Disney's Dark Kingdom (Complete list on pg 24)

[Figment632]

Ok, A NOTHING can compete with Harry Potter. It's a mega force. Disney turned JK down because they didn't want to build it the way she wanted to see it built. Proving that they are not having a vision anymore. It's all about building up and off of what they already have. Half of the things they have they don't even use!

Wrong

Mysterious Island
FLE
MI coaster
E in TL/AL

All of this was supposed to open at once all this new would not have been better but would have competed.

 

[anthony2k7]

Wrong

Mysterious Island
FLE
MI coaster
E in TL/AL

All of this was supposed to open at once all this new would not have been better but would have competed.

i dont really see how this proves Queen2PrincessG wrong. Infact to me it proves Queen2PrincessG absolutely correct.

none of the above proves they have a vision really and most of it is just making better use of what they already have rather than true game changers.

 

[Figment632]

i dont really see how this proves Queen2PrincessG wrong. Infact to me it proves Queen2PrincessG absolutely correct.

none of the above proves they have a vision really and most of it is just making better use of what they already have rather than true game changers.

They don't need to compete with Potter that is the problem.

 

[umichigan10]

They don't need to compete with Potter that is the problem.

that depends if the potter craze at IOA is permanent or temporary, but its been almost a year since it opened and WWoHP is still mobbed.

 

[Figment632]

that depends if the potter craze at IOA is permanent or temporary, but its been almost a year since it opened and WWoHP is still mobbed.

I don't want to get into that again but peoplecome to WDW for vacation and then go to UNI. Not many people got on vacation to UNI and then got to WDW that is why Disney will never have to compete.

 

[umichigan10]

I don't want to get into that again but peoplecome to WDW for vacation and then go to UNI. Not many people got on vacation to UNI and then got to WDW that is why Disney will never have to compete.

fair point

 

[pilferk]

I agree based on the comment made by DizCaptain above. It just shouldn't be that way though. They made the sacrifice once and look how well it turned out. IMO, they need to realize that occasionally the long term future should be in the plans too and again, IMO, transportation at WDW is the #1 glaring problem and the monorail is part of the Disney image.

One thing we all need to remember:

Like it or not, in today's corporate world, "long term" is 5 years.

I don't disagree with any of the people who will sit here and say that viewpoint will stifle plans and bog down the creative process. But it is what it is.

You are not going to see Disney make an enormous capital investment, with minimal (in their eyes) potential for ROI withing the next 5 years. I would bet you dollars to donuts that, if you were to ask one of the Disney "C" category (or even VP level) execs about this...they'd sit there and site their Guest Satisfaction surveys and tell you their current transportation offerings are much more cost effective, even considering the guest satisfaction factors of other potential offerings.

And that's just the way it is.

 

[nytimez]

One thing we all need to remember:

Like it or not, in today's corporate world, "long term" is 5 years.

I don't disagree with any of the people who will sit here and say that viewpoint will stifle plans and bog down the creative process. But it is what it is.

You are not going to see Disney make an enormous capital investment, with minimal (in their eyes) potential for ROI withing the next 5 years. I would bet you dollars to donuts that, if you were to ask one of the Disney "C" category (or even VP level) execs about this...they'd sit there and site their Guest Satisfaction surveys and tell you their current transportation offerings are much more cost effective, even considering the guest satisfaction factors of other potential offerings.

And that's just the way it is.

I agree with all that. I don't want an extended monorail, personal pods or teleportation (OK, teleportation would be cool). I just want buses that work better than they do now.

It is NOT cost effective for three or four empty Epcot buses to come and go from a hotel in a row while people wait 30-45 minutes for one to the Magic Kingdom -- and I've seen this happen more than once (not always for Epcot/MK, but you get the idea).

 

[pilferk]

It is NOT cost effective for three or four empty Epcot buses to come and go from a hotel in a row while people wait 30-45 minutes for one to the Magic Kingdom -- and I've seen this happen more than once (not always for Epcot/MK, but you get the idea).

No, those instances aren't.

But you're looking at (potentially) aberrations within a complete system. As long as the aberrations are relatively few and far between, the cost effectiveness lost from them isn't outweighed by the cost effectiveness of the system as a whole, especially when taking into account sheer volume.

