Does Walt Disney's alleged racist/anti-union history hurt your theme park experience?

[spidey_99]

I'm a Disney nut and the obsession has been (happily!) getting 'worse' since I've had kids (we go to the park every month or so), since I've been devouring the behind the scenes books I get at the theme parks, and since I've discovered this great community!

In my fandom, I'm been searching for info about Walt Disney and I came across this documentary on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA2hWgvZKo

It ain't pretty. And some of the most incriminating stuff comes right from Walt's mouth. A lot of the other bad stuff comes from folks who worked with Walt and were relaying things he was reported to have said to them.

And so IF this doc is to be believed, I'm really turned off to the man who was Walt Disney at this point.

And what I wonder is: has this happened to anyone else and has it affected your love of the Disney brand?

These days, it's impossible for me to associate the new Disney with the real Disney and for that I am grateful. The new Disney seems very much to be about diversity and teamwork and imagination and hope for the whole world, all races and types. The old Disney? If the doc is real, not so much. If the doc is real, I imagine Walt is rolling over in his cryo chamber over the casting of an African-American Disney Princess in The Princess and the Frog.

Also, if the documentary and all the research I've done on the parks and such show anything, it's that the vast majority of stuff we all love about Disney (Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Dumbo, etc) was created and lead by many other folks along with and/or instead of 'Uncle Walt'. And so with that knowledge, it keeps me from turning my back on the whole thing.

But I ain't gonna lie: if that documentary is true, the individual Walt Disney seems like someone whom I would not care to meet and whose work I would not care to support with my cash.

What do you guys think?

 

[AmericanItGirl]

The way I see it is that he's dead and while he may not be that great of a guy, he had some great ideas and created some wonderful stuff. It's a little like Quentin Tarantino. The guy's an absolute jerk, always bites the hand that feeds him, never gives a first thought to "the little guy," and quickly forgets his "real" friends once he's at the top. However, all that comes to mind for many when his name is mentioned is how brilliant a director he is in terms of Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs. Would I want to meet him? No. Would I boycott seeing his movies just because of who he is as a person? No, because a good movie is a good movie.

 

[nunzia]

I feel things can be interpreted differently and how nice it is that some people can make money off a legend who is dead and can no longer explain himself.
Yes, some of his thoughts may not of been PC today, and he was certainly a hard taskmakster, but take a look at the quality and longevity of what he set into motion. I'm always impressed at how many people worked with him amd respected him for many many years and stayed with him right up to the end. I have read many biographies on him and although I understand what a stuboorn and complicated person he was I will always see him as a genius and visionary who set into motion an entire new way of entertainment. Nothing can take away my respect of him.

 

[pixiewings71]

Walt lived in a different time period than we did, I would speculate that many of his opinions would have been changed as time passed or that he would changed his opinions as time passed. But, who knows if he would have, my Grandmother still has very "old" views and she is a bit younger than Walt would be, she is from the same area of the country tho so I can imagine what that bio implies.

ftr, I didn't watch it as I am not able to do that at work but I'm guessing much of what it says based on my experiences with my Gma, whom I love but she is very....outspoken and opinionated in her beliefs.

 

[Mike_M]

So I watched this quote-unquote Documentary and I have to say that it is plays out like a conspiracy theory. They interview disgruntled workers who claim to have first hand knowledge of Walt's intentions and instead push rumors, gossip and hearsay. It's about as credible as a newsstand tabloid.

Walt Disney was the head of a corporation. He was an idea man who knew how to bring together the right talent to achieve his ideas. He was the P.T. Barnum of his generation. This larger than life persona got him lots of attention, both good and bad.

As for the comments by the former employees, all I have to say is this. When your paycheck isn't what you would like or you get fired (Even if it's your own fault) it's really easy to blaim the guy at the top and demonize him to somehow get revenge.

I'm no 'Kool Aid' drinker, and believe that no person is perfect, but if you are going to criticize someone, at least have some credible facts to go off of and not just put a spin on things in order to cause some mischief.

