Disturbing financial statistics

[staci]

It is not costing more to "maintain what we've had in the past." The problem is we have/want way more than we used to.

I agree. That is actually my philosophy in my house. For awhile I was really down about NOT being able to have what I had when I lived with my parents (I was raised upper middle class). I ultimately decided that I could live without the big house, but I COULD NOT live without the time at home with my children. My parents were amazingly fortunate, my father is an engineer and was able to provide WAY more than necessary.

So once I made the decision to stay home, I had to look back one more generation to help me organize my priorities. I look to the generation of my grandparents (raising families in the 1950-1960's). In our area, the standard homes built during that era were 3 bedroom ranch homes. Standard family drove one car. As I understand it to have been, most (if not ALL) meals were eaten at home, prepared fresh not prepackaged (which is more expensive). Most children were breastfed (no expensive formula), babies were cloth diapered (no expensive diapers). While the average household had a television, there were no ipods, computers, dvds, videos, sound systems, xboxes, cable television, call waiting, caller id, voicemail, cell phones, etc. Heck, my grandma even MADE all their clothes.

Once we strip away to the bare basics, it CAN be accomplished on one income (at least in our area, I know that living expenses vary throughout the country). It is not for everyone, I get stressed out by having to count every penny and be very frugal. We have clipped away MOST of the expenses that are not necessary, but there are a few I wont budge on (my(9.99 netzero internet is one of them . I also refuse to sew clothing). Once ds goes to school, I am sure that I will enter the workforce, so that we can save more vigorously for retirement, and maybe even afford a few of the luxuries that we have lived without.

The people who could NOT live on one income for sure would be anyone earning around minimum wage. I cant imagine someone having to support a family on $6 an hour. That would be so hard But for many families, like mine, it is POSSIBLE to live on one income, but there are MANY things that must be sacrificed to do so.

 

[dvcgirl]

So true. Just as a for instance, the state government in Florida hires thousands of people under what were originally supposed to be temporary lines. These folks are not benefit eligible, no matter how long they work for the state (often years and years). Florida does this to save money, but the consequence is that people are working (ironically, in public health agencies, among others) for 7-10 bucks an hour with no health insurance and no way to pay for health insurance for themselves or their families. (not to mention no retirement plan, sick or vacation time, etc.).

The average family health insurance premium is now over $12,000 per year. Some of us are lucky enough to have employers who pay most of this, but many people are not. One serious illness and they are bankrupt.

But here's the thing....somewhere in this conversation you'd have to ask....why do they stay in those jobs? I understand that there are only a certain amount of jobs in the country and not everyone can be the CEO of a corporation. But for example, I don't really think many people go into Walmart looking for a cashier's job expecting to support a family. If they are, well, they're going to come up far short.

Also, let's face it, there are lots and lots of people who aren't motivated, aren't "go-getters", whatever you want to call it. They'd rather stay in a job and complain because it's the easier of the options in front of them. There are so many opportunities out there for all of us...to go to school, to improve ourselves and make a better life for ourselves and our families. Even if you decide not to go to college or for some sort of skills training, well, there's just plain hard work. Get into a company and work your way up. If you can't go any further without that degree and you'd like to move up....go to school. And some people simply don't want to put in the work it takes to make that better life.

 

[staci]

But here's the thing....somewhere in this conversation you'd have to ask....why do they stay in those jobs? I understand that there are only a certain amount of jobs in the country and not everyone can be the CEO of a corporation. But for example, I don't really think many people go into Walmart looking for a cashier's job expecting to support a family. If they are, well, they're going to come up far short.

Also, let's face it, there are lots and lots of people who aren't motivated, aren't "go-getters", whatever you want to call it. They'd rather stay in a job and complain because it's the easier of the options in front of them. There are so many opportunities out there for all of us...to go to school, to improve ourselves and make a better life for ourselves and our families. Even if you decide not to go to college or for some sort of skills training, well, there's just plain hard work. Get into a company and work your way up. If you can't go any further without that degree and you'd like to move up....go to school. And some people simply don't want to put in the work it takes to make that better life.

Wow. I totally disagree with this one. I dont know what to say......

