Does anyone agree with me on this...

[jpeppers]

I read an earlier post that talked about airport securtity never actually stopping a terrorist threat. I have worked in a prison for 17 years and although I have never found an actual weapon on an Inmate I'm not willing to stop searching them. I am very annoyed by waiting in line and want to get to my destination as quickly as possible but I want to get there in one piece so if it takes me an extra couple of hours or an extra day so be it, atleast I will be there.

 

[PortieOwner]

Yeah, after the bomb goes off they can shoot. You seem to think there's an "Early warning system" or maybe they should just start shooting folks that "look bad" Or maybe the terrorist could RIP the guns out of the "right to carry" guys hands. (And well over HALF of any of my train cars are women I guess they couldn't have a handgun however?) Once again is REACTIVE vs PROACTIVE. (And even Marta admits it's an easy target they keep asking for more money, but....)

I didn't discount the terrorist attacks on other targets YOU did so I don't think that I was 'waving the flag' You are the one obsessed with airplanes NOT the terrorists was the point I was making. The terrorists are obsessed with creating terror. You seem to think that the terrorists are ONLY going to target a plane. LOOK AROUND, there's a target right near you and it's NOT in the air!

In Israel a number of suicide bombers have been shot by either security or armed civilians while they were in the middle of carrying out their attacks.

Finally, I am not sure I agree with the "creating terror" end product. What they want to do is kill people and wreck the economy. They correctly see aircraft and air travel as an important part of the economy.

Portie

 

[PortieOwner]

And the "security" at WDW is even more of a a farce than at airports--it would be pretty darn easy to carry in a backpack with explosives wrapped in foil in a collapsable cooler made to look like sandwiches and detonate it in the middle of a large but compact queue.

I doubt a sandwich-sized explosive detonated in a ride queue would kill more than a couple of guests. A regular handgrenade might kill a dozen, but probably less (airport queues in two European airports were attacked by hand grenades and gunfire about 20 years ago and the casualties were pretty low). The explosive backpacks brought onto the trains in London, Madrid, and Mumbai were quite large, big enough that WDW security would notice (the suicide vests used in Israel are also big enough to be noticed by the bag checkers). WDW is also rumored to have excellent plainclothes security in the parks, and fairly good methods of identifying potential threats (they have gotten help from the Israelis).

Portie

 

[ducklite]

I doubt a sandwich-sized explosive detonated in a ride queue would kill more than a couple of guests. A regular handgrenade might kill a dozen, but probably less (airport queues in two European airports were attacked by hand grenades and gunfire about 20 years ago and the casualties were pretty low). The explosive backpacks brought onto the trains in London, Madrid, and Mumbai were quite large, big enough that WDW security would notice (the suicide vests used in Israel are also big enough to be noticed by the bag checkers). WDW is also rumored to have excellent plainclothes security in the parks, and fairly good methods of identifying potential threats (they have gotten help from the Israelis).

Portie

And all it would take is one guest to die at the hands of a terrorist at WDW and through a ripple effect the nations economy would be impacted. My guess is if you took a poll here on the Dis, 80% of the people would say that if there was a terrorist incident at WDW they would alter their plans to visit. That 80% is a significant number, and it would effect air travel and travel agents all of the world. It would have a huge impact on the local economy.

As it all trickeled down you would see a ripple in a lot of sectors--from the food industry to the computer industry.

It would have the effect that terrorists want. it would cause terror at a fundemental American icon while measurably disrupting the nations economy. Would it cripple the economy, probably not. But there would be a measurable blip.

Anne

 

[PortieOwner]

Uh, over two million people a day use the NYC subway system. That does not include NJ Transit, Metro North, and LIRR. I have no idea how many use the Chicago or Atlanta systems, but the numbers must be very high as well.

If a terrorist took out a subway train and tunnel in NYC, it would possibly cost more to get it back up and running than the cost of one plane, depending on the level of damage. Our subways/commuter trains are largely undefended, and an incredibly easy target for a suicide bomber. The loss of one plane would have an overall lesser financial effect than the loss of one major subway tunnel.
Anne

I included intercity trips to compare like to like (and noted as much in my post).

In terms of economic activity and so on, the US air travel system is a much bigger economic prize than all the mass transit in the USA. Think NYC with 2 million passenger trips per day, at ($1.50--I forget what the subway there costs now) that's $3 million a day in revenue. Daily air travel revenue must be more like $400 million a day (not counting cargo).

