Does marriage counseling ever work?

[Serena]

Missy, if you want my .02, find a counselor and go. It's a good step in the right direction. It may even help.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by missypie
Thanks everyone. I know that if we go to counseling DH will paint me as the most compulsive neat-nik in the world...of course, in my ideal world, the house would be perfect...but c'mon...I leave the house in the morning and there is a pair of pants or a video in the middle of the family room floor - I come back home 9 hours later - the pants/video haven't moved.

I really think he's either depressed or the laziest person on earth. The thing is, if I spend 30 minutes at the end of the day picking up, I can make a significant dent in the mess. That means that with 7 1/2 hours at home alone, he has not spent anywhere close to 30 minutes picking up.

I read a humorous article one time that said that the perfect household job for a man is unloading the dishwasher...it has a beginning and an end and there is no question as to what the task is. So I think some of it is male/female - him not seeing what needs to be done. But give me a break...doesn't everyone know that dirty clothes don't belong on the floor for an extended amount of time.

Of course there are other issues. I feel extremely taken advantage of.

Ladies with good jobs: Think long and hard about letting DH be a stay at home dad. Despite the positive press, I would not do it again.

Had to respond to this post. I have been through a very similar situaton early in my marriage, but it was about unfinished jobs with my husband (he works full time) but it still was about time-management, sharing responsibility and doing his part, so I can relate. I want you to read my post knowing that I am only throwing out possible scenarios, but I am not making a judgement on you personally. Just passing along a little of what I have learned through dealing with marital issues. Please do not take this as an insult to you or your husband. It is meant sincerely because I think you are in a crisis that I have dealt with (at leasr similar)

First, yes counselling can help, it did for us, bigtime. I think it saved our marriage. But, you have to decide if you are going to save the marriage or going to find someone to validate your being 'wronged'. That won't happen. Cousellors are not trained to blow sunshine up anyones butt. Solving marital problems takes hard work from both parties.

Second, I am wondering how you approach this issue with him? Exasperation, nagging, complaining, ridicule, disgust etc? Because if he is clinically depressed (sounds likely) your being disgusted with him just furthers his feelings of worthlessness. It's like a viscious cycle. He feels worthless and it gets in the way of how he handles life, his not handling life is making him feel worthless. Your criticism reminds him of how worthless he is and he cannot just pick himself up by the bootsraps and pull it together, which you are demanding (even without saying it). He becomes overwhelmed and cannot clearly plan his day. He may be sleeping (escaping) through a large part of it, while you are at work. If this is the case for him, he will find out through counselling that he really needs help. Help that you cannot give him and that he cannot give himself. If he is depressed, nothing will help until that issue is faced. If he shows the signs, check out any depression website, try to understand that he is struggling to stay above water everyday...literally. He really needs your compassion and support to deal with it.

Third, there are issues between the 2 of you that haven't been resolved, which will take sacrifice on your part (even though you probably are sure that you have given enough), what he may need from you is something you have been unwilling to give, or unaware of him needing. I mention this because people who are the 'wronged' party and initiate counselling sometimes think they play no part in the situation they are in, that the other person needs fixed, but they are fine. That is usually not true.

Fourth, Talk to him, honestly without attacking. Tell him you are sure this will not work without outside help, that even if he thinks you two are fine....you aren't.

Fifth, Kudos to you for being willing to try to work on it instead of just walking away. It really is worth it if you can learn to overcome the obstacles together. That is the reason anniversary cards and love songs mention "After all that we've been through" It is so cliche, but you WILL have a stronger relationship because of it.

I hope that you have read this in the tone it was meant. Sincerely and not meant to hurt or judge, but to convey that these situations have hope and can be overcome.

Good luck to you both,
wendy

 

[disykat]

It sounds like you've got a lot more going on than just a cleaning/cooking issue. IMO many of your issues - weight gain, differences of opinions about the housework and cleaning, etc. - happen in many marriages. They've certainly happened in mine.