I think a lot of people go into Walmart hoping and praying for a job to support their families. In fact, I think MOST of the people working at my walmart ARE supporting families. Many people, regardless of hard work, will never have what it takes to 'work their way up' to being the boss. Many people do not have the aptitute to simply 'go to school' and get a CEO job.

For instance, the gentleman behind the counter at Burger King on Wednesday. A simple order of two hamburger kids meals with white milk took him nearly 5 minutes, and the register total came to $13. After asking for assistance, we got it all worked out, but I could not be angry with this man. He was obviously trying his best, very frustrated, and embarrassed about the situation. I have no doubt that he was putting just as much into his day any CEO. His job was obviously challanging for HIM(and maybe too much so).

It is HORRIBLE to assume that because people work in an environment where the pay is $7-10 an hour, they are not 'motivated' and that they would 'rather stay in the job and complain because it is easier than the options in front of them'.

I would rather think that they are VERY motivated. They are working their BUTTS off, in jobs that many would consider to be undesirable, to earn an income that we have all agreed is NOT enough to sustain a family. THAT takes motivation, to keep trying to succeed, even when the outcome looks impossible.

Anyone who is 'unmotivated' and is 'simply doesnt want to put in the work it takes to make that better life' would stay at home on the couch, knowing that their efforts would never be enough. Those who get up every day, do the best they can with what they have been given, are to be applauded for their effort.

 

[Feralpeg]

Wow. I totally disagree with this one. I dont know what to say......

I think a lot of people go into Walmart hoping and praying for a job to support their families. In fact, I think MOST of the people working at my walmart ARE supporting families. Many people, regardless of hard work, will never have what it takes to 'work their way up' to being the boss. Many people do not have the aptitute to simply 'go to school' and get a CEO job.

For instance, the gentleman behind the counter at Burger King on Wednesday. A simple order of two hamburger kids meals with white milk took him nearly 5 minutes, and the register total came to $13. After asking for assistance, we got it all worked out, but I could not be angry with this man. He was obviously trying his best, very frustrated, and embarrassed about the situation. I have no doubt that he was putting just as much into his day any CEO. His job was obviously challanging for HIM(and maybe too much so).

It is HORRIBLE to assume that because people work in an environment where the pay is $7-10 an hour, they are not 'motivated' and that they would 'rather stay in the job and complain because it is easier than the options in front of them'.

I would rather think that they are VERY motivated. They are working their BUTTS off, in jobs that many would consider to be undesirable, to earn an income that we have all agreed is NOT enough to sustain a family. THAT takes motivation, to keep trying to succeed, even when the outcome looks impossible.

Anyone who is 'unmotivated' and is 'simply doesnt want to put in the work it takes to make that better life' would stay at home on the couch, knowing that their efforts would never be enough. Those who get up every day, do the best they can with what they have been given, are to be applauded for their effort.

I agree. In fact, it is much harder to get those jobs where you can work your way up through a company than it once was. When I first started working at the company I worked at for 30 years, people who wanted to become computer programmers could do so by reading IBM training books and working with the programming staff. No degree was necessary. I had a BA in education, but no training in programming what so ever. I was given the opportunity to learn by doing. I eventually became a systems manager. Many of the executives for this company started out with no degree. Today, that same company will not even consider hiring anyone for a programming job unless they have a 4 year degree. It just isn't that easy any more.

 

[nbodyhome]

I used to be terrible with money - passed down with me from my own family. It took a long time to be really responsible (I am 39 years old now). We have some cc debt, but not terrible - and we are paying it off quickly, it should be paid off next year. We hope to buy a nice house in the next year or two and I'm putting money towards that in CD's. My husband is more into buying things, but I'm the budget person and the saver in the family.

Families that aren't as responsible about saving and debt can pass that down to the next generation. Families that are responsible can do the same thing. I think much of the problem is people buying more and more stuff. How much stuff does anyone need? I didn't go out on Black Friday, I did see a news report where one woman was saying how she wanted to get out there because she wanted her son to have a good Christmas. Well, they showed the son - he was somewhere between 1 and 2 years old. A good Christmas to him would be a toy or two. And even big kids don't need so many things. I was shocked at how much people spend on Christmas - I have 22 on the list and won't spend more than a few hundred dollars total - on nice items, often bought at Target right after the holidays (much less crowded than BF!)