A new 737 can cost $75 million, a 777 can cost $250 million, and a 747 can cost almost $300 million. The terrorists wanted to blow up a dozen 777/747 class aircraft. You could build many miles of new subway tunnel for just that cost. I believe in Mumbai 180 were killed in about 7 explosions, and the subway was running again in 48 hours.

Remember, the Sept. 11 attacks put several airlines into bankruptcy. No one would be put into bancruptcy by an attack on the NYC subway (unless the subway were used as a tool to infect hundreds of thousands with smallpox or some other rapidly spreading deadly disease--then all bets are off).

Just heard from a friend of mine who is a railroad expert this morning and he agrees with my assessment. The rail system (even the subway system) is apparently pretty robust:

"There's very little war can do to a railroad that Mother Nature doesn't do on a routine basis. In the case of a rail tunnel, they're designed to survive a train derailing at speed... and then burning... 2000+ degrees for hours."

Portie

 

[PortieOwner]

And all it would take is one guest to die at the hands of a terrorist at WDW and through a ripple effect the nations economy would be impacted. My guess is if you took a poll here on the Dis, 80% of the people would say that if there was a terrorist incident at WDW they would alter their plans to visit. That 80% is a significant number, and it would effect air travel and travel agents all of the world. It would have a huge impact on the local economy.

I don't know about that. We can't say for sure until it happens but people have died on all sorts of ride at WDW and DL and people still go there and ride those same rides. I think if there were an incident there, security would become much tighter immediately.

Let me put it this way, I am confident enough about Disney's security that I don't carry at Disney.

Portie

 

[WillCAD]

I agree completely. It seems my bags, my purse, my person, my shoes, etc are searched nearly every time I fly. No complaints here. I would do anything for me or my family to be safe flying at 30,000 feet and 600 mph.

Perhaps these people are just chronic complainers and are just jumping on to another hot topic to argue until their hearts are content?!?!

So we should just shut up and take whatever the government throws at us, even if we have a moral or ethical objection to it, ecause they tel us it will make us safe?

Sorry, that doesn't work with me. I'm a reasonable person, and I'm willing to make reasonable consessions in the name of safety and security, but when something comes along that hurts more than it helps, or is completely useless, or is laughably inefficient and wasteful, I'm going to remark upon it.

 

[tracys2cents]

It's just an ongoing example of how American life is based on FEAR that is ignited by the media.

Why should PLANES be so focused on? Our trains don't deserve to be safe? Our cruise ships and bridges don't deserve some attention? The reason that we put more attention on planes is simply the fear instilled in us by 9/11. They've got us thinking that PLANES should be our main focus. And that's what terrorists do best, terrorize!

Meanwhile, our lame president and our lame Homeland Security continue with this charade, making us believe that they are keeping us safe by putting more security agents at the airports. Hogwash. There are more people in our SCHOOLS every day than in our airplanes, so why are we focused on our SCHOOLS? Our malls? Our ports?????

I, for one, am not fooled by Homeland Security FARCES. Just because my grammy has to empty her carry-on bag and take off her shoes does NOT lead me to believe that we are safer as Americans than we were before 9/11. HALF THE CHECKED LUGGAGE that goes onboard airplanes, and HALF OR MORE of the Cargo is STILL never put through ANY kind of detection. Meanwhile Halliburton gets rich!

 

[tracys2cents]

[I]"It seems my bags, my purse, my person, my shoes, etc are searched nearly every time I fly. No complaints here. I would do anything for me or my family to be safe."[/I]


AND JUST HOW, EXACTLY, DOES THAT MAKE YOUR FAMILY SAFER???

The guy next to you could still have checked a bag with a bomb in it, that he can detonate with his cell phone while he's sitting right next to you.

Your delay at the security check does nothing to keep you safer, it only makes everyone FEEL safer.

 

[ducklite]

I included intercity trips to compare like to like (and noted as much in my post).

In terms of economic activity and so on, the US air travel system is a much bigger economic prize than all the mass transit in the USA. Think NYC with 2 million passenger trips per day, at ($1.50--I forget what the subway there costs now) that's $3 million a day in revenue. Daily air travel revenue must be more like $400 million a day (not counting cargo).