 

[Stacerita]

So I watched this quote-unquote Documentary and I have to say that it is plays out like a conspiracy theory. They interview disgruntled workers who claim to have first hand knowledge of Walt's intentions and instead push rumors, gossip and hearsay. It's about as credible as a newsstand tabloid.

Walt Disney was the head of a corporation. He was an idea man who knew how to bring together the right talent to achieve his ideas. He was the P.T. Barnum of his generation. This larger than life persona got him lots of attention, both good and bad.

As for the comments by the former employees, all I have to say is this. When your paycheck isn't what you would like or you get fired (Even if it's your own fault) it's really easy to blaim the guy at the top and demonize him to somehow get revenge.

I'm no 'Kool Aid' drinker, and believe that no person is perfect, but if you are going to criticize someone, at least have some credible facts to go off of and not just put a spin on things in order to cause some mischief.

 

[spidey_99]

So I watched this quote-unquote Documentary and I have to say that it is plays out like a conspiracy theory. They interview disgruntled workers who claim to have first hand knowledge of Walt's intentions and instead push rumors, gossip and hearsay. It's about as credible as a newsstand tabloid.

Walt Disney was the head of a corporation. He was an idea man who knew how to bring together the right talent to achieve his ideas. He was the P.T. Barnum of his generation. This larger than life persona got him lots of attention, both good and bad.

As for the comments by the former employees, all I have to say is this. When your paycheck isn't what you would like or you get fired (Even if it's your own fault) it's really easy to blaim the guy at the top and demonize him to somehow get revenge.

I'm no 'Kool Aid' drinker, and believe that no person is perfect, but if you are going to criticize someone, at least have some credible facts to go off of and not just put a spin on things in order to cause some mischief.

Did you watch all 6 parts of the documentary?

I agree with you on some things, such as you never know who is really telling the truth in the he said/she said sort of thing. But the two things the documentary does show:

a- in regards to people saying things ABOUT Walt, true, you never know. But you do know that some of the facts seem to support the statements. You know that only women worked in INK AND PAINT for example.

b- In regards to things Walt said- which the documentary plainly shows- you know that Walt turned over folks who had worked for him in the past to the McCarthy witch hunts in the 50's...he called them Communists and had them blacklisted.

I am not saying Disney was a sinner or a saint. I am just saying the documentary made me think twice about the PR sanctioned view of Disney that has been sold to the public for many, many years. And to dismiss the documentary as pure conspiracy- or to claim that having something bad to say about someone else MUST mean you are bitter (versus simply having some knowledge about someone else that isn't flattering)- doesn't really hold up to logic. I am not saying that you are wrong about what you are suggesting but where are your facts- or even suggestion of facts- that these folks had a bone to pick with Walt (with the exception of the guy who was blacklisted by Disney, who had a very legitimate bone to pick with the man)?

 

[LuLusApple]

Ever study the real Abe Lincoln?

Point being, times change. He came from another era as did Walt. That doesn't take away their greatness in forward thinking it just proves how much farther we have come.
Thank goodness he was demanding and anal. Greatness isn't without fault.

 

[spidey_99]

Ever study the real Abe Lincoln?

Point being, times change. He came from another era as did Walt. That doesn't take away their greatness in forward thinking it just proves how much farther we have come.
Thank goodness he was demanding and anal. Greatness isn't without fault.

Well look, as I said, I love the Disney brand so I'm not tryng to shove a view down anyone's throat. And I won't say this again but: the documentary is 6 parts, not just the link I provided. Being demanding and a task master is one thing...often times the only way to reach the sort of greatness the early Disney films achieved is thru pushing like crazy. But the later parts deal with Walt's alleged anti-Semitism, anti-woman, anti- African American ways and directly show Walt turning over his previous workers to the government during the McCrarthy witch hunts. Not saying this should change anyone's view at all. That is why I posted: to see what you all thought. But don't think the only thing Walt is accused of is being a demanding boss. It's got nothing to do with that.