I read a book, "Divorce Busters by Michelle Werner Davis", that helped me focus on more positive things about DH when we were having issues. (I also loved "the five love languages" someone suggested above.) She basically talks about focusing on changing your own attitudes first by focusing on the positive things in your spouse and even deciding that some issues you might just forgive as "a quirk" that you decide to live with. This is hard to do at the start when you're really angry, but gets easier as you see that your positive thinking actually causes changes in your spouse.

I know I'm being presumptuous, but I'll list some things you might be able to appreciate about your husband.

1) he is home to take care of sick children so you don't have to miss work and able to be "on call" at all times for this
2) he can take the kids to dentist appointments etc. so you don't have to miss work
3) he gets the kids off to school, welcomes them home, drives them around
4) he is trying to get in shape

You get the idea... the list isn't important - just that you start focusing on what he does do and letting him know you appreciate it. As he starts to feel better about your view of him, then he will start to care more about what you think. It sounds like right now he probably knows how frustrated you are with him and it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. It's great to be able to vent someplace safe like here, but I'm a big fan of Solution Based Therapy so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about a possible way to start solving the problem.

 

[poohandwendy]

So back to my original question: Would marriage counseling help, or would the counselor tell me to live with the mess and be glad my kids have a good dad (albeit a dad who is setting a TERRIBLE example re cleanliness and nutrition)?

It is not that simple. Marriage counselling will show you both how you are affecting eachother. And help guide you into a more healthy way of handling disagreements. They aren't going to say what should be done or shouldn't. They don't play the 'blame' game. They try to show you how destructive that game is.

 

[poohandwendy]

Just a few more thoughts after rereading your posts...

These are some things you have said here...

"If I were giving him a job evaluation, he'd fail and be fired."

"I really think he's either depressed or the laziest person on earth."

"all I can do is wonder what he did all day!!!"

"gee, I'd like a job where I was off from 7:30-3:30 and worked from 3:30 to 6."

"He does very little work and has gained 40 poinds since we were married...What woman wouldn't be driven wild with desire?"
"I want him to lose weight, keep the house tidy and cook a decent meal at least every other night. He doesn't have to get a job."

"An unshaven guy in baggy sweatpants and a t-shirt, with breasts and 3 chins, telling the doctor that his wife isn't turned on by him anymore...it could be a cartoon!"

"albeit a dad who is setting a TERRIBLE example re cleanliness and nutrition)?"

If I were hearing these sort of things about myself...I would hear "You are a fat, unappealing, unproductive, lazy, failure who is not good enough and a bad example to your children"

Where is the incentive? Why would I want to please someone who thinks so little of me? What do I do that is right? Do I have any redeeming qualities at all?

If you are giving out the same vibe as I feel on this thread, he probably has a few of his own resentments. I am not saying that he doesn't do what you are saying, but if your are communicating all of the above....he really has no good reason to want to change. Heck, if my husband gave me the impression that he felt that way about me, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with him let alone bend over backwards to please him. Just food for thought.

 

[battricia]

I completely agree, poo and wendy. and I know how it feels to be depressed about things similar to this, if I were in his position I'd be completely unmotivated to do anything also. And aside from that, first you say he's gained weight and is lazy, then you say he works out 3 times a week. You say 'what could he be doing all day' Then you say he works out, reads to children at school, and drives your kids around to their activities. It's always easy to think someone's not doing anything all day when you don't actually see it, and I realized this when I went away to college. At the time, I was leaving for school @ 730am. at school until 345, at work @ 5pm, until 10 or so. One night I came home, and my dad had called a few times. He called back once I got home and said 'where have you been all day, I've been trying to call you'. Mind you it was not an emergency that he was trying to reach me for, just wanting to say hi and see what was up. It was then that I realized that many people have the whole 'out of site out of mind' kind of syndrom. My dad thought that since he doesn't see me leaving in the morning or out during the day at work, (Since I moved out of the house) that I must just be sitting around all day waiting for someone to call me and have a chat! I did actually do things!! big surprise to him! And your husband sounds like he's out doing things as well, and maybe you're just not seeing it because you're so focused on your work, or something like that. I think many others have said it best, just be prepared that your husband isn't the only one that might need work, if you go to the counselor.

tricia.