A new 737 can cost $75 million, a 777 can cost $250 million, and a 747 can cost almost $300 million. The terrorists wanted to blow up a dozen 777/747 class aircraft. You could build many miles of new subway tunnel for just that cost. I believe in Mumbai 180 were killed in about 7 explosions, and the subway was running again in 48 hours.

Remember, the Sept. 11 attacks put several airlines into bankruptcy. No one would be put into bancruptcy by an attack on the NYC subway (unless the subway were used as a tool to infect hundreds of thousands with smallpox or some other rapidly spreading deadly disease--then all bets are off).

Just heard from a friend of mine who is a railroad expert this morning and he agrees with my assessment. The rail system (even the subway system) is apparently pretty robust:

"There's very little war can do to a railroad that Mother Nature doesn't do on a routine basis. In the case of a rail tunnel, they're designed to survive a train derailing at speed... and then burning... 2000+ degrees for hours."

Portie

It's not just the value of the train and tunnel, it's the value of the entire system, a system which is the only reasonable way for millions of people to get to and from work and play. If people do'nt show up to work the economy will take a hit.

And it's $2 a ride these days on the subway.

BTW--There's no way you could build "miles of subway" in NYC for $300 million. You are joking about that I hope. It cost more than that just to refurbish the existing Union Square station over the past decade, and it's still not done.

Anne

 

[nuke]

[I]"It seems my bags, my purse, my person, my shoes, etc are searched nearly every time I fly. No complaints here. I would do anything for me or my family to be safe."[/I]


AND JUST HOW, EXACTLY, DOES THAT MAKE YOUR FAMILY SAFER???

The guy next to you could still have checked a bag with a bomb in it, that he can detonate with his cell phone while he's sitting right next to you.

Your delay at the security check does nothing to keep you safer, it only makes everyone FEEL safer.

Thank You! That is exactly what I have been thinking and I agree completely. We need to stop the terrorists before the get to the airport. Airport security will stop the every day psychos but the terrorists know the way around the TSA stop.

 

[ducklite]

I don't know about that. We can't say for sure until it happens but people have died on all sorts of ride at WDW and DL and people still go there and ride those same rides. I think if there were an incident there, security would become much tighter immediately.

Let me put it this way, I am confident enough about Disney's security that I don't carry at Disney.

Portie

It is a violation of WDW policy to have any type of gun on your person or in your car (and I would imagine this also means hotel rooms) at WDW. They will ask anyone who is found with such an item to leave the property--and it won't be a nice big Mickey wave goodbye as you are escorted out, most likely by the OCSD.

This applies to guests and employees except those employees who work in a specific positions which require them to be armed.

There's a big difference between someone dying on a ride (particularly because almost every one of those people had an underlying medical condition to begin with) than Susie and Bobby from LaCrosse getting blown up while in queue to ride Buzz.

Anne

 

[schlepsnort]

So if I am reading some of these posts right stating that they will do ANYTHING that is asked of them just to feel safer while flying...then does that mean you'll subject yourself, your family to body cavity searches if our government deems it necessary?

Do you then agree with tonight's news (on Chicago's World News Tonight) that profiling SHOULD occur in the airports and all Muslims should be set aside for closer scrutiny and some checks will be determined by your religious affiliation? Btw they are considering it but not putting it into action as of yet.

Really now, is there not a line that should not be crossed or when it is then it's just not worth flying anymore?

 

[PortieOwner]

So if I am reading some of these posts right stating that they will do ANYTHING that is asked of them just to feel safer while flying...then does that mean you'll subject yourself, your family to body cavity searches if our government deems it necessary?

Depending upon what foreign country you fly through you might be subjected to something close. In India they always give a very thorough pat down search for everyone flying, and they have additional security which would seem very draconian to an American.

Right now we are no where near a line I would not cross. Taking off your shoes and tossing out your water bottle? Big deal.

 

[schlepsnort]

I agree, right now we really aren't crossing any lines but I don't agree with the thinking that its making us any safer. It can make us FEEL safer but I don't think it really is that effective.
Even the Pres. today stated that we aren't that much safer than we were 5 years ago.
I just think some people who say that they will do anything that is asked of them should really think further ahead and maybe censor that thought to "anything within limits" because I think we all have our limits!

 

[PortieOwner]

It is a violation of WDW policy to have any type of gun on your person or in your car (and I would imagine this also means hotel rooms) at WDW. They will ask anyone who is found with such an item to leave the property--and it won't be a nice big Mickey wave goodbye as you are escorted out, most likely by the OCSD.