Spidey

 

[Mike_M]

Did you watch all 6 parts of the documentary?

Yes

a- in regards to people saying things ABOUT Walt, true, you never know. But you do know that some of the facts seem to support the statements. You know that only women worked in INK AND PAINT for example.

We are talking about the 1930's and 40s. We have the luxury of looking back and seeing how job discrimination was a very real thing but this is just looking at a fraction of the workforce in that era. There were hundreds of large corporations in that time that had certain roles for women and certain roles for men. I am not advocating that, just simply stating that attitudes were different back then among everyone, not just Walt Disney. A majority of "Professional" careers in the country were held by men. Women in the workplace were looked at more as wives trying to make supplemental income for their families or just making a little money until they got married. Again, this is just the way it was for everyone.

b- In regards to things Walt said- which the documentary plainly shows- you know that Walt turned over folks who had worked for him in the past to the McCarthy witch hunts in the 50's...he called them Communists and had them blacklisted.

Maybe he didn't like them. Maybe he thought they weren't good for Hollywood. Maybe he thought that the union system was a form of anti-capitalism that had strong supporters in communist circles. (As many people did back then) Maybe it was simply a chance to get even. Who knows for sure. Ultimately, the union leaders struck first and Walt struck back. Does it make him a demon? No, just human.

...I am not saying that you are wrong about what you are suggesting but where are your facts- or even suggestion of facts- that these folks had a bone to pick with Walt (with the exception of the guy who was blacklisted by Disney, who had a very legitimate bone to pick with the man)?

Actually from the documentary itself. Most (If not all) of the people interviewed said or implied that they participated in the strike. Bill Melendez (Who seemed to be the foundation of the documentary's "facts" and got the most screen time) left Disney right after the strike. Fired or quit, who knows but there was obviously no love there. Many of the people had stories from the picket lines which implies that the theme of this documentary would have been better described as Walt Disney vs. the Labor Unions (From the union's perspective).

...But the later parts deal with Walt's alleged anti-Semitism, anti-woman, anti- African American ways ...

One person saying she was fired when asked by a supervisor who was not Walt Disney what her background was (hearsay) does not make Walt Disney an Anti-Semite.

One person saying that Walt Disney fired an Indian man (Referred to as a Hindu in the documentary) because he was too dark (gossip) is not proof that Walt was a racist.

That is why I posted: to see what you all thought.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about the character of someone using a film as a base point, you need a better source first.

 

[Grumpy'sWife4Ever]

Well, I can't throw a rock without hitting an imperfect person (including myself) but I would be hard pressed to find another who has (albeit indirectly) brought so much joy into my life, the lives of my children, and of course countless others. I am never comfortable judging others for fear the microscope might land on ME one day so I'll just say that despite his imperfections, I am still a fan of Walt Disney and will remain to be so.

 

[Sherwin]

Whether Walt was bigoted or not is no concern of mine. What I mean to say that we cherish his work at the Disney company, not what said and believed outside the studio. After all, it is not Walt we believe in, per se, but his dream.

 

[alexandria674]

yes



we are talking about the 1930's and 40s. We have the luxury of looking back and seeing how job discrimination was a very real thing but this is just looking at a fraction of the workforce in that era. There were hundreds of large corporations in that time that had certain roles for women and certain roles for men. I am not advocating that, just simply stating that attitudes were different back then among everyone, not just walt disney. A majority of "professional" careers in the country were held by men. Women in the workplace were looked at more as wives trying to make supplemental income for their families or just making a little money until they got married. Again, this is just the way it was for everyone.



Maybe he didn't like them. maybe he thought they weren't good for hollywood. Maybe he thought that the union system was a form of anti-capitalism that had strong supporters in communist circles. (as many people did back then) maybe it was simply a chance to get even. Who knows for sure. Ultimately, the union leaders struck first and walt struck back. Does it make him a demon? No, just human.



