Does Walt Disney's alleged racist/anti-union history hurt your theme park experience?

[spidey_99]

Once my Disney obsession started kicking into high gear, I started reading everything about the man and the parks that I could get my hands on. Many of the bio's that were sanctioned by Disney were very scrubbed of any bad talk about Walt. Then came the others that were more "in depth" and claimed to tell us the true story, whatever that may be.

The man might have created a utopia of happiness that has lasted for years and will continue to last for years to come. He's created one of the most amazing empires. Nothing compares to it. Yet the man who created our beloved Disneyland, was not perfect himself and probably never claimed to be. He came from a different era, time and place. I'm sure some of the the things that have been written about him are true, but I believe that other things are not. History gets twisted around over time.

Did Walt say some things that could be looked upon as racist or not very politically correct? Was he a sexist? Possibly. Look at the era of that time. Being politically correct wasn't how most people lived their lives and treating women like objects especially in the work place was commen. But he respected women and many of them had very powerful positions in the company eventually. It doesn't mean that Walt was a bad man.

I read a story about how one of his most talented animators was found out to be gay. Back in the 30's this wasn't a good thing. Many people were wondering what should be done about the animator, whether or not to fire him. Seems he got into a bit of trouble and needed to be bailed out of jail. Walt's response was the he loved the animator, considered him to be a good friend and basically said it was none of anyones business. Walt bailed him out. Did he agree with his lifestyle? Who knows, but he showed compassion for one of his best workers and kept him on for years to come.

He was a man with flaws but also a man with compassion, but it has not once prevented me from loving all things Disney.

Thanks for the level headed, fair reply Zeitz. I did the same thing as you as my Disney obsession grew: started devouring information...and there is ALOT of it. And obviously, a lot of it contradicts.

Nice to see someone else who can still love Disney and appreciate all that the man and his company has done for the world but still not blindly defend every action he took, while at the same time not knee jerk and cast Walt as an outright villain.

Spidey

 

[LuLusApple]

Well look, as I said, I love the Disney brand so I'm not tryng to shove a view down anyone's throat. And I won't say this again but: the documentary is 6 parts, not just the link I provided. Being demanding and a task master is one thing...often times the only way to reach the sort of greatness the early Disney films achieved is thru pushing like crazy. But the later parts deal with Walt's alleged anti-Semitism, anti-woman, anti- African American ways and directly show Walt turning over his previous workers to the government during the McCrarthy witch hunts. Not saying this should change anyone's view at all. That is why I posted: to see what you all thought. But don't think the only thing Walt is accused of is being a demanding boss. It's got nothing to do with that.

Spidey

LOL that is not what I was eluding to at all.
Sometimes I wonder how we may move forward without knowing our past.
To answer your question-I cannot, you pose the question as fact, which truthful knowledge you have none, nor could; based on something you watched on YouTube.
I leave you with this......
"it behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that, in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things"
~Theodore Roosevelt
Bully

 

[Teki]

Ive only started to watch the documentary, but Ive seen these types of shows before. First I feel that footage of someone can be manipulated for good or evil and tht people who "worked with him" can say what every they feel you have to take it at face value. Second, Walt wasn't perfect obviously he wasn't a God or anything. However I feel he did a lot of good and what ever evil you might think hes done or whatever based on this documentary shouldn't it be out weighed by the good? People who make these documentarys are the same ones who love to burst bubbles and rain on parades.

In addition look at the times when Walt was alive. He wasnt the only racist and Disney wasnt the only company that discriminated. Comparing that time in history to now is not fair. You shouldnt let that be what turns you off of Disney I mean come one Walt's been gone a long long long time and they only take till now to create an African American princess? I don't think Walt was the only one.

 

[Krissy Marissy]

I agree with kerri....walt lived in a different world and different day than we did. Opinions he had were common then, does it make it right....no, but very widespread. I think it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. And that man that created so many wonderful things, had amazing ideas....was just human. And I think that is what makes it so neat...he was just a normal guy and look at all he accomplished. The american dream.

