Disturbing Story out of Penn State

Someone on the news was saying that the NCAA doesn't actually have the right rules to properly deal with a situation such as this. This individual claimed that the rules don't cover abuse of power which supposedly this was.

Does anyone know what is was referring to exactly? I only caught the tail end of the discussion.
 
PlanoGirl: There is some discussion that this is not covered under the NCAA. If you do a search for 'Penn State Death Penalty' you'll see articles that go both ways. Some argue that 'Lack of Institutional Control' is enough of a cover-all charge that it can be used in this situation. Others argue that because this is not an issue with students, but with staff & coaches, as well as the fact that its not about paying players or other things of that nature, that it does NOT fall under the 'Lack of Institutional Control' umbrella.

I cannot say who is correct but 2 things:

1. I'm sure both the NCAA & PSU have lawyers making sure that whatever happens its legally OK.
2. I really have to wonder if the NCAA does go with charges under 'Lack of Institutional Control' if PSU is going to fight them on it. IMO, their reputation is already in the toilet & appearing to fight them on what some might call semantics wouldn't help their rep at all. I'd say take the sanctions (yes, even the Death Penalty) & figure out how the heck to move on from this nightmare.
 
Thanks for the response. It makes sense now since I heard the guy (I didn't catch the name) saying that in his opinion this was not a lack of institutional control but actually about a great deal of control and abuse of that on top of everything else. Interesting perspectives.

I agree that PSU should just quietly take whatever is coming to them. I think that this would be best for those who were in no way involved in this sad situation.
 
Reading the report now and it is SO disturbing that university employees and football coaches regularly observed Sandusky showering with young boys at the Lasch Building. Never reported. Heartbreaking and disgusting.

As to why no one higher up ever did anything about this.....the thought is crossing my mind that Sandusky might have known about secrets himself (perhaps recruiting or NCAA-type violations) and the JoePa network kept him happy - and quiet - by playing host to his use of university facilities with young boys....and use of university privileges up until last fall.

I almost have to think that....to think they kept it quiet to be "humane" to Sandusky is too disturbing to consider.

It is all mind-boggling. :sad2:

I think the football program at Penn State should get the death penalty. The vileness that allowed this to go on for so many years permeates the program. Let them start again in 5 or 10 years with a clean slate of staff and coaches.
 
I think they should get the death penalty. Paying for cars, cheating on tests, and student's trading their own personal property for tattoos pales in comparison to raping children and that is what all of them from Sandusky to Paterno did. In a conspiracy, which is what this is, all parties are guilty of not only the cover up but the initial crime.

Don't worry about the Big Ten. Penn State is a newcomer to the conference anyway (joined in 1993 for athletics) and unlike he Southwest conference no one school could take it down. The conference is full of big football programs, some of the biggest in the country, even if you take Penn State out of it.

Paterno’s name taken off Nike child development center.

I bet Phil Knight regrets that eulogy now, moron.

I'm going back and reading all the apologists on this thread and it is both infuriating and laughable. And don't give me the "we didn't know then" crap because the day this story first broke I knew and said so publicly, even here. I didn't need this report to tell me, all this report does is confirm what I was sure of back then.

So you were right all along. Does that make you happy now that the evidence has proven your "rightness"?

I can't imagine thinking something so awful of people before the evidence has been presented against them. Who wouldn't want to believe that the evil was contained in the person of the attacker alone and that he didn't have help?? Only someone who has a hugely negative view of their fellow human beings (and a very HIGH view of themselves in contrast) in general could ever want to believe such things without evidence.

The only thing yesterday did was broaden the scope of the tragedy. It was already horrifying, now it's just worse.
 
So you were right all along. Does that make you happy now that the evidence has proven your "rightness"?

I can't imagine thinking something so awful of people before the evidence has been presented against them. Who wouldn't want to believe that the evil was contained in the person of the attacker alone and that he didn't have help?? Only someone who has a hugely negative view of their fellow human beings (and a very HIGH view of themselves in contrast) in general could ever want to believe such things without evidence.