Actually from the documentary itself. Most (if not all) of the people interviewed said or implied that they participated in the strike. Bill melendez (who seemed to be the foundation of the documentary's "facts" and got the most screen time) left disney right after the strike. Fired or quit, who knows but there was obviously no love there. Many of the people had stories from the picket lines which implies that the theme of this documentary would have been better described as walt disney vs. The labor unions (from the union's perspective).



One person saying she was fired when asked by a supervisor who was not walt disney what her background was (hearsay) does not make walt disney an anti-semite.

One person saying that walt disney fired an indian man (referred to as a hindu in the documentary) because he was too dark (gossip) is not proof that walt was a racist.


If you want to have an intelligent discussion about the character of someone using a film as a base point, you need a better source first.

ita.

By the way, I have found no evidence that Disney was racism but only assumptions. One things to learn..NEVER base your opinion from assumption but from hard facts.

 

[nunzia]

Did you watch all 6 parts of the documentary?

I agree with you on some things, such as you never know who is really telling the truth in the he said/she said sort of thing. But the two things the documentary does show:

a- in regards to people saying things ABOUT Walt, true, you never know. But you do know that some of the facts seem to support the statements. You know that only women worked in INK AND PAINT for example.

b- In regards to things Walt said- which the documentary plainly shows- you know that Walt turned over folks who had worked for him in the past to the McCarthy witch hunts in the 50's...he called them Communists and had them blacklisted.

I am not saying Disney was a sinner or a saint. I am just saying the documentary made me think twice about the PR sanctioned view of Disney that has been sold to the public for many, many years. And to dismiss the documentary as pure conspiracy- or to claim that having something bad to say about someone else MUST mean you are bitter (versus simply having some knowledge about someone else that isn't flattering)- doesn't really hold up to logic. I am not saying that you are wrong about what you are suggesting but where are your facts- or even suggestion of facts- that these folks had a bone to pick with Walt (with the exception of the guy who was blacklisted by Disney, who had a very legitimate bone to pick with the man)?

Just my .02 about those two items culled from much research (OK..so I'm a kinda Walt groupie)..The only having women at ink and paint was addressed as being done because women had smaller hands and lighter touch for the painting and clean up...makes sense.

The McCarthy era..I don't know about him acutally turning people in, but you have to remember that not everyone in that era who worried about communism was a nut..as we look back we can shake our head, but when people live in the thick of things, their views can be very different. Walt was a patriot, indeed, and if he leaned toward that red scare thing, well, who knows how we would have felt in his shoes..much has been written about his anger at his studio trying to unionize, but I can understand how he felt betrayed..logical no, but I really think he saw his employees as family and to him it was a betrayal. Don't forget the many kindnesses Walt bestowed on employees and their families..you can read about all those too.

He was from a different time and this current trend toward demonizing people who lived in a different era with different standards is showing our lack of understanding.
Can you imagine what Walt would do now with Miley Cyrus and all the sluttifying of the young girls? He requested that Annette Funicello not show her belly button in her beach movies since she was a Disney star and Walt wanted her to remain to that standard. Guess what? She complied out of respect to him.
For every person you can find who'd say a bad word about him, you can find one to say the opposite.
BTW..did you know Ub Iwerks GGS works at Imagineering? They had their differences too, but the family is still connected.

 

[lntsmom]

you came here, registered, hung around for a short time so everyone would get used to seeing your handle, then decided to move on to your real reason for joining: stirring up trouble on the board.

 

[spidey_99]

you came here, registered, hung around for a short time so everyone would get used to seeing your handle, then decided to move on to your real reason for joining: stirring up trouble on the board.

I can assume you are joking, yes? I don't see any or so I am assuming you are not?

I think in my original post I explained that one of the things that lead me to doing a search on the details of Walt - the man- was my growing love of all things Disney, a love that has been nurtured by being part of this great community.

I think my topic is a valid topic (at least for me as discovering that Walt Disney MAY not have been all roses did make the reconsider- but not change- my growing love of the Disney brand).