 

[Krissy Marissy]

So I watched this quote-unquote Documentary and I have to say that it is plays out like a conspiracy theory. They interview disgruntled workers who claim to have first hand knowledge of Walt's intentions and instead push rumors, gossip and hearsay. It's about as credible as a newsstand tabloid.

Walt Disney was the head of a corporation. He was an idea man who knew how to bring together the right talent to achieve his ideas. He was the P.T. Barnum of his generation. This larger than life persona got him lots of attention, both good and bad.

As for the comments by the former employees, all I have to say is this. When your paycheck isn't what you would like or you get fired (Even if it's your own fault) it's really easy to blaim the guy at the top and demonize him to somehow get revenge.

I'm no 'Kool Aid' drinker, and believe that no person is perfect, but if you are going to criticize someone, at least have some credible facts to go off of and not just put a spin on things in order to cause some mischief.

Very well said mike...as usual. ITA!

 

[Teki]

Ever study the real Abe Lincoln?

Point being, times change. He came from another era as did Walt. That doesn't take away their greatness in forward thinking it just proves how much farther we have come.
Thank goodness he was demanding and anal. Greatness isn't without fault.

couldn't have said it better

 

[Teki]

Well look, as I said, I love the Disney brand so I'm not tryng to shove a view down anyone's throat. And I won't say this again but: the documentary is 6 parts, not just the link I provided. Being demanding and a task master is one thing...often times the only way to reach the sort of greatness the early Disney films achieved is thru pushing like crazy. But the later parts deal with Walt's alleged anti-Semitism, anti-woman, anti- African American ways and directly show Walt turning over his previous workers to the government during the McCrarthy witch hunts. Not saying this should change anyone's view at all. That is why I posted: to see what you all thought. But don't think the only thing Walt is accused of is being a demanding boss. It's got nothing to do with that.

Spidey

Tell me who wasn't against women, Jews, or African Americans during this time period. Yes he was all of those things, but so was everyone else. People make mistakes he turned them in because he was peeved they went on strikes. Ive seen this information in other documentary's that were supposed to be Walt in a good light. No one can cover up his travistys, but I still think he did more good then bad. In addition there are other documentary with those same employees talking about what an amazing man he was.

I like what Walt did, I like that he provided jobs for hundreds of animators and that his company continues to provide jobs for sooo many Americans. I like what he turned animation into. He turned it into a true art. You may try and separate new Disney from Old, but he still founded this company and with out him there would be no new Disney.

I'm no kool aide drinker either, I know he did alot of bad, but I also know so did a lot of people in his time period, I also understand that every little mistake he ever made is under a microscope because of who he is. One documentary will not change my opinion good or bad Ive done a lot of research before forming my opinion.

I am not gonna say anything further about it as I know Ive posted twice now.

 

[Krissy Marissy]

I just went and watched it and I have to say I laughed. Some of these people crack me up. They act like things he was doing was sooo wrong and out of the ordinary lol yet they say themselves he was straight laced and to me, that meant he had morals. So what if he didn't want anything sexual in the office....I dont want that either. And as for firing the animators who drew mickey and minnie getting it on, I would have fired them on the spot too. lol

Bottom line, he was running a business. If people had the wrong idea of how it should have been run that is their fault. Until you are in a position of power and are in charge of running things you have no idea what it is like. Thanks OP for the laughs...

 

[spidey_99]

I just went and watched it and I have to say I laughed. Some of these people crack me up. They act like things he was doing was sooo wrong and out of the ordinary lol yet they say themselves he was straight laced and to me, that meant he had morals. So what if he didn't want anything sexual in the office....I dont want that either. And as for firing the animators who drew mickey and minnie getting it on, I would have fired them on the spot too. lol

Bottom line, he was running a business. If people had the wrong idea of how it should have been run that is their fault. Until you are in a position of power and are in charge of running things you have no idea what it is like. Thanks OP for the laughs...

