DisneySea Sells Out

[Another Voice]

Okay Baron, you’re right. Mr. Eisner has often exceeded my expectations and he continues to lower the bar on an almost daily basis now. Somehow, I don’t think that’s the direction Walt intended things to go but I’m just happy there’s some kind of movement these days.

There are plans, but there are always plans. The real issue is if Eisner has the willingness to do anything about them. I mean, ‘Mission: Space’ had a really good plan for a while and they could easily put that one back if they really wanted to. The only glimmer of hope is that The Company is acting very erratically these days. Mr. Eisner knows he must do something big to counter a lot of negative events so far this year – California Adventure, ‘Pearl Harbor’, GO.com, the meltdown in Animation, and the expected poor reception for Disney Studios Paris. At WDW there’s internal debate (as always) between expanding the existing parks and building new ones (which tend to generate more cash). You may see a new gate (which is not the same as a park) before you’ll see a major addition to an existing park.

Personally, I think Mr. Eisner is much, much more interested in playing Media Mogul than he is in the theme parks. If anything is mentioned about the parks, it will either be before a quarterly earnings announcement or before the stockholder’s meeting. Until then Mr. Eisner is much more interested in dressing up as a Power Ranger and pretending he has a real stake in AT&T.

P.S. A new rumor is saying that Disney is now going to actively hype DisneySea. They figure that most on Wall Street don’t understand the arrangement between Disney and Oriental Land Co., so all of the analysts are going to assume that DisneySea’s success is a good thing for The Mouse and take away some the sting of California’s failure. Cynical, but it will probably work.

 

[Captain Crook]

Disney Seas success IS a good thing for the Mouse...Percentages are percentages...

 

[larworth]

thedscoop

Speaking of details, any more about the environmental impact permits. Do they specifically mention certain parcels of land. It might be interesting to see how these match up with some of the rumors/master plans.

In my industry we would usually not try to get permits unless we had some very concrete thoughts about building something. No sense involving the authorities unless you have to.

Anyone every follow their permit application patterns (I assume these get filed somewhere with public access) to see if they are a reasonable indicator of future plans and how far in the future they typically do this type of thing? Also, are there permit differences if they plan to build another hotel versus some type of attraction venue?

AV

Help me out a little here, I'm a little slow today. Can you give me an example of what you mean by another gate that is not a park.


I guess I don't see any downside yet of TDS not being a smashing success. While they will continue to remind themselves about the differences between the two markets, at some level it has to create some doubt about what is possible here. It's success will never be enough to get us a domestic TDS, but if it makes them put another 10% into their next effort than we are all the better for it. I guess the only downside is that at 7% it may take a couple of years before they will have saved up enough to buy more media properties. Darn!

I think I heard that Disney is raising about 7.5B in new debt? I assume much of this is related to the Fox acquisition? I know there were interested in refinancing the existing $2B in debt Fox had on the books. No chance this is kitty money for an ATT partnership is there?

We all know that understanding customer likes is a trickly art. However, I'm continually surprised to hear about some of the miscalculations. Disney made huge mistakes in understanding what Europeans would want in a park, it seems OLC had some of the same problems with TDL, and of course we have the DCA situation. Does Disney not ask the right questions on all of these market surveys, or what?

 

[DisDuck]

scoop, your plans for May 2002 might actually overlap with some tentative plans of mine. I am trying to convince my daughters chorus teacher to take a WDW trip instead of competing in Boston next May. So (with fingers) crossed we may be there next May for an extended weekend and again in June on family vacation.

 

[Another Voice]

So big permits have been issued – permits like the one’s you’d need to build a big new Vacation Club resort or even a skateboarder day care center?

“Gates” is a term used to described any area that the guest must pay to enter. Pleasure Island, Typhoon Lagoon, Wide World of Sports are all considered “gates”. The Magic Kingdom and Epcot are technically both “gates” too, but the term “park” is used to indicate their larger size. No one’s come up with a good term yet for the “freebie” areas like the Boardwalk and Disney West Side (because Disney really wants to make them “gates” but the tenants would scream too loudly). Another difference between a gate and a freebie zone is that a gate attraction is mostly Disney-owned where a freebie area is mostly leased-out space. And there have been some suggestions about building “additional ticket” areas within a park – a gate within a gate.