Spidey

 

[CinderALLIE]

No I didn't watch the Doco. Don't feel the need too. A bunch of disgruntled employees complaining about there ex-boss - big deal, you got fired. GET OVER IT!!

With fame comes a bunch of morons who try to bring you down.

Nothing Walt said or did would ever get in the way of my feelings for him.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

We actually know from many historical documents that were Communists in very high levels of the U.S. government, so it shouldn't shock anyone that there were Communists in Hollywood. And Walt wanted to stop them because he believed that Communism was a threat to the American way of life. He believed that they ruined his ultimate dreams for the studio with the strike. And so he chose to speak out against Communism because he believed it was the right thing to do.

As for anti-Semitism, I don't buy it one bit. Walt Disney did many things to help the U.S. win WWII, and made some incredible sacrifices at the Studio in order to help win that war. And last time I checked, Der Fuhrer's Farce is adamantly anti-Nazi. That said it is quite possible that Walt disliked some people who happened to be Jewish. He may have said some unkind things about them, but that doesn't make him anti-Semitic.

As for sexism, I don't buy that one either. Mary Blair did quite a bit of work for the Disney company including concept art on such beloved films as Cinderella, Peter Pan, and Alice in Wonderland. And when Walt decided to build Small World, he contacted Mary Blair, who had left the Studio, to get her influence on the attraction. And Alice Davis is a Disney Legend in her own right, like her husband Marc.

Now, for racism. I guess that old racist Walt cast a distinguished African-American actor to play Uncle Remus in Song of the South and treated him well. Walt even campaigned for the man to get an Oscar, which he did. The family of James Baskett spoke very highly of Walt. This does not mean that Walt didn't say unkind things about African-Americans. But in that time and era, it does not make him racist. And at least one African-American that I know of worked at the Studio when Walt was alive, and kept his job after some layoffs at the Studio.

Last time I checked there's only been one man who was perfect and that wasn't Walt Disney. But Walt Disney was a good man. Did he demand a lot from those who worked for him? Yes. Was he mean at times? Yes. Did he make mistakes at times? Yes. Was he unfair to people at times? Yes. But that does make him a horrible person. Rather it makes him human.

 

[prettyprincessbelle]

Last time I checked there's only been one man who was perfect and that wasn't Walt Disney. But Walt Disney was a good man. Did he demand a lot from those who worked for him? Yes. Was he mean at times? Yes. Did he make mistakes at times? Yes. Was he unfair to people at times? Yes. But that does make him a horrible person. Rather it makes him human.

Wonderfully said.

 

[zeitzeuge]

Once my Disney obsession started kicking into high gear, I started reading everything about the man and the parks that I could get my hands on. Many of the bio's that were sanctioned by Disney were very scrubbed of any bad talk about Walt. Then came the others that were more "in depth" and claimed to tell us the true story, whatever that may be.

The man might have created a utopia of happiness that has lasted for years and will continue to last for years to come. He's created one of the most amazing empires. Nothing compares to it. Yet the man who created our beloved Disneyland, was not perfect himself and probably never claimed to be. He came from a different era, time and place. I'm sure some of the the things that have been written about him are true, but I believe that other things are not. History gets twisted around over time.

Did Walt say some things that could be looked upon as racist or not very politically correct? Was he a sexist? Possibly. Look at the era of that time. Being politically correct wasn't how most people lived their lives and treating women like objects especially in the work place was commen. But he respected women and many of them had very powerful positions in the company eventually. It doesn't mean that Walt was a bad man.

I read a story about how one of his most talented animators was found out to be gay. Back in the 30's this wasn't a good thing. Many people were wondering what should be done about the animator, whether or not to fire him. Seems he got into a bit of trouble and needed to be bailed out of jail. Walt's response was the he loved the animator, considered him to be a good friend and basically said it was none of anyones business. Walt bailed him out. Did he agree with his lifestyle? Who knows, but he showed compassion for one of his best workers and kept him on for years to come.

He was a man with flaws but also a man with compassion, but it has not once prevented me from loving all things Disney.