Krissy, first off:

a- I DO run and OWN a business. A creative business, just like Walt. And instead of making cartoons, we make video games. It's not dissimilar from making a cartoon (and yes, I have made those too). So I think I can watch the docs from a position of some sort of knowledge of the stresses and challenges of making creative product. And because of that, I totally understand and even agree with Walt's tough ways. That is what it takes to make great products, be it a video game or classic cartoon or a freaking toaster.

b-I'm glad you got a laugh out of my post. But I was serious about it. And while you can single out the aspects of the video that you want to call ludicrous, that doesn't mean the ENTIRE video is a sham. For example, I think most would agree that Walt's anger at having his characters portrayed sexually was valid and it was a fair response...and I think we all agree that it was Walt's place to run his business in any way he saw fit (as long as it was legal)...I certainly didn't have an issue with that aspect of him in the doc, altho his response was a bit prudish for my tastes. But to post and act as if THAT issue was the crux of the issues I've already singled out (I never even mentioned the sexual stuff), is disrespectful to the post, the discussion, and simply wrong.

I've made it clear that the stuff that took me aback was his ALLEGED racism, working with the mob to try to push his workers out of the strike, and turning over folks to the government JUST because he was upset ((again ALLEGEDLY)) because they went on strike for better wages and credit (seems like a fair reason to strike to me, especially given how much they had contributed to Disney's profits).

As I've said in this thread, I don't hate Disney and I'm not here to bash the man. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't a major fan. I was just asking to get some facts from folks. But with the exception of a few level headed posts, most folks seem more interested in simply buying the Disney sanctioned version of the man, and that is fair. That is everyone's prerogative to do so.

But to act as if the doc is so CLEARLY one sided is a bit of a stretch. It may not be the information you want on a man you respect (I can appreciate that). And SOME of it may not be true and ALL of it MAY be purely manipulated to get a negative Disney agenda across. But just making a blanket statement that that is the case- when you've offered NO proof that the doc is slanted (and when the doc DOES show actual footage of Disney saying some POTENTIALLY incriminating things as well as mentioning probably easily checked facts ((i.e. his ties with the mobster would prob. not be too hard to track down some facts on)) )- shows me that YOU are the one who is providing the laughs in this thread, not my original post.

I'm pretty new to these boards but I get the sense that any discussion other than facts/info about the parks and RAH! RAH! DISNEY statements may not be welcome. And that is fair. I love Disney and I can conform to the decorum of the community because the RAH! RAH! DISNEY is a PART of me that I love. I am VERY Pro Disney and perhaps I should just- when I am here- make sure that that is the only flag I fly. I'm really not trying to upset folks.

Spidey

 

[pixiewings71]

Oh no Spidey, you're wrong about everything needing to be Rah Rah Disney! There are plenty of discussions here that are the opposite. Yes, the majority of us are major fans but we can also participate in discussion that would suggest the opposite.

Like I said in my first post, Walt lived in a different time period, things were very very different then so things he may have said and/or done would have been socially acceptable then but now they are not. I do believe he would have changed with the times (unlike my Gma who can't seem to get over it lol) and made sure that everyone he worked with had equal opportunity etc etc.

I do feel it's hard to believe in a documentary that is done without chance of rebuttal tho, and no I still have not watched it and I'm not planning to either.

 

[zeitzeuge]

Spidey, You have to realize that whe you come to a forum, there's going to be a huge mix of extremely rabid fans all the way down to those who like like Disneyland, but don't love/obsess over it. There's many different levels of obsession here on these boards.

I've learned the hard way when trying to open up a dialogue about various discussions. I'm all about fairly debating a topic, hearing all sides and views and hopefully, leaving with a sense of learning and broadening my horizons so to speak. I'm all about sharing of knowledge/ideas/opinions and taking from that what I agree with or not. It's what makes "debating" or discussing exciting for me. I feel all you are doing is opening up a dialogue and asking the question.

