Disturbing incident at Epcot last Thursday . . .

[planning06]

Harnesses are not leashes. They are a safety device. I used to think they looked awful until I had a child that was a darter. It was not a learned behavior, it is her personality. She did it from the time she could walk. We have been working on modifying her behavior but that takes time and persistence. Children are not dogs you can send off to obedience school. You cannot reason with a 1 or 2 year old. The best you can do it restrain them or leave them at home. Restraining can be a stroller, a shopping cart (dangerous and dirty), or a harness. Personally, I think a harness is the kinder restraint because the child has the ability to walk and explore up to a limit. I think it is kinder than having a kicking, screaming child in a stroller or grocery cart.

My daughter is almost 3 and she is getting better. She still darts off at times, but mostly she will stay close to me or dh. Again, it has taken a lot of time and pesistence as well as gaining maturity on her part.

 

[heatherfeather24]

Oh so I am niave. Because, I will not lose my child in DW? Let me tell you this. I It wont happen. You see, I never let my guard down. I am more than aware of where my children are at all times. When they are in my care. As another poster stated, the truth is the majority of people do not lose thier children in DW, a minority do. With a parent like me. I can say with 100% I will stay in the majority.

Add faindrops27 not losing his/her kid to the list of death and taxes as the only things that are 100% certain.

Sorry, but nothing in life is 100% certain. As much as you'd like to think you have total control over your kids, it doesn't work that way. Assigning blame or somehow holding yourself out as better than others because you are that in control is not helpful.

 

[planning06]

Oh so I am niave. Because, I will not lose my child in DW? Let me tell you this. I It wont happen. You see, I never let my guard down. I am more than aware of where my children are at all times. When they are in my care. As another poster stated, the truth is the majority of people do not lose thier children in DW, a minority do. With a parent like me. I can say with 100% I will stay in the majority.

You are naive because you think it could never happen to you.

 

[planning06]

Your children are in your field of vision at all times? Seriously? This is an honest question. You never look from them to check a wait time at WDW, or to speak to a castmember? Never take your eyes off them for a second, ever?

Exactly, I get a chuckle out of people like that. They must be superhuman or have more sets of eyes than most people. How do you look at a map? Watch a parade? Notice ANYTHING around you?

 

[brbenoit]

Sometimes children have mental disabilites and require restraint. If they are not restrained then they would just run away.

So it seems that there are one of two reasons to leash a child.

1) - Those where there is a need due to a mental disability
2) - Those who chose to leash their child.

It appears that because of the existence of #1, that ALL should be considered part of that category. The problem is that because of the abundence of category #2 it minimizes the impact of #1.

some parents chose the leash to give their child greater mobilty and to minimize stress.

In this case I find it very degrading to the child to be treated like an animal. But as you inferred, it is designed to make the parents life easier, that way they don't have to be as involved. I think it is a cop out.

I am only speaking of people in the second category. Just like with things like ECV and weight, people will focus on those who can't help it. I understand that some people don't have control over their situation, my problem is those who do and choose not to.

 

[rhiannonwales]

Perhaps but when you are teaching your child to speak like that you are teaching her to assume that they are lazy parents. No one is saying that you can't feel the way that you do. But seriously - keep your thoughts to yourself. You never know when your smart a$$ing someone what their situation is. I would think that if it was you you would want some consideration.
Disabled people don't run around with signs on saying "I'm disabled"!

 

[planning06]

In this case I find it very degrading to the child to be treated like an animal. But as you inferred, it is designed to make the parents life easier, that way they don't have to be as involved. I think it is a cop out.

Did you ever have a child that constantly darted off at a very young age? I've had two. One did not the other did. What exactly did you do in order to "teach" this very young child not to dart off? Have you ever restrained your child in a stroller? Have you ever restrained your child in a shopping cart? Have you ever restrained your child in a high chair? Have you ever restrained your child in a carseat? Please explain how these types of restraints are okay but a harness is comehow cruel and inhumane or at the very least degrading. Please explain how giving a child a larger amount of exercise and freedom to explore is a cop out by the parent.

