Disney's Dark Kingdom (Complete list on pg 24)

[Figmentforever24]

There is no way that Disney wouldn't have multiple plans for a 5th gate. Right after Animal Kingdom opened Eisner was asked whether or not a 5th gate was in the works. He said that there were no plans to built any soon but plans were ready for a 5th and ideas had been thrown around for a 6th. Since then Dark Kingdom, Night Kingdom and even rumors of the Orlando version of DisneySea have all been rumored. (Thank God Orlando didn't built the third) These are only the ones we know of. Somewhere on a planet far out of our universe lies a small vault at the center of a planet far away from the sun.....inside the vault is a ladder which leads down to a tunnel that carries through to a warp hole leading you to a small room where zombies guard a box. Inside the box is the key to the box containing the plans for a 5th gate....yet no one knows where that box is.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

There is no way that Disney wouldn't have multiple plans for a 5th gate. Right after Animal Kingdom opened Eisner was asked whether or not a 5th gate was in the works. He said that there were no plans to built any soon but plans were ready for a 5th and ideas had been thrown around for a 6th. Since then Dark Kingdom, Night Kingdom and even rumors of the Orlando version of DisneySea have all been rumored. (Thank God Orlando didn't built the third) These are only the ones we know of. Somewhere on a planet far out of our universe lies a small vault at the center of a planet far away from the sun.....inside the vault is a ladder which leads down to a tunnel that carries through to a warp hole leading you to a small room where zombies guard a box. Inside the box is the key to the box containing the plans for a 5th gate....yet no one knows where that box is.

Eisner also lost his mind, opened a couple of the worst, half finished parks in Disney history...and was thrown out by his own former allies...

Just saying

 

[lockedoutlogic]

you have animal kingdom which not many people seem to like.

You secretly answered the question of the 5th gate in your diatribe...and didnt even notice, huh?

 

[JoWiJo]

As far as I'm concerned, saying a Dark Kingdom is guaranteed because they have plans for it is like saying we will eventually get the long awaited monorail expansion -- because they have plans for it.

Sure, something in the future might happen in the transportation industry whereby Disney can build quality monorails for a relatively low cost. And yes, it's plausible that this other park will come into fruition. But I don't see either happening.

I'm inclined to agree that even if the concept goes forward, it could be quite different in form than the alleged plans currently have for it. Just compare Walt's plans for EPCOT to what it actually was when it opened as an example of how much they can change. Instead of a full park, it could an added land to the MK. Or it could be a section at Disney Springs. Or instead of a park, perhaps it could be the theme of a new resort with "malicious" amenities. But the park in question, as I have read it described (in this and other threads), although certainly creative, is redundant to the MK.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not crazy about that idea, but if I was CEO of Disney right now and had all the power, I'm not sure which way I'd go.
But, I strongly believe that if they were to announce a new park tomorrow, it will be 10 years before we walk through the gate.

10 years?!?

Woah there, cowboy...what's the rush?

 

[skier_pete]

First off there's no way Disney's building a 5th gate. No way. I won't say "never", but not for at least 15-20 years.

Second, even if they did, it wouldn't be THIS. Not to saying maybe this isn't in a vault somewhere, but they aren't spending $3 Billion to make a park that's exactly the same as a park they already had, only with villians. This is more of a "Fan Service" concept than just about anything out there. A "neat" idea that's actually a really stupid idea, cost/benefit wise. If this is such a great idea, why not just have a "Villians" hard ticket event during the times they were having the "Pirates and Princess" party - it would cost them practically nothing yet would bring in income.

 

[flashcal]

This is part of the issue - and part of my objection to the idea that a Villain park (or any other idea) is set in stone. First of all, there's no guarantee that a fifth gate will actually be built at all. Even if it does get built, if it's many years from now, the financial bigwigs who make that decision are under no obligation to use plans developed many years before - especially if they weren't the ones who ordered those plans to be developed in the first place.

For example, if Disney does decide to build a fifth gate, the CEO will be heavily invested in the project. Bob Iger is retiring in 2016. Even if Iger approved of the Villains concept, or even the idea of a fifth gate at all, there's no guarantee that the new CEO will like either of those ideas. In fact, it's far more likely that the new CEO will want to go forward with his or her own large projects.

When it comes to Disney - or ANY large corporation - there's just no such thing as a "permanently approved, but on hold" project like this. It just doesn't happen that way.

Ya know, you're RIGHT. In fact, you're always right. I should have known. You should send in your resume.

 

[Figmentforever24]

Eisner also lost his mind, opened a couple of the worst, half finished parks in Disney history...and was thrown out by his own former allies...

Just saying

I didnt say he came up with good ideas....I said he came up with ideas.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

First off there's no way Disney's building a 5th gate. No way. I won't say "never", but not for at least 15-20 years.