Unfortunately, when you open yourself up in a thread to a topic you will end up taking criticism directed towards YOU and not necessarily the topic in which you posted about. I've been berated, trashed and even called names on these forums only for the sole purpose of expressing an opinion or asking a question.

It's a fine balance, working these forums.

I completely understand where you're coming from. You wanted to hear peoples opinions about the true man Walt Disney was or wasn't and how much and to what extend we believe in any of these things and to also wonder if it affected how we view him, the company or the parks.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

If someone were to look solely at the title of this thread, they would instantly assume with some basis and justification that this was a topic designed to bash Walt Disney. The words real and nasty being associated with Walt Disney are going to cause such a reaction as we've seen here.

I've met people who personally knew and worked with Walt. They spoke very highly of the man. It is my belief that there are simply too many people who worked with Walt Disney personally and knew him well who have never made accusations against him. As I said before, I do not believe Walt was a saint, but I do believe that on the whole, he was a good man.

In the Neal Gabler biography of Walt Disney, Walt's daughter Diane had one major issue with the book. She thought it portrayed her mother inaccurately, but she believed it to be a fair portrayal of her father. She gave Gabler a lot of access because she wanted a more accurate portrayal of her father, warts and all than some of the company's saintly bios. And in the book, Gabler debunked several of the negative myths surrounding Walt that have come up in recent years.

 

[lntsmom]

You wanted to hear peoples opinions about the true man Walt Disney was or wasn't and how much and to what extend we believe in any of these things and to also wonder if it affected how we view him, the company or the parks.

Disagree! Anyone wanting to hear opinions would not use tabloid writing technique (am I the only one old enough to remember the term "yellow journalism"?) to start a dialogue.

Some come here wanting to start a dialogue. Others come to start fires.

 

[zeitzeuge]

Again, why does this tone need to be used by certain people? There are tactful ways of having an adult discussion/debate.

 

[spidey_99]

Disagree! Anyone wanting to hear opinions would not use tabloid writing technique (am I the only one old enough to remember the term "yellow journalism"?) to start a dialogue.

Some come here wanting to start a dialogue. Others come to start fires.

What tabloid writing are you referring to? I opened my OP saying I loved Disney and was a growing fan of the brand.

I imagine I could have put the word SUPPOSED or ALLEGED in the headline and for that, I acknowledge that mistake. But all it took was a read of the actual post to realize that I was not out there flame baiting.

Am I am missing something in terms of something I wrote that you would consider tabloid?

 

[Mike_M]

But to act as if the doc is so CLEARLY one sided is a bit of a stretch. It may not be the information you want on a man you respect (I can appreciate that). And SOME of it may not be true and ALL of it MAY be purely manipulated to get a negative Disney agenda across. But just making a blanket statement that that is the case- when you've offered NO proof that the doc is slanted (and when the doc DOES show actual footage of Disney saying some POTENTIALLY incriminating things as well as mentioning probably easily checked facts ((i.e. his ties with the mobster would prob. not be too hard to track down some facts on)) )- shows me that YOU are the one who is providing the laughs in this thread, not my original post.

Spidey,

It's pretty obvious that you are standing by this video (I won't call it a documentary anymore because of the reasons I've already discussed) but your tone is quite pushy and you appear eager to discredit rather than debate anyone's opinions if they don't share your belief that Walt's real nature was nasty. You need to accept that many of us find your source rubbish and no amount of convincing is going to change that. This is a pretty laid back forum an we've been fairly polite so far. They would not be as kind if you had posted this over at micechat.

I have to say, I think it is Naive to walk in the door of a forum and almost immediately start up a controversial topic and then fail to understand why people are not taking you or your stance seriously. For bold statements to hold value on any public forum, you need to have been around long enough for people to get to know you first and we don't know you yet. As far as we know, you could just be some guy that likes to lurk around forums and cause trouble for the fun of it.