Anyway, as my uncle has told me - it's not what you make, it's what you keep. He and my aunt raised 11 kids, he was extremely good with money and so is the rest of the family on that side.

 

[PrincessKitty1]

But here's the thing....somewhere in this conversation you'd have to ask....why do they stay in those jobs? I understand that there are only a certain amount of jobs in the country and not everyone can be the CEO of a corporation. But for example, I don't really think many people go into Walmart looking for a cashier's job expecting to support a family. If they are, well, they're going to come up far short.

Also, let's face it, there are lots and lots of people who aren't motivated, aren't "go-getters", whatever you want to call it. They'd rather stay in a job and complain because it's the easier of the options in front of them. There are so many opportunities out there for all of us...to go to school, to improve ourselves and make a better life for ourselves and our families. Even if you decide not to go to college or for some sort of skills training, well, there's just plain hard work. Get into a company and work your way up. If you can't go any further without that degree and you'd like to move up....go to school. And some people simply don't want to put in the work it takes to make that better life.

I completely disagree, having worked with these folks. MOST of them were doing the best they could. MOST people would not be working at $7-10/hour jobs with no benefits if they were capable of doing better.

MOST companies don't have a career ladder that allows one to work one's way up, and if they do, MOST people are not going to be capable. MOST people have average intelligence (by definition) and MOST people will have an average income (by definition). This doesn't mean they don't "deserve" to have health insurance or other benefits. It simply means that economic power is in the hands of the "haves," and as long as they have their way, the "have-nots" will have low-paying, unbenefitted jobs.

And MOST people do not get rich off their husbands' stock options, and then waggle their fingers at the have-nots.

 

[MrsPete]

I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with all of this.

It is not costing more to "maintain what we've had in the past." The problem is we have/want way more than we used to. Homes are far bigger. Cars have more bells and whistles. TVs are huge. Exotic vacations have become the norm. People eat out more. I could go on and on, and I can give you actual stats if you want them. The reality is that life is not more expensive overall if you compare apples to apples. But if you want 2 large SUVs in the driveway of your McMansion, a surround sound home theater system with a 61" plasma screen, a Viking stove and SubZero fridge in the kitchen and you want to vacation on the French Riviera next summer, then yes, you will spend more than your parents who drove a Buick, lived in a modest home and spent summers at the nearby beach.

Americans, by and large, have forgotten how to distinguish wants from needs. That's what is getting folks into trouble. Having credit easily available isn't a bad thing by itself. It only becomes a bad thing when consumers misuse that credit to buy things that they can't afford.

I have to agree. My house is comparable to the one in which I grew up, and we drive used cars just like my parents did . . . but we have cell phones, cable TV, and other things that my parents never paid for when we were kids. We eat out more, we have larger wardrobes -- and my husband and I PURPOSEFULLY have MUCH LESS than the people around us!

The reality is that clothing and other consumer goods require a smaller percentage of our paychecks today. Food costs -- that is, grocery store foods -- have decreased. The one area in which we are paying more is taxes.

DisneySteve, I think you hit this one on the head.

 

[MrsPete]

I completely agree with you. I own a house which is the same size as the one I grew up in. In fact, my house was built in 1967, the year I was born. My house cost 4X what my parents paid for theirs in 1983.

I could say the same thing; however, my salary is also much, much higher than their salary was "back in the day".

 

[DMRick]

.
Oh my gosh..I am soooo sitting on my typing hands, so Beth doesn't have to close this thread.

But here's the thing....somewhere in this conversation you'd have to ask....why do they stay in those jobs? I understand that there are only a certain amount of jobs in the country and not everyone can be the CEO of a corporation. But for example, I don't really think many people go into Walmart looking for a cashier's job expecting to support a family. If they are, well, they're going to come up far short.

Also, let's face it, there are lots and lots of people who aren't motivated, aren't "go-getters", whatever you want to call it. They'd rather stay in a job and complain because it's the easier of the options in front of them. There are so many opportunities out there for all of us...to go to school, to improve ourselves and make a better life for ourselves and our families. Even if you decide not to go to college or for some sort of skills training, well, there's just plain hard work. Get into a company and work your way up. If you can't go any further without that degree and you'd like to move up....go to school. And some people simply don't want to put in the work it takes to make that better life.