 

[brbenoit]

Harnesses are not leashes. They are a safety device. I used to think they looked awful until I had a child that was a darter. It was not a learned behavior, it is her personality. She did it from the time she could walk. We have been working on modifying her behavior but that takes time and persistence. Children are not dogs you can send off to obedience school. You cannot reason with a 1 or 2 year old. The best you can do it restrain them or leave them at home.

Actually, you cannot send a dog off to obedience school either, in order to sucessfully train a dog you must be there.

With a child who is a darter they will require additional effort as you said. A 1 or 2 year old is more difficult, you can't fully reason with them but you can work to lay the foundation. Like animals, people (including adults) can be trained through reward/punishment.

We have a friend who has a 4 year old that could be described as a darter, but there is no reward/punishment related to this activity so there is no modification of behavior. They actually tend to lean only on the punishment action to an extreme, which results in the same negative ativities since there is no relation between the two and no potential for reward.

 

[Sleeping Becca]

When I used the term minimize stress I was not refering to the parents. I was refering to the stress level of the child who is being restrained constrictively in a wheelchair or stroller. If a disabled child can be given greater mobility it reduces stress on the child.

 

[planning06]

With a child who is a darter they will require additional effort as you said. A 1 or 2 year old is more difficult, you can't fully reason with them but you can work to lay the foundation. Like animals, people (including adults) can be trained through reward/punishment.

Right, I agree with this and this is what we have been doing but it takes time and patience as well as persistence. We went to WDW when the darter was 2.5. I was terrified that she would dart off and get lost. I went out and bought a harness and I fully intended to use it if needed. Luckily, it appears that WDW intimidated her (who knew?) and we did not have to use it. Now she is almost 3. I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. That doesn't mean there aren't other parents with kids who are doing everything they can but the child is at a dangerous darting age.

For the most part I left my darter at home unless I had another adult with me. There are other people for whom that is not an option.

 

[cleo]

It wasn't a matter of 'seconds' in the Walsh case. Watch it again.

I'm a mom who 'almost never' took her eyes off her child. He's my one and only, all-my-eggs-in-one-basket, miracle child and I watched him like a hawk. I also lost him at Blizzard Beach when he was 7. He went to slide down the hanging glider at Ski Patrol Training Camp, got scared when it was his turn and decided not to go, then got lost on the way down. I waited at the bottom but never saw him turn around as there were two children in front of him when he ducked out.

Is that my fault, somehow? I don't think so.

Children do funny thing, parents look away for a moment. It happens. It isn't about FAULT. Geez, I'm glad I don't have to be as perfect in real life as some would insist on these boards. But I'd like to meet those who never put one foot wrong in any way. I could take notes and they'd make me a MUCH better parent, I think.

 

[brbenoit]

When I used the term minimize stress I was not refering to the parents. I was refering to the stress level of the child who is being restrained constrictively in a wheelchair or stroller. If a disabled child can be given greater mobility it reduces stress on the child.

Have you ever restrained your child in a stroller? Have you ever restrained your child in a shopping cart? Have you ever restrained your child in a high chair? Have you ever restrained your child in a carseat? Please explain how these types of restraints are okay but a harness is comehow cruel and inhumane or at the very least degrading.

High Chair, Car Seat, shopping cart and stroller all serve a functional as well as safety related purpose. A high chair was used when a child is physically unable to use "adult" furniture at a table. The height was included in order to ease the feeding of the child by the parent.

A car seat is completely a safety issue, it is no more restraining than me using a seat belt and if that can be compared as restraint.

The Stroller and Shopping Cart are designed for mobility, a small child does not have the physical capability to keep up. Shopping cart provides the dual purpose of mobility and storage.

None of these (except the car seat) are used primarily for restraint. I was SO glad when we didn't have to get a stroller at WDW anymore, it was more pain than it was worth, I even gave in and offere to carry rather than lug the thing around.