A good example is mass production. Every mass production line has an inherent error rate. If you're sitting there watching the "bad" bottles get kicked out during quality testing....you're going to be SHOCKED at the number of bottles being dropped off the line. The sheer volume seems astounding. But when you take into account that a line can see 500k to 1 million bottles per day make it past QC...suddenly you realize that the aberrations are miniscule compared to the cost benefit and sheer volume being kicked out.

I suspect (though, as is the case for all these discussions on the Diz...it's all theorycrafting) that's what the Disney execs would say to you in a moment of weakness. No system is perfect (remember "The Matrix"!). So it comes down to this: Is the system successful enough to meet it's goals (in this case: to transport hotel guests to the theme parks), efficient enough to not create too much customer (guest) DIS-satisfaction, while balancing overall cost to the company (and make no mistake...when balancing cost to efficiency...cost carries a bit more weight).

I'm not going to sit here and say, categorically, that the current transportation system does that. I don't know. What I do know is that Disney, when it comes to data, seems like they'd fit right in on the show "Hoarders". They seem to collect an AWFUL lot of it...which makes me think they use it (because otherwise...why bother). And, in their minds, this seems to be the best system they can come up with right now.

I have my own quibbles (like you do) with that system, for sure. And I've seen anecdotal aberrations, too (just like you mention above). It certainly doesn't meet all MY needs, at the resort.

But if we're going to talk about the business, we have to try to "think" like a business does...not like a guest. And from what I've seen...I think Disney's version of public transportation is probably about as efficient as they can make it, it is tolerable to most guests (as in, it doesn't kill their Guest Satisfaction ratings, overall), and it's as cost efficient as they can make it. In other words: Unless some cheaper, more efficient tech comes around that ALSO improves guest satisfaction ratings....I think this is probably what Disney's going to stick with for awhile. They might make improvements (I hope they do), given new efficiency models, more data, or new tech...but I doubt the overall system changes until we can say "Beam me up, Mickey" or they take a page from Logan's Run.

 

[anthony2k7]

No, those instances aren't.

But you're looking at (potentially) aberrations within a complete system. As long as the aberrations are relatively few and far between, the cost effectiveness lost from them isn't outweighed by the cost effectiveness of the system as a whole, especially when taking into account sheer volume.

but the problem is that the these arent that few and far between at specific locations and the problem after years doesnt seem to improve.

One specific example is AKL - they just dont seem to be able to get it right there at all after years of people consistently moaning about a fairly consistent problem there.

For a supposedly deluxe category resort with no other transportation options, thats pretty pathetic really.

 

[anthony2k7]

I don't want to get into that again but peoplecome to WDW for vacation and then go to UNI. Not many people got on vacation to UNI and then got to WDW that is why Disney will never have to compete.

On the face of it, you'd think that would be true,

except universal has 3 onsite hotels which whilst maybe arent disney sized, they also arent small - and I assume they arent all always empty!

 

[nytimez]

but the problem is that the these arent that few and far between at specific locations and the problem after years doesnt seem to improve.

One specific example is AKL - they just dont seem to be able to get it right there at all after years of people consistently moaning about a fairly consistent problem there.

For a supposedly deluxe category resort with no other transportation options, thats pretty pathetic really.

Yes. This. I've seen examples of this on every trip, at multiple resorts, and I visit twice a year most years and always stay on-property.

AKL is especially bad because when these lines building up at Jambo, they also build up at Kidani... where the bus stops first. So you might wait 30-40 minutes for a bus, and when it does finally arrive it's already full.

And, again, this isn't due to a shortage of buses or drivers, because you can literally watch three or four buses for the same park come and go within minutes of each other -- each one empty or almost empty.

 

[anthony2k7]

Yes. This. I've seen examples of this on every trip, at multiple resorts, and I visit twice a year most years and always stay on-property.

AKL is especially bad because when these lines building up at Jambo, they also build up at Kidani... where the bus stops first. So you might wait 30-40 minutes for a bus, and when it does finally arrive it's already full.