 

[darrose]

Why now after apx. 10 years is his never cleaning bugging you?
Have you fallen out of love with your hubby?
Why does the 40 pounds have you not making love with him? Isnt he the same person just heavier or has his personnality changed?
Do you want a divorce? If you do get divorced wouldnt you still
have to clean and cook?
Does he have a job? i.e. does he work from home?

 

[missypie]

poohandwendy, you've pretty much summed up how I feel about my DH. His behavoir has changed my feelings about him. Let's use an analogy: You and your best friend in the world are told that you have to haul 10,000 bricks from point A to point B every day or you will face a stiff penalty. The first day she hauls 4000 bricks and you haul 6000. Later, she's down to 2000, then 200 then 50 (meaning you haul 9500). She refuses to do more, but you don't want to face the penalty, so you haul the 9500 bricks every day. How would you feel about your best friend? While you are doing all the heavy lifitng, would you be remembering how much fun you had at summer camp together, or how she really stuck by you in 7th grade, or how cool it was when you were pregnant at the same time? Or would resentment be building up all day every day?

 

[missypie]

darrose, he has been home for over 13 years. The youngest has been in school for 3 years. The mess and lack of food always bothered me, but I knew he was playing with the kids at home and that that was more important. But now he has from 7:30 am to 3:15 pm, 5 days a week, totally to himself (that's over 36 hours) and it's obvious that he doesn't even spend a third of that time on household chores. If he spend HALF that time on the house and meals, the house would be clean and we'd have great meals. That would leave 18 hours a week - over 3 1/2 hours a day - to do whatever he wanted. It sounds like paradise to me to have 3 1/2 hours a day to do whatever I want. But yet, he seems to think he should have more like 7 hours a day to do whatever...

 

[darrose]

I was just trying to understand the resentment.
It sounds like you feel the relationship has never been 50 50.
So maybe he doesnt know how resentful you now are. Talk to him, maybe even show him these discussions, the marriage counselor is a great idea. Good luck!!!
p.s. Dont forget to give him bonus points for working out, taking excellant care of the kids, etc.

As a side note: I am so thankful that my hubby hasnt had the idea of counting up all my free hours and comparing it to what meals I should be cooking and how the house should look
each week

 

[missypie]

I guess I must just be wrong to think there must be some degree of fairness. To all of the SAHMs out there, if your DH came home from work and said, "The 8 hours a day I work just doesn't leave me enough free time. From now on I'm only going to work 4 and take a 50% cut in pay...", would you be supportive of that?

 

[darrose]

What I am tying to say is HE might think that he is doing a lot for his family. It might be about goals and expectations. For example,
he might be viewing the marriage like this
MAYBE you have been able to advance so far in your career because he was the one who stayed home with the kids., you didnt have to take sick days when the kids where sick, etc.
MAYBE he starting working out because you are so upset with his weight gain and feels that should not count as part of his free time allotment,
MAYBE he feels he is doing his share.
Thats why you have to tell him about your resentment. Dont hint around. Tell him!!!

 

[missypie]

Believe me, I explode about 4 times a year. I've tried calm and rational; I've tried blunt; I've tried "it isn't fair"; I've tried temper.

Is there anyone out there who, in the secrecy of a message board, will admit that they are plain lazy - not depressed, but really just preferring to let others do as much of the work as possible? If so, is it hard to live with yourself, or do you secretly feel good for getting others to do most of the work while you do very little?

Maybe it's our Judeo/Christian work ethic, but lazy seems to be one of the worst things you can call someone in America.