The sole purpose of the leash is restraint. It was not designed for any other funtional purpose.

 

[planning06]

High Chair, Car Seat, shopping cart and stroller all serve a functional as well as safety related purpose. A high chair was used when a child is physically unable to use "adult" furniture at a table. The height was included in order to ease the feeding of the child by the parent.

A car seat is completely a safety issue, it is no more restraining than me using a seat belt and if that can be compared as restraint.

The Stroller and Shopping Cart are designed for mobility, a small child does not have the physical capability to keep up. Shopping cart provides the dual purpose of mobility and storage.

None of these (except the car seat) are used primarily for restraint. I was SO glad when we didn't have to get a stroller at WDW anymore, it was more pain than it was worth, I even gave in and offere to carry rather than lug the thing around.

The sole purpose of the leash is restraint. It was not designed for any other funtional purpose.

I know many parents that use high chair and car seats as restraints to hold their children in one place for the parent's convenience.

I disagree with the stroller and shopping cart. They are designed for parents convenience. That is not a bad thing. Mobility is a convenience. I think it is kinder for small babies to travel in a sling close to a warm body.

The sole purpose of a harness is safety. It is done by restraining a child while giving him a limited amount of freedom. High chairs, car seats, strollers, and shopping carts all restrain children in the name of convenience and/or safety but they do not offer any amount of freedome to roam.

Again, I feel it is far kinder to allow a child the ability to move around, explore, touch and discover the world around them than to restrain them where no movement other than turning a head or flailing legs and arms is allowed.

 

[Sleeping Becca]

I feel really blessed, that my child has never been missing. I can't really say that it is because of my superior parenting skills or luck. All I know is, you never know how you are going to react untill it happens to you. I never judge another parent because I haven't walked in their shoes. I do have a disabled child and I thank God everyday for sending her to me. It really pains me to see all of the Monday Morning Parenting being done in this thread.

 

[planning06]

I feel really blessed, that my child has never been missing. I can't really say that it is because of my superior parenting skills or luck. All I know is, you never know how you are going to react untill it happens to you. I never judge another parent because I haven't walked in their shoes. I do have a disabled child and I thank God everyday for sending her to me. It really pains me to see all of the Monday Morning Parenting being done in this thread.

I agree. It seems rampant around here. But for the grace of God go I...

 

[Eeyore2003]

It wasn't a matter of 'seconds' in the Walsh case. Watch it again.

I'm a mom who 'almost never' took her eyes off her child. He's my one and only, all-my-eggs-in-one-basket, miracle child and I watched him like a hawk. I also lost him at Blizzard Beach when he was 7. He went to slide down the hanging glider at Ski Patrol Training Camp, got scared when it was his turn and decided not to go, then got lost on the way down. I waited at the bottom but never saw him turn around as there were two children in front of him when he ducked out.

Is that my fault, somehow? I don't think so.

Children do funny thing, parents look away for a moment. It happens. It isn't about FAULT. Geez, I'm glad I don't have to be as perfect in real life as some would insist on these boards. But I'd like to meet those who never put one foot wrong in any way. I could take notes and they'd make me a MUCH better parent, I think.

!!!DITTO!!! Well, said!!!

Why BLAME caring attentive parents.
Why BLAME kids, who will be kids, event though the "attentive parents" have been teaching them all the right things.
Why BLAME CM's who are doing their job and if you ask me are fantastic at it.
Who CARES if a parent feels their child needs a child restraint, would you rather have the child LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GEESH!!!
Why BLAME anyone........ like my sister says, it's called and ACCIDENT, not an ON PURPOSE.

Whether it's losing your child in a crowded place, your child falling and hurting themselves, or any other of the zillions of things parents go through while raising children, these things DO happen, it doesn't make bad parents, children or anybody.

 

[phillybeth]

No...the people who posted that the parents are to blame are RIGHT.
Parents lose kids, period.
If you watch your kids and keep them with you and in your sight of vision at all times, you will not lose them. period.