The only thing yesterday did was broaden the scope of the tragedy. It was already horrifying, now it's just worse.

I think what is sadder is how people can be blind to what is staring them in the face just because someone is a huge football coach. If staunch supporters of Paterno had been able to put their blind loyalty aside and tried to see things objectively, they would have seen that the truth was staring them in smack the face. He was given their support, not because the truth wasn't clear, but because they just didn't want to see it.

He was seen as "much more than a football coach" but then excused by saying he was "just a football coach". A man with 60+ years in an institution, having the influence and power he did, with a statue in his name, was not kept in the dark about the happenings in HIS program. Outsiders could see this, others just didn't want to. I can understand that.

I can't speak for FireDancer, but I know Im just glad that others that contributed to this tragedy are being exposed and held to the fire. And I certainly don't see anyone dancing in happiness.
 
ETA: I was shocked when they were offered a Bowl Game. I hope that the NCAA "mans up" and dishes out the Death Penalty. It's really the only way to make sure the program will continue without the staff that tainted it.
Really? The only way? Get rid of any staff member who was around the program at the time of the abuse. PROSECUTE any staff member who knew about the abuse and didn't do anything about it.

Doesn't that accomplish the same thing?
 
I think the argument can be made that they benefitted from the coverups at PSU, as, without the continuing coverup, the coaches involved would have been removed, the entire JoPa thing would have been damaged and hurt their rep and recruiting and thus success, etc.
I think that's quite a stretch.

As to comparing it to the RCC - regardless of how or whether you see the two as similar situations, there is no body that has the power to shut down the RCC. There is nothing with oversight, no one and nothing has the power or capacity to even begin to do that, so I think the point is sortof moot.
I don't think a lack of a "governing body" makes my statement less valid. I think the "death penalty" for the football program is extreme.
 
I think what is sadder is how people can be blind to what is staring them in the face just because someone is a huge football coach. If staunch supporters of Paterno had been able to put their blind loyalty aside and tried to see things objectively, they would have seen that the truth was staring them in smack the face. He was given their support, not because the truth wasn't clear, but because they just didn't want to see it.

He was seen as "much more than a football coach" but then excused by saying he was "just a football coach". A man with 60+ years in an institution, having the influence and power he did, with a statue in his name, was not kept in the dark about the happenings in HIS program. Outsiders could see this, others just didn't want to. I can understand that.

I can't speak for FireDancer, but I know Im just glad that others that contributed to this tragedy are being exposed and held to the fire. And I certainly don't see anyone dancing in happiness.

:thumbsup2:thumbsup2
 
Realistically, as far as the victims are concerned, the damage is done. Penn State is not going to be able to change what happened. They can only try and rectify it to the best of their ability by aiding and supporting the victims, and putting programs in place so that nothing like this ever happens again.

Anyone who was involved in the football program at the time this was occurring, knew about it and said nothing should be fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

The entire Penn State system needs to be revamped top to bottom....I mean the ENTIRE system, not just the Athletic Dept. Let's be realistic, people from all levels @ Penn State covered this up. There needs to be a complete culture change at the institution reagrding these kinds of incidents to make it mandatory to report ANY unusual incidents (regardless of the ages of people involved but ESPECIALLY if children are involved) without fear of retribution, job loss, unwarranted legal action etc.

Penn State needs to develop some kind of program for restitution ot the victims.

Penn State needs to develop some kind of program regarding child abuse, spotting it, reporting it etc. and EVERY person who is employed by the institution needs to attend the program.

Whatever "govenring" bodies oversee colleges (both athletics and in general) need to keep a microscope on Penn State for a LONG time.

In short, Penn State needs to convince the public that they are ashamed of this and take steps to insure that it NEVER happens again.

The bottom line is, they (ALL of them including Joe Paterno) sacrificed children for the football program and that is beyond abhorrent.
 