As for future plans, everything depends on California Adventure. All of you way out on the other coast may complain that it’s not your problem, but it really is. Mr. Pressler’s bonus is based on the performance of Attractions & Resorts as a whole and many see no reason not to share the pain throughout the entire division. The summer for DCA turned out far worse than anyone’s nightmare version and the debate is on about how to fix it. One side wants just to do minor tweaking and hopes things work themselves out in the end (like Pleasure Island), the other side wants major investments to fix the place (like Euro Disney). Add to that the corporate embarrassment of DisneySea – which is really being felt in Burbank and Anaheim – and the whole situation becomes unpredictable. It’s become your basic corporate fight about how much money there is and who gets most of it.

For WDW you might hear some sort of announcement at the start of the Walt 100 marketing campaign just to tie into the whole “… will never be completed as long as there’s imagination left in the world” tag line. Whether you’ll be astounded or disappointed has yet to be determined, just don’t expect to sail on the ‘S.S. Columbia’.

 

[larworth]

AV

You must of worked on one too many suspense screenplays. You've got the schtick down pat.

 

[YoHo]

Sorry I'm late. I'm still readjusting from my Week and a half of Wisconsin fun wherein I didn't even think about Disney once. (didn't even bring my WDW MSEP T-shirt)


I have a couple of observations.
First, My initial reaction when reading AV's post was disgust at the 30 day pre-buy period and limited Park Hopping. Park Hopping may have really taken off with The studios, but As americans always do, we take it as a right to do so. As others have pointed out, Japan has the highest attendence Disney park already and none of the non-disney attractions that Florida has. Even with the new Universal park which is at least a good hour away as I understand it.
I would be willing to bet also that most of those tickets, the vast majority of them in fact are being sold to Japanese and other Pacific Rim/ Asian Tourists. I'm quite sure very few Europeans and Americans are making Japanese travel plans soley to check out the new park (granted that the statisical sample on sites like the DIS is skewed)

All that combined means that to me, the phenomenal numbers mean little in terms of American parks.

Further, AV, while I wholheartedly agree that Exceed there expectations is the only way to build Parks, I don't think TDS has proven that yet. My impression is that in the land of the Rising Sun, Eisners Slap the brand on the spinner Could have nearly the same amount of pre-opening buildup. Its the longevity that suffers and we won't know that until after the place has been open a while.



I also agree that another Theme Park in orlando is a mistake right now. In fact, I suspect that we'll see very little going on in Florida no matter what direction the company moves. The only thing I expect is for SOMETHING to happen with DCA.

think about this, Bookings are at record lows across orlando. Disney isn't alone here. Walt's Hundreth is maybe bringing up bookings (I just got a postcard in the mail giving me a rate of like $183 a night at Animal Kingdom Lodge during November and December. So I doubt bookings are all that good.) Next, you announce your building a new gate or beastly Kingdom. How many bookings will they lose as people shift there Vacations back another year or two?

Further, I think that its safe to say that Orlando has reached a platue in terms of Length of Vacation. Even if AK in MGM were the greatest parks in the world, I have a hard time believing that people would add more days to there vacation. After all, I have noticd any companies spontaneously uping the number of vacation days employees get. Nor Schools reducing the amount of homework given when students take a vacation during the school year.


All of this leads me to believe that the only thing that may change as a result of DisneySea's success is DCA and that's a big maybe.

 

[Another Voice]

Why the “disgust” over Tokyo’s ticket policy? The thirty-day window is a way of guaranteeing admission to ticket holders (there were some really bad sell-out days when TDL first opened), and the limited park hopping is exactly what Disney tried to do with Disneyland and California Adventure. Yes, most of the tickets sold to DisneySea are for local residents, just like most of the tickets sold to Disneyland are to Southern Californians.

As for the “it’s because the Japanese are Disney-crazed fools” spin – are they more so than us Californians? Most of us have grown-up with Disneyland and an annual visit is all but written into the state’s constitution. When ‘Indiana Jones’ opened, the wait time was FIVE HOURS. The opening of ‘Splash Mountain’ had a line the stretched all the way to Main Street. Randomly stop ten people on the street and nine of them will be able to finish the line “When hinges creak in doorless…”. There is no difference between the audience for DisneySea and California Adventure. The difference is in the product.

The first task of any entertainment is to make people want to see the show. DisneySea has already proven that it’s capable of doing that by its ticket sales. And DCA has shown that it’s lacking by its own ticket sale figures. There was more advertising and marketing out here for DCA than for any other product that people can remember. It all fell flat be people saw the finished product and they are not interested – branded or not.