 

[staceyfe]

Many people, regardless of hard work, will never have what it takes to 'work their way up' to being the boss. Many people do not have the aptitute to simply 'go to school' and get a CEO job.

I can testify that this is very true. I work in a highly specialized medical office and some of the clerical people with whom I work simply would not (and in some cases are not) be able to handle more complex job duties. But they are hard working, and do the best they can.

Why do you think that is? And I'm not being judgemental or sarcastic - I'm asking sincerely. Why is it that two college educated professionals have only a 1-month emergency fund? Where is the money going? Do you live in a particularly expensive area, like the DC metro area maybe?

I'd be curious to see an answer to this question as well.

 

[MrsPete]

Once we strip away to the bare basics, it CAN be accomplished on one income (at least in our area, I know that living expenses vary throughout the country). It is not for everyone, I get stressed out by having to count every penny and be very frugal. We have clipped away MOST of the expenses that are not necessary, but there are a few I wont budge on (my(9.99 netzero internet is one of them . I also refuse to sew clothing). Once ds goes to school, I am sure that I will enter the workforce, so that we can save more vigorously for retirement, and maybe even afford a few of the luxuries that we have lived without.

This makes perfect sense to me. I'll throw out one disclaimer though: You can't do this if you have credit card debt. To make this "back to basics" spending work, you have to be able to start with a blank slate. If you're paying for yesterday's mistakes today, then you're starting out behind -- in that case, the only answer is more income AND cutting back.

 

[dvcgirl]

I completely disagree, having worked with these folks. MOST of them were doing the best they could. MOST people would not be working at $7-10/hour jobs with no benefits if they were capable of doing better.

MOST companies don't have a career ladder that allows one to work one's way up, and if they do, MOST people are not going to be capable. MOST people have average intelligence (by definition) and MOST people will have an average income (by definition). This doesn't mean they don't "deserve" to have health insurance or other benefits. It simply means that economic power is in the hands of the "haves," and as long as they have their way, the "have-nots" will have low-paying, unbenefitted jobs.

And MOST people do not get rich off their husbands' stock options, and then waggle their fingers at the have-nots.

Really and truly...I bring up some honest thoughts, that many people are most definitely thinking.... and you feel the need to attack. It's clear that you have no understanding of how stock options work or how they are granted. My DH and I have been contributing to our 401Ks since our early 20s....whether or not stock options are a part of the equation is a non-issue as far as our retirement savings is concerned. We work hard, we save and we invest to the best of our ability.

 

[staci]

This makes perfect sense to me. I'll throw out one disclaimer though: You can't do this if you have credit card debt. To make this "back to basics" spending work, you have to be able to start with a blank slate. If you're paying for yesterday's mistakes today, then you're starting out behind -- in that case, the only answer is more income AND cutting back.

I very much agree with this. I guess since I have never had cc debt, it is easy for me to forget about those who are paying for their previous mistakes. We are also blessed to not have any school loans; my parents had a college fund for me I was able to use, and dh worked full time through school and followed a 'pay as you go' strategy. We were very blessed to graduate without those bills. I am working very hard to save so that ds can say the same. IF we had financial aid to pay off, I THINK we could still afford our lifestyle, with the exception that we wouldnt be able to save for ds's college yet.

 

[DMRick]

I just want to add to this that there is cc debt and there is CC DEBT. I'm pretty sure you mean those that are having trouble meeting anything but the most basic payment .

This makes perfect sense to me. I'll throw out one disclaimer though: You can't do this if you have credit card debt. To make this "back to basics" spending work, you have to be able to start with a blank slate. If you're paying for yesterday's mistakes today, then you're starting out behind -- in that case, the only answer is more income AND cutting back.

 

[dvcgirl]

Wow. I totally disagree with this one. I dont know what to say......

I think a lot of people go into Walmart hoping and praying for a job to support their families. In fact, I think MOST of the people working at my walmart ARE supporting families. Many people, regardless of hard work, will never have what it takes to 'work their way up' to being the boss. Many people do not have the aptitute to simply 'go to school' and get a CEO job.

For instance, the gentleman behind the counter at Burger King on Wednesday. A simple order of two hamburger kids meals with white milk took him nearly 5 minutes, and the register total came to $13. After asking for assistance, we got it all worked out, but I could not be angry with this man. He was obviously trying his best, very frustrated, and embarrassed about the situation. I have no doubt that he was putting just as much into his day any CEO. His job was obviously challanging for HIM(and maybe too much so).