Second, even if they did, it wouldn't be THIS. Not to saying maybe this isn't in a vault somewhere, but they aren't spending $3 Billion to make a park that's exactly the same as a park they already had, only with villians. This is more of a "Fan Service" concept than just about anything out there. A "neat" idea that's actually a really stupid idea, cost/benefit wise. If this is such a great idea, why not just have a "Villians" hard ticket event during the times they were having the "Pirates and Princess" party - it would cost them practically nothing yet would bring in income.

1000%

People need to accept that wdw is pretty much what you get...at least about 90%

The other 10%...the margins...is where your hopes must lie.

It's about fundamental economics... The animal kingdom expansion did not get them what they wanted...they make gobs of money, but not because the fourth park drives it.

It's more of just Increase in costs and travel patterns. But the key stat - always - is length of stay. If they had the average stay increase by three days everytime they built a park...there'd be 10 parks...

But with ak...the average hit the "American wall" at 7 days...
The hurdle even Disney couldn't clear.

It's an end game...there is no financial motive for that kind of expense and overhead. No money in it.

if you want another angle...take basic microeconomics: price, supply, and demand

They already have plenty of supply...there resources aren't stretched by a nautical mile. No help there.

The price doesn't seem to be tied down by anything...as you, me, we continue to swallow the prices without catching our breath...

And demand rises every year...and that's the kicker. Where as ample supply and increasing price SHOULD drive the demand down...it's like shooting an elephant with a BB gun in this case...

As evidenced by "free dining watch 24/7"...and "Halloween party in August...please, please, please!!!"

The reasons for no new parks are fundamental, basic, and really beyond question.

 

[doconeill]

Exactly.

Getting people to stay longer is no longer a driving force in expansion, as in general they can't. In 21st Century Corporate America, you don't get as much vacation, and companies also don't want it accumulating either as it is a liability on the books.

The driving factor in a 5th gate will be capacity - when they can no longer reasonably accommodate the guest load across the four parks they have. And then it is an enormous expense for what would be little gain in revenue. It comes down to timing...too early and profits fall through the floor. Too late and you're losing revenue as guests decide not to come because they can't get into the parks any more...and then you won't need it as guest attendance will drop through the floor...

As reviled as Eisner is in some circles, he did have foresight to know what they were going to need, and got it built before it was too late. No matter what, each one was a gamble, and he probably finally lost the pot on the last one.

Mentality shifted away from the parks while the other corporate siblings struggled, and the parks were the tentpole. Whatever the parks made went to pay for ESPN and Studios losses. Now that those have turned around (despite some best efforts at the Studios at times), you'd think the parks would get more love, and so it started with the FLE - but then they went and made a deal for Shanghai and pushed forward a new tech initiative that involved computers and teh interwebs (something Disney has never seemed to get right to start with), and guess where all the money is going instead of planned expansions at the other parks?

If they can't pull off a Star Wars expansion or an already designed Cars Land, what hope is there for a whole fifth gate?

I have no doubt there are plans for a Villains park. I'm pretty sure there are many plans for a possible fifth park. I'm also willing to believe a Villains park is at the top of the list, and those in flashcal's Imagineering circles have been told as much. However what I cannot believe is that they are willing to commit the money to build it in the next 5 years. I believe the 20 year plan probably still includes it, but that's sort of "if we built to the max" document more than an actual roadmap.

And as I've said, given the backlash about the FLE they've already seen, they are very unlikely to build an entire WDW-scale park with a unary demographic focus. They will appeal to a more broad base, such that Villians would likely be a "land" within the park, perhaps the primary focus, but there will be other parts as well.

Oh, and about capacity being the driving force for an additional gate? Disneyland is feeling that now. They've suspended sales of the SoCal passes because of the parks being too crowded. So after Shanghai's issues are dealt with, where do you think the next focus will be?

 

[Yellowstonetim]

1000%

People need to accept that wdw is pretty much what you get...at least about 90%

The other 10%...the margins...is where your hopes must lie.

It's about fundamental economics... The animal kingdom expansion did not get them what they wanted...they make gobs of money, but not because the fourth park drives it.

It's more of just Increase in costs and travel patterns. But the key stat - always - is length of stay. If they had the average stay increase by three days everytime they built a park...there'd be 10 parks...

But with ak...the average hit the "American wall" at 7 days...
The hurdle even Disney couldn't clear.

It's an end game...there is no financial motive for that kind of expense and overhead. No money in it.

if you want another angle...take basic microeconomics: price, supply, and demand

They already have plenty of supply...there resources aren't stretched by a nautical mile. No help there.

The price doesn't seem to be tied down by anything...as you, me, we continue to swallow the prices without catching our breath...