 

[sue1013]

Missypie you are not wrong to feel there should be some fairness. Marriage is a partnership while not always 50/50 (only in an ideal world) I believe it should be close. When my kids were young before school age I was SAHM. At that time I took care of kids, house and meals, DH worked at least 8 hrs more often 10-12 hrs a day. I would never expect him to come home and have to clean or cook when I was home all day. Once the kids were both in school all day I went back to work. At that time things had to change DH had to split household chores. All the work of kids and household plus full time job should not be put on only one. DH does not see what needs to be done and do it (like most males). What works for us is the list. For some reason if its written down he will do that load of laundry if he just sees the hamper overflowing has no impression on him. That can be frustrating also (why can't they see what needs to be done and just do it) but I know that will never happen.
I'm sorry you are going through this rough time and hope you can find something that will help.

 

[darrose]

Well, you feel in love with your lazy guy and if you are not happy
its up to you and him to figure out where you go from here.
Thirteen years is too long to simmer with this resentment.
Once again good luck!!!!!

 

[missypie]

Did anyone ever see any of the old Ma & Pa Kettle movies? Ma & Pa lived on a ramshackle farm and had a semingly infinite number of children. Ma handled everything and Pa sat around doing nothing...that was a big part of the humor of the movies....yet Ma was incredibly understanding and loving of Pa...how did she do it?

 

[darrose]

/comforts Missy

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Originally posted by sue1013
Marriage is a partnership while not always 50/50 (only in an ideal world) I believe it should be close.

Actually I believe that marriage is a partnership where each spouse tries to give 100 percent. DH and I both work full time. We do not have kids full-time. I will admit and say that DH probably does more around the house than me. BUT, he is a total neat-nik (which I love about him, and has helped to make me a neater person) and feels that he needs to do the cleaning himself or it's just not "right." I was offended by this at first, but have learned to accept it (and really should I complain because he is willing to scrub the toilet??!??!). So I try to make up my part by running errands, doing little projects around the house, making nice meals on the weekend, baking his favorite desserts, etc. I do clean up every night after supper and I do our laundry and dusting. We share outside chores pretty much 50/50. Still sometimes I feel guilty.

Missy, I feel for you. I can hear the frustration in your posts. Chances are he isn't happy either. You TWO need to work on this TOGETHER, and it only works when you each give 100 percent. Good luck.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I know you are angry but start coming up with solutions to what is bothering you. Take some of the pressure off the situation and have the cleaning person come in more often right now.

Basically that is what counseling is about. Teaching both of you to negotiate a win-win situation.

I do understand the frustration that YOU want this and HE wants that... so BOTH of you don't give each other what you want because you are mad.

Counseling will help you peel all those layers off and get down to the root of the problems. Cause it is not about the cleaning.

 

[missypie]

But Mystery, that's my concern about counseling...because it IS about the cleaning (and cooking)...truly truly, if I would come home every night to a reasonably neat house, and a reasonably tasty meal (whether he made it or bought it at Boston Market) my anger would subside and we would be fine...wouldn't matter to me if it took him 7 hours to get the house and meal together or 1 hour to get it together...He knows that this is important to me and every day of our lives he is telling me by his behavior "I don't care what is important to you."

Of course, there is very much a deeper meaning: I was socialized as a girl/woman and he was socialized as a boy/man. Clean house is important to me; I was raised to know how to make a house look nice. Clean house is meaningless to him; he was raised thinking it was Mom who made the house clean. I like a nice meal with a nice table. He'll eat ANYTHING. The root of all is the role reversal that took place many years ago and it is pretty much too late to change unless we want to dramatically change our standard of living.

Also, young ladies (and young men, if there are any out there): You never believe it, but your spouse will almost always behave like their same sex parent in a marriage, because that is all they have learned. I knew my DH for 12 years before we were married, and believe me, he behaved nothing like his "the world exisits to please me" father. But once you're married, both spouses start recreating their parents' marriages.