It is HORRIBLE to assume that because people work in an environment where the pay is $7-10 an hour, they are not 'motivated' and that they would 'rather stay in the job and complain because it is easier than the options in front of them'.

I would rather think that they are VERY motivated. They are working their BUTTS off, in jobs that many would consider to be undesirable, to earn an income that we have all agreed is NOT enough to sustain a family. THAT takes motivation, to keep trying to succeed, even when the outcome looks impossible.

Anyone who is 'unmotivated' and is 'simply doesnt want to put in the work it takes to make that better life' would stay at home on the couch, knowing that their efforts would never be enough. Those who get up every day, do the best they can with what they have been given, are to be applauded for their effort.

But let me ask you this...do you really and truly believe that every person out there who has intelligence and ability works as hard as they can? Seriously, you can't possibly believe that.

I have people in my own family who are very unmotivated...lol. Really and truly, smart people, goofed off in high school, never went to college and now all in their 40s and struggling. It's really easy to look back and see what happened, where they went wrong. And now, they sit around and complain just like a whole lot of other people who have been 'wronged'.

Do you really think that every person working at Walmart, or BurgerKing or McDonald's has reached their ultimate potential? I'd argue that you have a much darker outlook on humanity than I do. I think that *most* of us can work a little harder, a little smarter, maybe even spend a little less, and possibly even save a little more.

 

[can'twait]

Well, this is an interesting thread. I maintain that credit cards and malls are EVIL!

I started out with a $500 limit in college with NO job. As my balance increased, the credit limit increased magically, until both were unreal. Once you get into the habit of spending with a cc while you are young, it is VERY difficult to change your ways. That is the major problem with college kids and credit cards, and the banks know it. It creates a lifelong vicious cycle of debt and no disposable income, before you've even started working. My DH inherited a BAD money management gene. Both of his parents ended up in trouble and we were heading down the same path. He has changed some of his ways, but those old habits die hard. He calls me cheap, but I tell him cheap is when you have it and don't spend it. We don't have it, and we should start acting like it! I have to admit, when you are working like dogs outside the home and then you come home and raise kids and take care of household "stuff", you are so tired at the end of the day, that I think many people just go through life without thinking some things through ahead of time, like money. And once you get into that habit, it's hard to break. I think we've done that to some degree. We've been married 10 years and we are no better off than when we started, and we are both to blame. We are better off than some, but we could have made a few better choices. We live in a very expensive area and keeping up with the Jones', even family, is just nuts. Sometimes I see the way other people live and I just don't understand what we are doing wrong. They complain about not having money, but they go to Vegas and buy "the best" for their kid and take her to get massages and spend $1000 on a winter wardrobe for her. They looked at me like I had two heads when I said I had spent $100 on a wardrobe for my son and I do laundry so he can get through the week. I guess we make different choices. It makes me feel better knowing that they are probably also one paycheck away from disaster!

Steve, as always, I love your threads. You are a financial inspiration to us all!

 

[TNKBELL]

DVCGIRL>>>>>I have to agree on this one, there are some cases I'm sure where they are in a real bind and can't find anything, but I believe in most cases this is only temporary, with prayer, hard work and good old fashioned effort, I think we can exceed our own expectations and our family's as well.

 

[HaleyB]

I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with all of this.

It is not costing more to "maintain what we've had in the past." The problem is we have/want way more than we used to. Homes are far bigger. Cars have more bells and whistles. TVs are huge. Exotic vacations have become the norm. People eat out more. I could go on and on, and I can give you actual stats if you want them. The reality is that life is not more expensive overall if you compare apples to apples. But if you want 2 large SUVs in the driveway of your McMansion, a surround sound home theater system with a 61" plasma screen, a Viking stove and SubZero fridge in the kitchen and you want to vacation on the French Riviera next summer, then yes, you will spend more than your parents who drove a Buick, lived in a modest home and spent summers at the nearby beach.

Americans, by and large, have forgotten how to distinguish wants from needs. That's what is getting folks into trouble. Having credit easily available isn't a bad thing by itself. It only becomes a bad thing when consumers misuse that credit to buy things that they can't afford.