It is a violation of WDW policy to carry in the parks. It is not a violation of Florida law and plenty of people with Florida permits do carry in the parks. Disney will kick you out and take your ticket if they catch you carrying in the park but I doubt they catch many people. I would be very surprised if there was a ban on firearms in a parked car or hotel room--I'd sure like to see it in writing. Your hotel room (or RV or even campsite) are considered your "home" under most state laws.

Portie

 

[schlepsnort]

but why would anyone with a permit to carry bring it into the park? I can maybe understand a police officer or FBI agent who is on vacation but still feels the need to be 'on' just in case. But I don't get the rest of the people who would do that?

My bestfriend had an usher at her wedding who did this. He brought his weapon to the wedding...and it wasn't to get the groom down the aisle! He is licensed to carry a concealed weapon so he just does! Doesn't matter where he is going or what he is doing, he just always has one or two on him at all times. It's kind of weird/creepy.

Just curious as to why...

 

[PortieOwner]

It's not just the value of the train and tunnel, it's the value of the entire system, a system which is the only reasonable way for millions of people to get to and from work and play. If people do'nt show up to work the economy will take a hit.

And it's $2 a ride these days on the subway.

BTW--There's no way you could build "miles of subway" in NYC for $300 million. You are joking about that I hope. It cost more than that just to refurbish the existing Union Square station over the past decade, and it's still not done.

In the short term people would find alternate ways to work (just look at how commuters responded after the San Fran and LA earthquakes wen their infrastructure was wrecked). Again, after the Mumbai attacks trains were rolling withing a couple of days; in London people were using the Tube the next day (there was increased security).

The economic cost just of planes in this past terror plot approached $4 billion (that doesn't count the insurance losses, lost revenue to the airlines, lost tourism, lost cargo capacity, etc.). In the DC area $4 billion will build several miles of subway tunnel--but no terrorist attack could conceivably wreck even 100 feet of tunnel. The bomb a person can carry just isn't powerful enough (unless it's nuclear).

You also need to examine how comprehensive a proposed attack is. You suggest a subway attack. As big as the NYC metro area is, it is a tiny part of the US (probably as small as 2-3 percent of the population). While the financial industry is there, they are now set up to work remotely and the real financial capitol of the US is probably someplace in northern NJ. An attack on the air infrastructure affects not just New York but every city and state in the country--any place where someone wants to fly to or from is affected.

Again, the terrorists have expert help who studies this sort of thing. They will no doubt take on targets of opportunity but they are committed to strategic attacks against our economy and our population.

Portie

 

[PortieOwner]

It's just an ongoing example of how American life is based on FEAR that is ignited by the media.

Why should PLANES be so focused on? Our trains don't deserve to be safe? Our cruise ships and bridges don't deserve some attention? The reason that we put more attention on planes is simply the fear instilled in us by 9/11. They've got us thinking that PLANES should be our main focus. And that's what terrorists do best, terrorize!

I recommend you start an airline without any security. See how long your planes stay in the air. I remember when the first X-ray machines and metal detectors were installed in airports. They went in because a number of drug-crazed leftists hijacked US planes for cash and trips to the worker's paradise of Cuba. That domestic security system was pretty effective for about 30 years.

 

[PortieOwner]

[I]"It seems my bags, my purse, my person, my shoes, etc are searched nearly every time I fly. No complaints here. I would do anything for me or my family to be safe."[/I]

AND JUST HOW, EXACTLY, DOES THAT MAKE YOUR FAMILY SAFER???

The guy next to you could still have checked a bag with a bomb in it, that he can detonate with his cell phone while he's sitting right next to you.

Your delay at the security check does nothing to keep you safer, it only makes everyone FEEL safer.

Checked bag with a bomb? Hope not. All airports now have screening machines which should find not just nitrate-based explosives (like Semtex and TNT) but also the liquid explosives. I believe the main machine is an MRI-like device, but they also have "sniffer" machines and they are using more and more dogs to sniff checked luggage. The also hand-check a lot of luggage.

There are also a couple of reasons a bomb in the cargo won't work quite as well but I won't go into it.

I am also wondering about these big delays at security people are complaining about. I travelled a lot this past year and found it no worse than before Sept. 11.

Portie