An article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/2012/07/12/gJQAMUX9fW_print.html


Joe Paterno, at the end, showed more interest in his legacy than Jerry Sandusky’s victims

By Sally Jenkins, Published: July*12

Joe Paterno was a liar, there’s no doubt about that now. He was also a cover-up artist. If the Freeh report is correct in its summary of the Penn State child molestation scandal, the public Paterno of the last few years was a work of fiction. In his place is a hubristic, indictable hypocrite.

In the last interview before his death, Paterno insisted as strenuously as a dying man could that he had absolutely no knowledge of a 1998 police inquiry into child molestation accusations against his assistant coach, Jerry Sandusky. This has always been the critical point in assessing whether Paterno and other Penn State leaders enabled Sandusky’s crimes.

If Paterno knew about ’98, then he wasn’t some aging granddad who was deceived, but a canny and unfeeling power broker who put protecting his reputation ahead of protecting children.

If he knew about ’98, then he understood the import of graduate assistant Mike McQueary’s distraught account in 2001 that he witnessed Sandusky assaulting a boy in the Penn State showers.

If he knew about ’98, then he also perjured himself before a grand jury.

Guilty.

Paterno didn’t always give lucid answers in his final interview conducted with The Washington Post eight days before his death, but on this point he was categorical and clear as a bell. He pled total, lying ignorance of the ’98 investigation into a local mother’s claim Sandusky had groped her son in the shower at the football building. How could Paterno have no knowledge of this, I asked him?

“Nobody knew,” he said.

Everybody knew.

Never heard a rumor?

“I never heard a thing,” he said.

He heard everything.

“If Jerry’s guilty, nobody found out till after several incidents.”

Not a whisper? How is that possible?

Paterno’s account of himself is flatly contradicted in damning detail by ex FBI-director Louis Freeh’s report. In a news conference Thursday, Freeh charged that Paterno, along with athletic director Timothy Curley, university president Graham Spanier and vice president Gary Schultz, engaged in a cover-up, “an active agreement of concealment.”

Paterno was not only aware of the ’98 investigation but followed it “closely” according to Freeh. As did the entire leadership of Penn State. E-mails and confidential notes by Schultz about the progress of the inquiry prove it. “Behavior — at best inappropriate @ worst sexual improprieties,” Schultz wrote. “At min – Poor Judgment.” Schultz also wrote, “Is this opening of pandora’s box?” and “Other children?”

A May 5, 1998 e-mail from Curley to Schultz and Spanier was titled “Joe Paterno” and it says, “I have touched base with the coach. Keep us posted. Thanks.”

A second e-mail dated May 13 1998 from Curley to Schultz is titled “Jerry” and it says, “Anything new [in] this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands.”

There is only one aspect in which the Freeh report does not totally destroy Paterno’s pretension of honesty. It finds no connection between the ’98 investigation and Sandusky’s resignation from Paterno’s staff in ’99. The report also suggests that Paterno genuinely believed the police had found no evidence of a crime.

Paterno can be forgiven for his initial denial, for refusing to believe his colleague was a child molester in ’98. What’s not forgivable is his sustained determination to lie from 2001 onward.

This is how Paterno testified in January 2011 before the grand jury. He was asked: “Other than the [2001] incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?”

Paterno replied, “I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it.”

Paterno’s family continued to insist Thursday via a statement that Paterno’s account was not inconsistent with the facts, and he “always believed, as we do, that the full truth should be uncovered.”

But Paterno was no more interested in the full truth than Walt Disney.

In his final interview, he played the faux-naif who insisted he had “never heard of rape and a man.” Who hadn’t followed up on McQueary’s report out of squeamishness. Who was wary of interfering in university “procedure.” Who insisted it was unfair to put Penn State on trial along with a pedophile, and that this was not “a football scandal.”