And, again, this isn't due to a shortage of buses or drivers, because you can literally watch three or four buses for the same park come and go within minutes of each other -- each one empty or almost empty.

yeah, but it was like that even before Kidani was open!

When we stayed there, there was one particular day when we waited around an hour (i think it was for a MK bus) and mean while I think it was 3 epcot buses and 2 DHS buses came and went - all nearly empty or completely.

The next day it was clear there had been complaints because there was a CM there attempting to control which buses were for where. I remember him being continually radioing I guess where ever the buses are controlled from and repeatedly saying the next bus would be for x park, or its 5 minutes away etc - but he was nearly always wrong! I dont know if its possible, but it was as if the bus drivers were somehow avoiding some routes (can they reject them??). Or someone else was overruling the guy for some reason.

 

[ASteelersMidget]

The Bus problem is definitely a problem. The last time though i had a Real problem was my 2004 Trip when i Stayed at the AKL. It was a horrible experience. I learned that I spent the most time in MK that it makes more sense to stay Either on the monorail or at the Wilderness Lodge where you can take the bus OR boat. The monorail and the Boat are great alternatives to the buses if you are going to spend the money for a Deluxe.

 

[pilferk]

but the problem is that the these arent that few and far between at specific locations and the problem after years doesnt seem to improve.

One specific example is AKL - they just dont seem to be able to get it right there at all after years of people consistently moaning about a fairly consistent problem there.

For a supposedly deluxe category resort with no other transportation options, thats pretty pathetic really.

But again, you're talking about anecdotal "measurement" within a complete system. They're worthless. It's like watching a guy flip a coin 10 times, seeing all heads, walking away, and assuming that the next 1000 times he's going to see heads more than tails.

So, the real question is: How often is the system successful vs how often is it not, in total. I don't know the answer to that question, but you can't form a conclusion (or even a supposition) based strictly on the above anecdotal evidence...no matter how many people report it. Some of that is because human perception tends to notice (and remember) the negative more than the positive outcomes. Some of it is because, again, you could just be unlucky, or seeing aberrations within the system.

In other words, without quantifiable data (which we know Disney has, and we don't)....you can't get there from here. Disney not only have guest satisfaction surveys, they've got ALL the actual transportation data (via tattlers and documented driver communications), and the cost data. We got nothing.

I get it. There are guest complaints. But to be honest...when we've used AKL's transport (we're DVC members and AKV is our home resort)...we've RARELY seen what you're reporting. So how is that anecdotal feedback any different than yours? Answer: It's not. And it's not really any more valuable. It's just luck of the draw.

I've no doubt the system breaks down at AKL. And perhaps it happens more often than at other resorts for a variety of reasons based on location, logistics, etc. But we don't KNOW it. And Disney continues to use this system. They have to have a reason, right? Because no business is going to spend money on a system that they don't think "works" in terms of efficiency, goal, and cost effectiveness if it doesn't do any of those things well.

I'm not going to say, for an instant, that as guests we shouldn't complain when something goes wrong. We should. But that wasn't the "bent" at least one piece of the discussion was taking. It was talking about how a monorail expansion (or change to the system) might be more cost effective. I'm strictly applying "business view", here (or trying to). With my "guest glasses" on...I feel much the same way you do about the overall system. But "feel" isn't quite the same as what was being talked about.

 

[pilferk]

I dont know if its possible, but it was as if the bus drivers were somehow avoiding some routes (can they reject them??). Or someone else was overruling the guy for some reason.

My understanding is Central Dispatch routes (via software) them and there are tattlers on the busses (ie: They always know where the bus is, where it's going..even down to how fast it's travelling).

Now, I know there have been issues in Central Dispatch (ESPECIALLY just after the new routing system went up) before that created holy heck. I remember reading there was one day, not TOO long ago, where basically the whole bus system (for every resort) kicked the can because the software went haywire. So it definitely happens.

Wonder if that's what was going on (or something similar) that day.

 

[umichigan10]

but the problem is that the these arent that few and far between at specific locations and the problem after years doesnt seem to improve.

One specific example is AKL - they just dont seem to be able to get it right there at all after years of people consistently moaning about a fairly consistent problem there.