 

[AKemel]

I was reading the latest issue of Disney magazine on TDS. 23 new attractions including

Aquasphere- sounds like Spaceship earth
Sinbads Seven Voyages- "Pirates meet It's a Small World"
Flounder's Flying Fish coaster- "modeled after Barnstormer"
S.S. Columbia- "enjoy a meal"
Storm rider- "like Star Tours... 3 times larger"
Indiana Jones Adventure- "different from Disneyland, electromagnetic and not hydraulic power"
Magic Lamp Theater- "first came Muppets... now Aladdin"
Mysterious Island- "20,000 Leagues under the Sea"
Fortress Exploration- "play area crammed... with games, exhibits"
Caravan Carousel- "marry-go-round...two story carousel"

I do not know what other attractions are like, but the ones that are mentioned do sound like Walt himself could have designed them. Or may be he did...

 

[Another Voice]

Most of the attractions in DisneySea have been bouncing around in Imagineering for a while, so there’s a very definite “Disney” feel to them. There are several other sites that are listing lengthy and detailed descriptions of each attraction and those come off much better than just a single picture on MousePlanet. Everyone’s also forgotten about ‘Journey to the Center to the Earth’ – another major E-ticket ride. The inside of the Little Mermaids Kingdom is tremendous. Yes, they use purchased ride systems but the effect is that like Fantasyland rather than Paradise Pier. As for the attraction count – I will gladly take DisneySea’s 23 over California Adventure’s 23 (for which they count the tortilla making exhibit, the bread making exhibit, a commercial for squashed grapes, and a fiberglass tractor that kids can climb on) or whatever number they’re fabricating at NATAZU this week. Sometimes it really is quality, not quantity that counts.

On the Swan and Dolphin – how does hiring Michael Graves show Eisner’s “vision”? Graves was already a renowned architect with several important buildings, just like all the other architect’s Eisner was hiring to build The Monuments to Mike (old company joke – there’s a reason why the Dolphin is a pyramid shape). Does wearing an Armani suit, Ralph Lauren shirts and Calvin Kline underwear make me a fashion genius?

 

[Captain Crook]

AKernal, thanks for the post. It seems that it IS ok for Disney to buy off the shelf and use the same old ideas, as long as they spend lots and lots of money...Which leads me to believe that DCA probably can be saved with some serious imagineer money, although if Eisner does it I wonder how it will be judged around here?

Again, Scoop, I agree. TDS looks great and no expense was spared in the theming, but it is full of the tried and true...Just what the Japanese audience wants.

As for Eisner / Graves...No, AV, wearing Armani suits & Kline underwear don't make you a fashion genius, but they show good taste. Should Eisner not get the credit for hiring the people who fulfill a vision (whoever's vision that might be)? The S/D are truly unique pieces of archetechture as is WL & AKL...Who other than Mikey should get the credit?

Lastly, IMO, TDS IS Disney. It was Disney designed, it's content is Disney & Disney controlled and it bears the Disney name. Despite the fact that OLC holds the major stake they also have the major risk. Eisner made a great deal by geting someone else to foot the bill his company wasn't willing to foot and in return got to (1) Put imagineering to the test (2 ) Build a complete Park in direct contrast to DCA & AK & evaluate the positives & negatives (3) Earn 7-10% forever for very little risk (4) analyze the good and the bad decisions in a full Park venture that Disney didn't have to pay for. When I see the sign Toyko Disney Sea...I still think Disney, not OLC. The Disney Company can and will learn a lot from TDS. I'm sure The Disney Company wouldn't mind having three or four other opportunities to build full scale Parks, risk free for a guaranteed 7-10% return.

Lastly, AV, more of the AK slamming? AK IS quality, maybe not enough quantity!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ya just gotta love this guy!! And believe me, he's even better in person!!! Just take this for example. My good friend the Captain says:

Which leads me to believe that DCA probably can be saved with some serious imagineer money, although if Eisner does it I wonder how it will be judged around here?

Man-Oh-Man!! In one sentence he not only has Ei$ner saving DCA, but it's such a sure thing, in his mind, that he no longer is musing about the great things Ei$ner will do (it is a given), but instead how he will be judged here on the DIS when he does them! You just don't see that kind of optimism every day!!

Captain!! What makes you think, given their recent track record, that they will do it right!!?? PLEASE, give me an example! Just one little thing that I can hang my hat on and I'll cross the lanes of dangerous traffic and find myself a seat in car #1!!

The S/D are truly unique pieces of architecture as is WL & AKL...Who other than Mikey should get the credit?