This is primarily a Disneyparks vacation planning and info site. The Disney films themselves don't even get brought up that often around here and most of the events in your video take place before DL was even built. Your topic came from way out in left field and was a surprise to say the least. I have no problem debating this topic, but you seem to be stuck on the same point even it it gets directly addressed by someone and we can only go in circles so much. We are passionate about the parks and the legacy but we are not biographers or P.I.s and don't have much else to say about what anyone may or may not have been like behind closed doors. You posed the question so the burdon of proof is on your shoulders, not ours.

 

[nunzia]

I actually had no problem with how Spidey wrote his initial post (ok..the title was a bit out there)..and I've enjoyed the posts following..I also don't think I saw any replies that counted as Rah Rah. I think everyone has agreed that Walt was a regular guy with regular faults whose views were shaped by his era and upbringing. (and his wife used to work for the studio so I don't think they were treated badly or she wouldn't have married him ). I think we all also agree that he was a visionary and a genius (let's not forget Roy who allowed so much to actually get done).
I haven't seen any of Spidey's remarks as inflammatory. Hope this can continue to be a give and take and not turn into a youmeant..noIdidn't...yesyoudid...
thing.

 

[pixiewings71]

Spidey,

It's pretty obvious that you are standing by this video (I won't call it a documentary anymore because of the reasons I've already discussed) but your tone is quite pushy and you appear eager to discredit rather than debate anyone's opinions if they don't share your belief that Walt's real nature was nasty. You need to accept that many of us find your source rubbish and no amount of convincing is going to change that. This is a pretty laid back forum an we've been fairly polite so far. They would not be as kind if you had posted this over at micechat.

I have to say, I think it is Naive to walk in the door of a forum and almost immediately start up a controversial topic and then fail to understand why people are not taking you or your stance seriously. For bold statements to hold value on any public forum, you need to have been around long enough for people to get to know you first and we don't know you yet. As far as we know, you could just be some guy that likes to lurk around forums and cause trouble for the fun of it.

This is primarily a Disneyparks vacation planning and info site. The Disney films themselves don't even get brought up that often around here and most of the events in your video take place before DL was even built. Your topic came from way out in left field and was a surprise to say the least. I have no problem debating this topic, but you seem to be stuck on the same point even it it gets directly addressed by someone and we can only go in circles so much. We are passionate about the parks and the legacy but we are not biographers or P.I.s and don't have much else to say about what anyone may or may not have been like behind closed doors. You posed the question so the burdon of proof is on your shoulders, not ours.

I agree, and I would also like to agree that the title of this post is very inflammatory and it does sound as if you've made up your mind and would like to start a debate. I'm sure that's got a great deal to do with many of the replies you've received.

 

[spidey_99]

I agree, and I would also like to agree that the title of this post is very inflammatory and it does sound as if you've made up your mind and would like to start a debate. I'm sure that's got a great deal to do with many of the replies you've received.

Well as I said in an earlier post, I agree the thread title was inflammatory. It was unintentional (and if someone can show me how to edit it, I will happy to).

But if reading thru ANYTHING other than my thread title gives you the impression that my mind is made up and I am looking to debate versus become educated on the matter, then we're pretty much done here. There are only so many ways I can explain that I am not saying the man was a monster. Which is fine. It is what it is.

I will glady stick to asking about park openings and rope drops and DCA expansion info as it seems an actual discussion on the topic at hand is not to occur to my satisfaction or to many of yours.

No worries. I'm happy moving on. Let's do it together, shall we? And for those who offered insight, I appreciate it. Thanks.

Spidey

 

[Sleepless Knight]

To edit the title of your thread, go to the very first post, click edit, and then when the edit screen pops up, click advanced. Scroll up to the top of the post and that should allow you to change the thread name.