See my post about Code Adam and you will see why I feel this way and I do not care who disagrees with me.

Let me tell you how I got lost when I was 7 in Disney World. Then YOU tell ME if my mom is to blame.

We were leaving the MK after the parade (only park there was at the time). I was holding hand with BOTH my parents- mom on the right, dad on my left. My mom tripped down a curb, she didn't see it in the dark and through the crowds. When she fell her hand pulled out of mine, and my hand pulled out of my dad's. THAT QUICK, I got pushed along by the crowd. Fortunately, I was old enough to find a CM and tell them what happened- that my mommy fell and I got pushed by the crowds. Less than five minutes later my mom comes limping by with another CM, blood streaming from both knees- she refused medical treatment until she could find me.

So, who's fault was it? My mom, for tripping down a curb? Me, for not being able to 'swim' upstream? I hope nothing ever happens to one of your kids while you are watching them and have 'total control' over the situation

 

[Cool-Beans]

It wasn't a matter of 'seconds' in the Walsh case. Watch it again.

I'm a mom who 'almost never' took her eyes off her child. He's my one and only, all-my-eggs-in-one-basket, miracle child and I watched him like a hawk. I also lost him at Blizzard Beach when he was 7. He went to slide down the hanging glider at Ski Patrol Training Camp, got scared when it was his turn and decided not to go, then got lost on the way down. I waited at the bottom but never saw him turn around as there were two children in front of him when he ducked out.

Is that my fault, somehow? I don't think so.

Children do funny thing, parents look away for a moment. It happens. It isn't about FAULT. Geez, I'm glad I don't have to be as perfect in real life as some would insist on these boards. But I'd like to meet those who never put one foot wrong in any way. I could take notes and they'd make me a MUCH better parent, I think.

If I had something to do, I gathered the kids in front of me. I grabbed hands of ones who weren't old enough to not wander off and had the third in front of me.

Nobody said you were a bad parent...just everyone is different. I was vigilant to the point of paranoia about not losing the kids. Nothing wrong with that.

You want to use your insulting smilies, go ahead. Doesn't make me a liar...or you any better.

 

[all4disney98]

I am saddened to read that parents are teaching their children to make fun of other children. I could go on with this one but enough said...

If someone chooses to put a harness on their child, that is their business. I have never used one but when I see someone at Disney with one, I have thought it was a good idea. You can teach your child until you are blue in the face not to wander and you can keep your eyes on them at all times (don't we all!!). However, crowds happen and the crowds trying to exit the park or a theater at the same time can split anyone up. It has nothing to do with bad parenting as some on this thread are trying to blame.

If you blame parents for all instances of lost children, should we also mention those people that rush out of the park as fast as possible, knocking into people on their way and splitting up families as they weave in and out of the crowds. They don't help the situation and certainly make it harder for a parent to keep their children close as they try to exit the park. But at least they can say they made it back to their resort 10 minutes before me!

 

[brbenoit]

I know many parents that use high chair and car seats as restraints to hold their children in one place for the parent's convenience.

As do I, that way they can go about their business without their kid being an inconvenience.

I disagree with the stroller and shopping cart. They are designed for parents convenience. That is not a bad thing. Mobility is a convenience. I think it is kinder for small babies to travel in a sling close to a warm body.

We were ones who minimized use of stroller/shopping cart. It was a matter of convenience when our daughter wasn't able to walk around the mall/store on her own, or the distance would tire her. I am SO glad to be out of those stages, to me it was more of a hinderance than convenience. Other than the shopping cart which I still use when shopping, just not with a person traveling in it, and I don't plan on giving it up.

Again, I feel it is far kinder to allow a child the ability to move around, explore, touch and discover the world around them than to restrain them where no movement other than turning a head or flailing legs and arms is allowed.

I am willing to agree to disagree. I may not agree with what you choose and vice versa, but I am not calling for a limitation on your ability to do so.