WHOA!!!!! Hold the phone my good Captain! You aren't seriously suggesting that the Swan and Dolphin can be compared to WL or AKL!!!?? Are you? WL and AKL are perfect examples of what a Disney resort is supposed to be (other than price). The Swan and the Dolphin is the perfect example of what a Disney resort is NOT! You can find interesting architecture in every big city in the world! Disney isn't that! You can find creative designs everywhere! Perhaps not exactly like these two… ah… well… let's say buildings, but some even more innovative. The point is they are not Disney!!

Where is the theme!! Where is the detail that is supposed to transport you to some exotic location? Where is the imagination and richness in style that makes you believe that you are no longer part of the real world? I can bring you to at least a dozen hotels in Chicago that equal (or maybe even best) the feel of the Swan or Dolphin. What's exotic, foreign, fascinating, alien, romantic, unusual, strange, mysterious, wondrous, different or even bizarre and eccentric about them? Nothing!! Pretty ordinary if you ask me!!

Add to all the above that they absolutely destroy the sight line in EPCOT and they go from being mundane and pedestrian to hideous eye-sores that should be demolished at the first opportunity!! And besides that (in case I wasn't clear) - I don't like them!

Scoop says:

They may be misplaced in their current setting (I've never said Eisner was necessarily effective in his vision) but they were risky, cutting edge, original--something which many of you all beg and plead for only to rip apart when presented with.

Hmmm. Risky and cutting edge? I really don't think so, but let's say, for argument's sake, that you are correct. They are indeed 'risky and cutting edge'. But there's one more crucial element that is necessary for success. IT HAS TO WORK!! And just as you say, because of placement, they don't work! Plain and simple. I wouldn't call that vision. I'd label it FAILED VISION. I'm afraid two (risky and cutting edge) out of three just doesn't make it in this case.

What's worse, of course, is that they introduced 'non-Disney' structures to the property. And that made it much easier and more acceptable to construct a Motel 6 with a 40 foot guitar and call it Disney theme!! Kind of sad, don't you think?

 

[Another Voice]

Does anyone know why it took so long for the Tokyo Disneyland Resort to open up a second gate? Michael Eisner’s “vision”.

For most of the last 15 years, Eisner refused to allow Oriental Land Company the permission to build another park. For the last 15 years, Eisner was demanding that he be granted an equity ownership in the new park (he’s called TDL the worst decision ever made by the previous management). Eisner HATES the idea that he only gets 5% for all that the Disney brand does (and it comes in devalued Yen as well). For the last ten years (and still to this day), the only park he considered worthwhile was a two-thirds clone of the Disney/MGM Studios. Yes, that was Eisner’s grand “vision” – three attractions, four stage shows and a restaurant. It was going to be his park, his “vision” and his profits. And the Japanese said told him to go jump in a lake.

For the last year, high level Disney executives have been calling the Japanese “stupid”, “crazy”, “insane” and “misguided” over their decision to spend as much as they did on DisneySea. Check out the PR piece on Paul Pressler from that other website or even check Marty Sklar’s comments within the last month. In the next breadth they praise their own decision to create the parking lot kiddie funland as “the blueprint for the future”. Where is there any indication that Eisner somehow is shrewdly using the Japanese’s money to refine his “master plan”? Has anyone heard any plans to take the best of DisneySea attractions and show and bring them to the U.S.? Perhaps the “shrewd business strategy” line makes nice corporate spin and it may even make people feel better, but it’s not true.

If anything, the Oriental Land Company is the shrewd ones – they lock up the best people in the business, force someone else to spend all the money to keep the brand alive, pick and choose concepts that have been worked on for years, get a huge fan base for free, and then they get to keep 95% of the money!!!!! OLC doesn’t have to worry about the blowing more money on films, fixing the Stores, shareholder lawsuits over dot com disasters, riots in Paris, paying off the latest golden parachute – but they get all the benefits of the Disney name! Eisner gets stuck with the entire overhead; OLC gets to skim off the money.

For all the talk about grand vision and quality, no one seems to be jumping at the chance to see Eisner’s latest masterpiece – California Adventure. Here, just a few hours away, is a brand new theme park – filled with all the Disney magic, all the cutting edge excitement, brimming with all that Eisner “vision” that everyone claims to love so passionately. With all the credit being given out for hotels, stage plays, cruise ships and off-property resorts, no one seems to want to experience that “vision” in its purest form. Where are all those Animal Kingdom fans? Who doesn’t see the “Disney” in the place and why haven’t they hopped a plane out here? Come on folks – come see the “vision” in the warm California sun. You can even have my half of the tortilla after the tour.