In fact, in 2001 Paterno had every reason to suspect Sandusky was a serial defiler of children. In fact, Paterno was not reluctant to interfere in university procedure; he helped dictate it. In fact, this was a football scandal. The crimes were committed by a former assistant football coach in the football building. Ten boys, and 45 criminal counts, at least five of them molested on the Penn State campus after 1998 when Paterno committed the awful misjudgment of continuing to allow Sandusky to bring boys to his locker room, so sure was he that Sandusky was “a good guy.”

We can’t un-rape and un-molest those boys. We can’t remove them from the showers and seize them back from the hands of Sandusky. That should have been an unrelenting source of rage and grief to Paterno. Yet in perhaps the most damaging observation of all, the Freeh report accuses Paterno and his colleagues of “a striking lack of empathy” for the victims.

Everything else about Paterno must now be questioned; other details about him begin to nag. You now wonder if his self-defense was all an exercise in sealing off watertight compartments, leaving colleagues on the outside to drown. You wonder if he performed a very neat trick in disguising himself as a modest and benevolent man. The subtle but constant emphasis on his Ivy League education, the insistence that Penn State football had higher standards, now looks more like rampant elitism.

Undeniably, for many years Paterno did virtuous work at Penn State. His combined winning records and graduation rates were indeed much higher than those of his peers. It’s a relevant part of the Penn State affair and worth stating, because it contributed to the institutional response. The Freeh report cited “numerous individual failings,” but it also found “weaknesses of the University’s culture, governance, administration, compliance policies and procedures for protecting children.” As other commentators have rightly observed, Paterno’s huge successes helped form those potholes. He was the university’s culture.

He was the self-appointed arbiter of character and justice in State College. He had decided Sandusky was “a good man” in 1998, and he simply found it too hard to admit he made a fatal misjudgment and gave a child molester the office nearest to his. He was more interested in protecting a cardboard cutout legacy than the flesh and blood of young men.

The only explanation I can find for this “striking lack of empathy” is self-absorption. In asking how a paragon of virtue could have behaved like such a thoroughly bad guy, the only available answer is that Paterno fell prey to the single most corrosive sin in sports: the belief that winning on the field makes you better and more important than other people.
 
So you were right all along. Does that make you happy now that the evidence has proven your "rightness"?

I can't imagine thinking something so awful of people before the evidence has been presented against them. Who wouldn't want to believe that the evil was contained in the person of the attacker alone and that he didn't have help?? Only someone who has a hugely negative view of their fellow human beings (and a very HIGH view of themselves in contrast) in general could ever want to believe such things without evidence.

The only thing yesterday did was broaden the scope of the tragedy. It was already horrifying, now it's just worse.

I have seen far too many cases like this where a scandal breaks and what you find out at the beginning is just the tip of the iceberg. There were also far too many little things that all lead me to believe many more people knew much more than we were lead to believe. It happens time and time again.

There is a difference between thinking every person walking around is bad and thinking when someone is involved in one of the worst scandals in history they knew more than they said they knew. Whether we are talking about Watergate, Boystown, the scandal in the Catholic church, or Penn State the reality is always much worse than we originally think because of the power-hungry egomaniacs involved. It was all there to see if people chose to open their eyes. Many didn't.

As for being happy, yes and no. I'm not happy that this tragedy happened or that so many people who could have stopped it not only didn't but actively covered it up. None of that makes me happy. I am happy though that all those involved are being shown for what they are. I would rather know everyone involved, the totality of their involvement, and that they are properly punished than sit here blissfully ignorant. I am glad that Paterno's legacy will be that he covered up the rape of children which allowed more children to be raped instead of the insignificance of coaching some football. I like when the public sees who someone really is instead of the fictional character they portray themselves to be. As a previous poster said, Paterno came across as a nice guy when in reality he was pure, unadulterated evil.

The entire Penn State system needs to be revamped top to bottom....I mean the ENTIRE system, not just the Athletic Dept. Let's be realistic, people from all levels @ Penn State covered this up. There needs to be a complete culture change at the institution reagrding these kinds of incidents to make it mandatory to report ANY unusual incidents (regardless of the ages of people involved but ESPECIALLY if children are involved) without fear of retribution, job loss, unwarranted legal action etc.