For a supposedly deluxe category resort with no other transportation options, thats pretty pathetic really.

this doesn't help AKL pathetic bus transportation at all, but to give a supposedly
"deluxe" resort a perk they should give them a backdoor to AK.

 

[nytimez]

But again, you're talking about anecdotal "measurement" within a complete system. They're worthless. It's like watching a guy flip a coin 10 times, seeing all heads, walking away, and assuming that the next 1000 times he's going to see heads more than tails.

So, the real question is: How often is the system successful vs how often is it not, in total. I don't know the answer to that question, but you can't form a conclusion (or even a supposition) based strictly on the above anecdotal evidence...no matter how many people report it. Some of that is because human perception tends to notice (and remember) the negative more than the positive outcomes. Some of it is because, again, you could just be unlucky, or seeing aberrations within the system.

In other words, without quantifiable data (which we know Disney has, and we don't)....you can't get there from here. Disney not only have guest satisfaction surveys, they've got ALL the actual transportation data (via tattlers and documented driver communications), and the cost data. We got nothing.

I get it. There are guest complaints. But to be honest...when we've used AKL's transport (we're DVC members and AKV is our home resort)...we've RARELY seen what you're reporting. So how is that anecdotal feedback any different than yours? Answer: It's not. And it's not really any more valuable. It's just luck of the draw.

I've no doubt the system breaks down at AKL. And perhaps it happens more often than at other resorts for a variety of reasons based on location, logistics, etc. But we don't KNOW it. And Disney continues to use this system. They have to have a reason, right? Because no business is going to spend money on a system that they don't think "works" in terms of efficiency, goal, and cost effectiveness if it doesn't do any of those things well.

I'm not going to say, for an instant, that as guests we shouldn't complain when something goes wrong. We should. But that wasn't the "bent" at least one piece of the discussion was taking. It was talking about how a monorail expansion (or change to the system) might be more cost effective. I'm strictly applying "business view", here (or trying to). With my "guest glasses" on...I feel much the same way you do about the overall system. But "feel" isn't quite the same as what was being talked about.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss our argument as anecdotal evidence only to make yours on the strength of what you admit is no evidence.

If I understand it correctly, your argument comes down to, "Disney is using this bus system, therefore it must work."

Is that a fair summation? I'm not being sarcastic. But I disagree. I don't think Disney's reliance on the system on its own is evidence that it must work, only evidence that it must represent some cost vs convenience tradeoff made in an accounting department somewhere. For example, they may have determined (accurately, in my case) that a mediocre bus system will cause inconvenience, but will not stop people from coming back.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I don't think it's fair to dismiss our argument as anecdotal evidence only to make yours on the strength of what you admit is no evidence.

If I understand it correctly, your argument comes down to, "Disney is using this bus system, therefore it must work."

Is that a fair summation? I'm not being sarcastic. But I disagree. I don't think Disney's reliance on the system on its own is evidence that it must work, only evidence that it must represent some cost vs convenience tradeoff made in an accounting department somewhere. For example, they may have determined (accurately, in my case) that a mediocre bus system will cause inconvenience, but will not stop people from coming back.

Nice post.

The sad fact is that the bus system is nothing more than the cheapest route. Disney needs to become an innovator at some point in time less they allow themselves be viewed as just another company in all facets. The goodwill or 'magic' that was created by Walt's brilliance has all but been used up and the generic 'theme park' label is looking more and more probable, especially since the WWoHP kicked WDW's butt in every way.

Imagine if Igor wanted to actually create a legacy for himself like Walt did (and Eisner at least aspired to in his own demented way) instead of the standard MBA crappola of 'pleasing the street'?

The monorail is just the type of project that could create that legacy. Costly? Yes. Insurmountable? No. Unforgettable? Yes.

 

[Disco]

I like the monorail but its time is over. They are not very efficient (maybe the newer models are better) and have little flexibility.
The biggest problem is that the latest expansions to the park have not taken into account the needed logical layout for a rail type system at all. They might be able to expand the Mono to service to a hotel or resort here and there but there is no way they can make it work for servicing everything in the park. Something completely new would have to be envisioned and implemented to replace the bus system.