 

[larworth]

Hey, what gives. Here I am trying to have this nice dream about some beautiful park in some exotic location when all of these images of dolphins and swans keep getting in the way? Just kidding.

Yes, the pictures are amazing, but I'm very interested in reading some ride reviews. I'm surprised these haven't been included as part of the mix.

thedscoop

I started having similar thoughts. Boy I hope they didn't blow all their budget on theming and short shift the ride side of the equation.

The rides we have been exposed to in the pictures do seem a little pedestrian (mermaidland flat rides, the aquatopia boats, the kiddie coaster). Ahh, but we haven't seen much of the big E tickets. Is there one ride that is supposed to break any new ground, as Spiderman did?

On the ride selection process for the park. Were most of the rides we see part of the early DS plans or did OLC get a chance to poke through whatever WDI had in inventory at that time and pick their favorites. People keep talking about all these great ride condepts sitting in WDI. Is what we are seeing in the TDS E ticket rides reflective of this war chest?

 

[hopemax]

>Yes, the pictures are amazing, but I'm very interested in reading some ride reviews. I'm surprised these haven't been included as part of the mix.

The people who have posted about DisneySea on Laughing Place haven't been willing to share many ride reviews because they don't want to ruin the sense of discovery for anyone. Remember your first visit to a Disney park, when you didn't know what was inside the building or around the corner, and how mouth-dropping and mind-blowing it was? That's what they are trying to protect. They are also hesitant to share disappointments since they saw the park in preview form, and are allowing for effects that aren't working yet to be added in the next couple of months.

There is a thread on MousePlanet http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?threadid=1443 that does include some ride spoilers.

 

[Captain Crook]

Scoop! Stop taking words out of my mouth (lol).

I too, wouldn't defend Eisner as rigidly as I seem if the Eisner haters would give credit where due, but when it has to do with Eisner the standard for many people just rises to an unbelievable level. If DCA were successful & making some money, many of your attitudes still wouldn't change, and that's what bothers me.

As for TDS, I have a hard believing the Disney Money Boys are sad about the TDS deal, they must have got what they wanted or why did they acquiesce? The ball was theirs to take home. No Mickey Mouse no Disney Seas. Come on, The Disney Company stands to make some nice cash from this venture (year after year after year) that cost them very little.

Now, Scoop did get right to the heart of what makes the S/D different. Like it or don't like it, that's fine, but give it its due, too. It is truly unique, again whimsical and while not technically Disney, I no longer find it out of place at all. The fountains, waterfalls and landscaping are spectacular and just look at the outline against the night sky! The lamp lit dolphins & swans, the huge backlit water falls...It IS magnificent (if you appreciate that sort of thing - I do).

Lastly, Landbaron wonders why I'm still so confident that DCA will be corrected. Well, simple math, I guess. Disney needs a money maker not a tax write-off and as scoop mentioned I too, firmly believe Mickey wants to go out a hero not a zero. Therefore, it stands to reason that he must reinvent himself and resurrect the Company at least one more time.

 

[YoHo]

Just to agree with Landbaron, Eisner admits himself in his Autobiography that he hated the TDL deal. So, I doubt that he's thrilled with TDS. I'm sure he'd rather get a percentage then nothing, but based on his own words, I doubt he's thrilled with it.

And thedsScoop, I'm hurt, I don't consider Eisner a visionary any more then you do, BUT, I am one of the few who remember some of the Paramount movies that were made when he was there. The man didn't just come into being in 1983.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Now you said just "one little thing" and, while I could define DCL or Broadway LK or DVC as one little thing, I'll let you answer your own question....

Well, it's my own fault. And I'll gladly take a trip in car #1 for a day for a stupid mistake. (It's kind of easy when you just return from WDW. And the Captain is right, I figure it'll last anoither week or so.) Anyway, the little caveat that was in my pea sized brain, but what I didn't type was: 'In the Parks'!! Yes!! The man knows how to make money (and sometimes satisfy guests, purely as a side effect) when it comes to resorts! (IMO the DCL is a floating resort.) And DVC is a little old for this context AND it's also a resort type thing. And his Broadway production is supposed to be wonderful! I agree. But my question was specific to DCA and park related experiences (read: attractions). And again I'd like to ask it. What recent decisions leads you to believe that any approach, other than the absolute minimum (Band-Aid to profits) will be done? I'd really like to see what you guys see. Do I need special glasses? (BTW, this is the type of conversation you're going to get if I cross to your car. You sure you still want me?)