Amen. People keep falsely stating that the problem was with the football program only or with some members of the football staff. That just isn't true. If it was true the president of the University (Spanier) wouldn't have been involved. The senior VP of business and finance (Schultz) wouldn't have been involved. God only knows what more there is but make no mistake, there is still more that no one knows and it will take years if not decades for everything to come to light.
 
Firedancer, it sounds to me like you disliked Paterno long before any of this came out. There's a little too much venom there for that to not be the case IMO. Maybe you saw him for what he really was or maybe you had other reasons.

I do see many here a bit too happy about this news. It completely saddens me. It's such a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to. I see nothing wrong with loving football but not to this level.
 
After thinking about the Freeh report I can only come up with two possible explanations regarding Joe Paterno and the other leaders at Penn State:

- they thought the football was more important than the rape of young boys and should be protected at the expense of current and future victims
or
- they do not think there is anything wrong with child rape

Both of these alternatives are horrible but I truly hope it is the first one. And an athletic program based on the first alternative does not deserve to get to compete with other schools. I am glad that the schools I support are not scheduled to play Penn State. If the NCAA refuses to man up and act, maybe it is time for the member schools to refuse to put them on their schedules.
 
Firedancer, it sounds to me like you disliked Paterno long before any of this came out. There's a little too much venom there for that to not be the case IMO. Maybe you saw him for what he really was or maybe you had other reasons.

I do see many here a bit too happy about this news. It completely saddens me. It's such a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to. I see nothing wrong with loving football but not to this level.

I was Paterno agnostic before the scandal. I knew that he was power hungry and refused to step down or even be fired (now I realize it is because he had information to hold over his bosses) but I neither liked nor disliked him as a person. I went through my days never thinking about Joe Paterno.

The moment this scandal broke though I knew that someone who was so intent to hold absolute power over anything would have held that power over every aspect of that thing, not just some aspects. Going with that hypothesis I knew personally that he would have had a pretty central role in what was obviously even at that time a pretty involved cover up.

When a scandal of any sort breaks out in an organization (be it sports, business, government, or religion) look for the most powerful people involved and it is a near certainty that in the end it will turn out they had a very active role. It is how power dynamics work. Paterno craved and had power so it only made sense. This is the critical thinking that was very absent in Happy Valley as people were protesting Joe's innocence and turning over news trucks.

There is nothing wrong with loving sports but when something happens inside a sports program or, if this were a pro team, franchise, you step back and look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that you stop worrying about the game and start worrying about the terrible crimes that the managers, directors, coaches, players, or whomever perpetrated and covered up. Had it been any other program or team, even one here in Cleveland, I would had felt the same.

We are not talking about a mere sports scandal here. This is unprecedented in the arena of sporting scandals and the reaction and consequences should be equally unprecedented. This is the serial rape of children. With the exception of mass genocide I can't think of a worse crime personally.
 
Firedancer, it sounds to me like you disliked Paterno long before any of this came out. There's a little too much venom there for that to not be the case IMO. Maybe you saw him for what he really was or maybe you had other reasons.

I do see many here a bit too happy about this news. It completely saddens me. It's such a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to. I see nothing wrong with loving football but not to this level.

I think I can speak for others in saying that we are not happy at all with the crimes that occurred but are very pleased that Paterno and the other leaders at Penn State were caught and exposed for their participation in the crimes taking place on that campus. I find it very encouraging that most people are refusing to stand by while someone who supported child rape is revered and has statutes erected in his image. People still willing to defend Joe Paterno is what saddens me.
 
Firedancer, it sounds to me like you disliked Paterno long before any of this came out. There's a little too much venom there for that to not be the case IMO. Maybe you saw him for what he really was or maybe you had other reasons.

I do see many here a bit too happy about this news. It completely saddens me. It's such a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to. I see nothing wrong with loving football but not to this level.

