.Hindu, sorry but you can't come in because you didn't believe in Me the Christian way".

I think God is truly inconceivable by our small, limited human brains.
 
I think God is God. I think there's one. And religions are just the way to get to God.

God is the center. There are many roads (religions) you can take to get to Him. I don't think any other religion is bad or false. I think those people choose a different road to get to God.

I am Catholic because that belief system works for me. I believe in God the way Catholicism says to, I find comfort and peace in the rituals and practices of my religion. I don't think being Catholic makes me "better" than any other person, nor do I think when I get to Heaven that God is up there going "OK, you're Catholic so come on in. Oh you...Mr.Hindu, sorry but you can't come in because you didn't believe in Me the Christian way".

I think God is truly inconceivable by our small, limited human brains.


WHat she said
 
You've said you believe children can find salvation and God without having faith in Jesus. So how can that verse mean that faith in Jesus is necessary to find salvation and God?



I did not say that. I said:

Infants don't have understanding of right/wrong, salvation, etc. They have not had the chance to make a decision for Christ. Therefore, IMO, they are exempt.

This is mere speculation, since Scripture doesn't specifically discuss infant salvation.

That verse tells me that Jesus is necessary for salvation, not "faith in Jesus". Do you not see a distinction?

No I don't. As a matter of fact, your statement makes no sense to me. I have no idea what you're saying here.

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."



Do you believe a person can ignore God/Jesus, & still be redeemed, still go to heaven? If not, what must a person do to be saved?
 
Obviously, I was assuming their decision was genuine. Do you believe the thief on the cross went to heaven?

Personally, I don't believe in hell, and I don't believe in the Bible, so I don't think the story is necessarily true. When I was a Catholic, I would have believed Jesus was telling the thief the truth when he said he was going to heaven. He was God, he would know, and he wouldn't lie.
 
That verse tells me that Jesus is necessary for salvation, not "faith in Jesus". Do you not see a distinction?

No I don't. As a matter of fact, your statement makes no sense to me. I have no idea what you're saying here.

Jesus is divine. "Faith in Jesus" in an act (or state) of a person. Two very different things.

The Bible tells us that only Jesus can bring people to God. It tells us that if we have faith, He will do so. But it doesn't say that the only people Jesus will bring to God are those that have Faith in Jesus.

If I can't explain the distinction I'm making here, we'll just have to disagree.

I'm sorry if misstated your beliefs on the ability of children who die in infancy to be brought to God and salvation without having faith in Jesus.
 
I've been absent from this thread for a while - other pressing matters requiring my attention - and I'm not sure how much more I'll be able to reply over the next while, even though I think the discussions have gone fairly well in general.

I had planned to reply to a couple of posts directed at me, and I'll apologize now for not being able to do so - instead, I will try to give a general response to the topic of salvation as this thread has currently shifted to that area.

I have a thesistic worldview. Although I tried, I could never reconcile a universe that existed of its own accord eternally. Each time I came back to the question of how or why existence itself came to be, I could never find a satisfactory answer for physical matter being its own originator. Even when I tried to consider energy being the cause of matter, I was stumped by the Law of the Conservation of Energy, and since Energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed, I was still left with the question of how/why energy originated.

On the other hand, considering the possibility of an eternal force of intelligence in (or, technically, prior to) the universe required less substantiation from a scientific perspective. A creative entity capable of forming the universe is not (nor should not be) subject to a dependence on material composition (matter or energy) in order to exist. A creative force of this nature, being utterly beyond the scope of limited human comprehension was (for me) the only recourse to answer how and why the universe came to be - and in terms of human understanding, an entity of this nature is best described as "God".

So, I now have a belief that God created the universe, and in doing so, set out to include in the creation human beings, creatures capable of rational thought and relational existence. I do not have the means to answer why God chose to do so.

Further, with my understanding of God being totally free of any constraints regarding time or physical elements, must exist in a manner that is not directly tangible to our temporal and material existence within His created universe. That does not mean, however, that God is excluded from being a part of the universe He created - as it is His creation, He can interact with it as much or as little as He chooses.

Further, a creator God of such magnitude (theoretically) wishing to interact directly with the material beings He chose to bring into existence, might best do so in a manner by which we can more easily interact with the divine - a being that contained the full measure of humanity and divinity simultaneously - Jesus Christ. This is why, as a person with a theistic worldview, I found myself drawn to the Christian expression of theism as opposed to other faith systems. It simply made the most sense to me, all things considered.

So, on to salvation.

For whatever reason, God chose to bring humanity into existence, but an existence tied to the material universe. God, by His own nature, would seem to exist beyond the limitations of the material universe.

If we believe that God created us as entities capable of relational existences, it does not seem to make sense that upon our material death, we lose any further possibility of continuing an existence that includes a relational aspect. To be able to continue in that way, it would seem to make sense that it would continue in an "afterlife" with the being who created us and intended us to be relational - God.

Therefore, if God created us as relational beings, and allows for the opportunity to become fully relational with Him after our mortal existence, how does He determine who does - and who does not - get this opportunity?

If we also assume that another component of our own existence is Free Will, we can clearly see this manifest itself in our relational existence - we choose, freely, who we will develop relationships with in this world. Even when someone want to have a relationship with us, we are capable of choosing to ignore that other person, and walk away.

If God wishes to enter a relationship with each of us, but will not go so far as to force the issue, then it is our choice as to whether we enter into that relationship with Him. For the Christian, this is done by embracing Jesus Christ, as God's most tangible expression of His love and presence in our physical universe.

But the final question is this - when does God decide that a person can no longer choose to enter into a relationship with the divine? Must that be done on earth, or is there one final opportunity when a mortal comes face to face with their Creator? If it is the latter, this works well with the C.S. Lewis concept that there is no one in Hell who didn't choose to be there - since Hell is complete alienation and separation from God, can this only be done upon coming face to face with the Divine and clearly saying, "I want nothing to do with you".

Personally, I do not think that Scripture (which is Divinely inspired and not Divinely dictated) gives us enough information to know this answer with certainty. This is my hope for humanity, that God will indeed give every opportunity to His creation to enter into a relationship with Him. It is also possible that in the moment of your last breath, you have passed the point of no return.

I don't know the answer, but when I consider the universe as I have described, I do have at least some hope that God's grace is limitless, up to the point of respecting the free will He gave us.
 


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