Now, as for the twin abominations (Swan and Dolphin) I think you missed the point. In Chicago, roughly thirty years ago, Hyatt put up a hotel near the airport. It was stunning!!! All steel and glass, very retro today, but back then, quite a masterpiece. The lobby shot up 20 stories or so and in the middle a bank of 'futuristic' glass elevators (looking a little like Flash Gordon's rocketships) jetted people to the different floors. Everything was elegant and stylish. 25 years later many other hotels have sprung up in the surrounding area, each stylistic, each distinctive and each impressive in their own right. And it's absolutely amazing how similar they all feel. How they are all so very different and yet so 'identical' with each other at the same time. The Swan and Dolphin would be a perfect fit in this area. They have that same 'feel'. When I was sitting there having drinks in the elegant bar with Gcurling and The Captain, I could have been in ANYWHERE, USA. An airport hotel in Rosemont Illinois. A Manhattan hotel. Or even the American Club in Kohler Wisconsin!! HOWEVER, when I met with you I was filled with Disney!! Had we met at any of the other Disney resorts, I would have felt the same way. The Poly, Beach Club, Boardwalk and even Old Key West. They transport you away with theme and style. Where do the Swan and Dolphin transport you? Downtown Chicago??!! No thanks! That is exactly what I'm trying to get away from!!

Now I don't mean to quibble. I understand that they are unique structures and that they do indeed have a singular look about them. I am not dismissing your argument. But, and I certainly don't want to quote out of context, you make my very points for me, but they are hidden in you paragraphs. Let's pull them out and cast a little more light on them.

Now, while I agree with you on Swan/Dolphin being misplaced

If they are misplaced there is really nothing left to discuss. Put them with the other Hotels in Lake Buena Vista and I suddenly like them!!

Plus, even if you don't like modern and even if it messes with good sight lines....

How can you forgive that??!! You say that the walkway from MGM is haunting. It may be. But what about the walkway around Showcase Lagoon? What does that backdrop do for the Eiffel Tower, that so much thought was given when first constructed, honing the forced perspective concept to a fine art? It now looks like what it is. A cheap miniature on a slightly rising landscape which is dwarfed by a big, upside-down caricature of a fish!!

you walk into a Gotham/Gothic type scene, which again may not fit the "show" but is nevertheless visually stimulating.

Stop right there!! Nothing. Let me say that again a little louder - NOTHING should ever not fit with the SHOW!!! Period!! There is no excuse!!


Finally a thought about vision:

In the right context, I agree. But that goes back to my point. Is it better to have failed vision or just a bunch of boxes. DCA seems to be boxes.

Why do you give us only two choices? A box or a failed vision. Now that's a tough choice. And either way we lose!! Why not give us a third choice. You know, a little hope for a winner. Something like - Successful vision! Something almost everyone on this board, friends and enemies alike, have shown they have, time and time again. But Ei$ner has consistently shown it is something in which he is sadly lacking. If the only vision he has is a failed one, then I think it's time to give someone else a try. What'd ya think?

Captain, my Captain!!

If DCA were successful & making some money, many of your attitudes still wouldn't change, and that's what bothers me.

How can you say that??!! IF DCA were a success, I'd say, "WONDERFUL"!!! Now let's try it here in WDW!! You've finally 'got it'! So keep it coming." Unfortunately, he NEVER gives me the opportunity to say it!!

 

[YoHo]

Just a note, my previous reference should have been to AV, Not Landbaron.


At Any rate, DVC, I was going to say something about Swan and Dolphin, but you stole my thunder. Again I wonder if were not just spoiled living amongst the best Skyline in the United States, but Swan and Dolphin just Scream Chicago Architecture. For that matter, they scream Typical, not unique. (I liked the American Club Comment. By the way. If Eisner had built it would it have been a 50 foot Urinal Complete with Cake?)

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

S/D at DD hotel area? Great! Exactly! It would blow them all away, create a demand for the area, remove Sheraton from hallowed ground, and would likely "fit" the DD sight lines. So, there, take that! I agree!

So you and I agree!! The Swan and Dolphin are wonderful hotels that belong somewhere else!! But let's carry that a little further. If they don't belong where they do, then the guy that picked the location (or the design for this location) SHOULD BE SHOT!!! Still agreeing?