Just because many of us recognized what was bound to be coming certainly doesn't mean anybody disliked Paterno before. I don't follow sports. I knew he was a coach somewhere, but I couldn't have even told you at what school.

However, as the facts came out it was pretty obvious where it was headed. It has nothing to do with "being happy about this news" or accusing Firedancer of having "a little too much venom". IMHO there's not enough venom to go around to cover these atrocities.

As a victim of sexual abuse, I understand this all too well. People don't want to accept that these things really happen even if the evidence is there - especially by people that they know. It's easier to keep refusing to see the facts until they are finally shoved down their throats (as in the case with this report).



I was Paterno agnostic before the scandal. I knew that he was power hungry and refused to step down or even be fired (now I realize it is because he had information to hold over his bosses) but I neither liked nor disliked him as a person. I went through my days never thinking about Joe Paterno.

The moment this scandal broke though I knew that someone who was so intent to hold absolute power over anything would have held that power over every aspect of that thing, not just some aspects. Going with that hypothesis I knew personally that he would have had a pretty central role in what was obviously even at that time a pretty involved cover up.

When a scandal of any sort breaks out in an organization (be it sports, business, government, or religion) look for the most powerful people involved and it is a near certainty that in the end it will turn out they had a very active role. It is how power dynamics work. Paterno craved and had power so it only made sense. This is the critical thinking that was very absent in Happy Valley as people were protesting Joe's innocence and turning over news trucks.

There is nothing wrong with loving sports but when something happens inside a sports program or, if this were a pro team, franchise, you step back and look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that you stop worrying about the game and start worrying about the terrible crimes that the managers, directors, coaches, players, or whomever perpetrated and covered up. Had it been any other program or team, even one here in Cleveland, I would had felt the same.

We are not talking about a mere sports scandal here. This is unprecedented in the arena of sporting scandals and the reaction and consequences should be equally unprecedented. This is the serial rape of children. With the exception of mass genocide I can't think of a worse crime personally.

Absolutely.
 
I think I can speak for others in saying that we are not happy at all with the crimes that occurred but are very pleased that Paterno and the other leaders at Penn State were caught and exposed for their participation in the crimes taking place on that campus. I find it very encouraging that most people are refusing to stand by while someone who supported child rape is revered and has statutes erected in his image. People still willing to defend Joe Paterno is what saddens me.

I agree 100%. I would have been much happier if Paterno and the others did the right thing back in 98, 99 etc... than what actually transpired but since they didn't I am glad that everyone (or at least the most senior people) involved in the coverup are now being shamed publically. Hopefully the next time a scandal like this starts, the people in charge will do the right thing and protect the children and not their reputations or the institution they work for.
 
Just because many of us recognized what was bound to be coming certainly doesn't mean anybody disliked Paterno before. I don't follow sports. I knew he was a coach somewhere, but I couldn't have even told you at what school.

However, as the facts came out it was pretty obvious where it was headed. It has nothing to do with "being happy about this news" or accusing Firedancer of having "a little too much venom". IMHO there's not enough venom to go around to cover these atrocities.

As a victim of sexual abuse, I understand this all too well. People don't want to accept that these things really happen even if the evidence is there - especially by people that they know. It's easier to keep refusing to see the facts until they are finally shoved down their throats (as in the case with this report).


Agreed. In my whole life I never gave Paterno a single thought until this came out and to me it was so obvious that the initial reports were sadly only the tip of the iceberg. I don't know any of the victims but I am so angry over this, that I can't put my feelings into words. I don't know if there actually are words to adequately describe my thoughts on this. I don't understand those who don't have the same anger.
 
I do see many here a bit too happy about this news. It completely saddens me. It's such a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to. I see nothing wrong with loving football but not to this level.

What saddens me are the crimes that continued to happen to those poor boys even after JoePa and others found out about it and did nothing. To me, that is a sad reflection on the levels people can stoop to.
 
















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