While I agree with what you are saying for the most part I think you are wrong on another level. Yes, there are lots of people that just want more and go into debt because of it, but that is not the whole picture. I think it is harder for the middle class to hang on to what they have than it was 30-40 years ago. Give me your numbers and source, I would love to be wrong.

 

[Debbie]

Steve, you give us a great deal to think about. And with a humanity included. Thank you.

I remember my parents being aghast when I got my first credit card. I explained that, being paid once a month, and never making those bankers' hours, this was the way to go....and I was right. I managed very well. My sister, on the other hand, did not. It took her years, and loans from Mom, to get that cleared up. Both from the same household with the same models, but different results.

My own children are the same. I have a credit card that gave us cards for the oldest two. At 17, after a year of abusing MY credit card (he paid me back for most things, but was charging cigarettes ) I took my son's from him. My daughter has had hers since she was 15 (19 now). I finally got around to getting one for the third child-he has it for emergencies and paying my gas, only. Personalities, along with circumstance, dictate how one uses a credit card.

I think that *most* of us can work a little harder, a little smarter, maybe even spend a little less, and possibly even save a little more.

I don't see many people arguing with you on this comment. I do think that it is very presumptious, though, to assume that because people are working the blue collar/service jobs they lack ambition. (At least that's how I'm interpreting your words. If I'm wrong, I apologize.) Personalities and circumstance dictate our employment opportunities, too.

 

[staci]

But let me ask you this...do you really and truly believe that every person out there who has intelligence and ability works as hard as they can? Seriously, you can't possibly believe that.

I have people in my own family who are very unmotivated...lol. Really and truly, smart people, goofed off in high school, never went to college and now all in their 40s and struggling. It's really easy to look back and see what happened, where they went wrong. And now, they sit around and complain just like a whole lot of other people who have been 'wronged'.

Do you really think that every person working at Walmart, or BurgerKing or McDonald's has reached their ultimate potential? I'd argue that you have a much darker outlook on humanity than I do. I think that *most* of us can work a little harder, a little smarter, maybe even spend a little less, and possibly even save a little more.[\QUOTE]

Of course I dont think that every person works as hard as they can. However, I DONT believe that all lazy people are members of the lowest tax bracket. In fact, I would go as far as to say that most of those people (those working but earning very little) work as hard or harder for what they recieve.

I was simply replying to your accusatory thread that people working in $7-$10 jobs are lazy.

But here's the thing....somewhere in this conversation you'd have to ask....why do they stay in those jobs? I understand that there are only a certain amount of jobs in the country and not everyone can be the CEO of a corporation. But for example, I don't really think many people go into Walmart looking for a cashier's job expecting to support a family. If they are, well, they're going to come up far short.

Also, let's face it, there are lots and lots of people who aren't motivated, aren't "go-getters", whatever you want to call it. They'd rather stay in a job and complain because it's the easier of the options in front of them. There are so many opportunities out there for all of us...to go to school, to improve ourselves and make a better life for ourselves and our families. Even if you decide not to go to college or for some sort of skills training, well, there's just plain hard work. Get into a company and work your way up. If you can't go any further without that degree and you'd like to move up....go to school. And some people simply don't want to put in the work it takes to make that better life. .[\QUOTE]


I completely stand by every word that I said in my previous post. To assume that the correct path for every person in a lower wage earning job is to 'go to college' or 'work their way up to be the boss' is unrealistic and wrong.

It sounds like you have a few 'bad apples' in your family. However, I would be very careful to not judge every person by them. By your own words, your family members are " Really and truly, smart people, goofed off in high school, never went to college and now all in their 40s and struggling". That, of course, is sad that those people really fell short of what they could have accomplished. But not many people working in lower income jobs now are 'smart goof offs'. In many cases, they are people who were not blessed with the same level of intelligence or life experiences as you or I.

Yes, I think the gentleman at Burger King CAN get better at his job. Of course, over time, he will gain more confidence with the register. He will learn other aspects of the restuarant, and be more comfortable in his job. But I would think that there is a good chance that regardless of the promotions in his future, he will still fall into the $7-$10 category. And that does NOT make him lazy, unmotivated, nor does it mean that he is not WILLING to put in work to give himself a better life.

I would never put someone down for doing the best they can in this world, regardless of income.