And demand rises every year...and that's the kicker. Where as ample supply and increasing price SHOULD drive the demand down...it's like shooting an elephant with a BB gun in this case...

As evidenced by "free dining watch 24/7"...and "Halloween party in August...please, please, please!!!"

The reasons for no new parks are fundamental, basic, and really beyond question.

I would agree with this. A 5th park would be so terribly expensive and there are so many other things Disney can do to keep the people coming, and they are coming. Also, while many cannot do more than 7 days, we went for 10 days the last time and had plenty to fill our time! For a lot less money they can do a Star Wars land, Epcot improvements, a few ride changes, etc. and people will keep coming. In fact SW itself will probably provide a huge boost for years to come. It is America's national mythology now.

And as far as villains go, they are really cool for parties and such, but the hero's and heroines are where it is at with the younger set, and families are the main demographic. People throw a lot of love at certain characters because they only show once in a while or on special occasions, but Disney knows those same characters would not fill a queue day in, day out.

 

[profdsny]

10 years?!?

Woah there, cowboy...what's the rush?

Yeah, I'm a dreamer. But I only have OKW DVC until 2042, and I'll be 95 then, so I'd like to see it.

 

[profdsny]

Not only are their lot of options, there could easily be things coming along in the near future that will lead to a new park. I don't know if 10 or 12 years ago anyone could have predicted how big Harry Potter would be. On the other hand, something that was big at one time might not have legs. Probably not 1 kid in 10 could identify who Roger Rabbit is. And likely not 1 in 100 will know what Avatar is.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Oh, and about capacity being the driving force for an additional gate? Disneyland is feeling that now. They've suspended sales of the SoCal passes because of the parks being too crowded. So after Shanghai's issues are dealt with, where do you think the next focus will be?

Damn you...

Your making too much sense... As usual.

Though California expansion is gonna have to get real creative... They had to rob Peter to get Paul to build DCA and downtown already...

I think the ONE...possible saving grace in Orlando is that perhaps the Comcast presence...and subtle but significant expansion by sea world parks into the niche markets over the last 15 years...might force some added capital Into wdw.
They arent being "caught" in the market per se...but those other entities are at a minimum showing some of the staleness for sale at a high price in LBV...

"I had to reserve pirates 45 days ago? The 1975 disco-liscious view of 1775 fiction?
You're joking, right?"

It is conceivable that wdw could get more than just james Cameron's piggy bank...

Though how pathetic...nothing slated to open for several years now...construction just starting...

And even salivating for dopey's dump cars...
A very "minor" little
Zipper that was thrown in late in the planning...

Nothing else anywhere close to a reality now.

Underwhelming indeed

 

[tjkraz]

The ONLY concept that makes any sense as a 5th park for WDW is a boutique park along the lines of Sea World's Discovery Cove. Minimal staffing...minimal infrastructure...minimal crowds, each paying in the neighborhood of $400 per person for unique experiences.

Of course, when Disney can get away with charging $200+ for the Wild Africa Trek with virtually no staffing and no infrastructure (after a few minor capital improvements), why bother with an entire park. If a major Star Wars enhancement gets approved for DHS, don't be surprised if it includes a comparable high-priced boutique experience.

Again, there's just no rationale for a traditional 5th park. People would still buy the same multi-day MYW passes and have 5 destinations to visit instead of 4. Whatever revenues it added to WDW wouldn't even cover the operating expenses. At best, it would merely thin out the crowds.

Disney can get far more bang for its buck with expansions of the existing parks.

 

[derekleigh]

As much as LOVE the idea of a villains-themed park, WDW is in need of some expansion of the existing parks foremost.

MK just added the new Fantasyland, so that will probably be the biggest addition for that park for a while. This is their staple park and it already quite large so I don't see them adding anything significant any time soon. However, if the villains continue to become popular, adding a large Villain Land in MK would probably be more realistic than giving them a whole park.

AK has begun a sizeable expansion/addition (Avatar, Tree of Life, etc) and hopefully that will get it off the "Half Day Park" list. However I feel the Avatar additions would have been more appropriate at DHS, but I can see the slight connection.

Epcot could use a few new countries. I know, this is wishful thinking and I truly know there will be no new countries added anytime soon (or even ever). But a new country or two would freshen the WS up and give people something new to encounter!

Lastly, DHS. This IMO is in need of some expansion/additions. With the rights to Star Wars and Marvel, DHS should be the counter to Universal. DHS should focus on movies and thriller rides much like Universal Studios. TOT and AS rides are already big hits and some Marvel-themed rides paired up with some Star Wars areas would boast attendance numbers.

Again most of the latter two are wishfully thinking. But WDW has plenty of room to expand and I would love to see them utilize the existing parks first and then add a 5th park if needed.

 

[doconeill]

As mentioned in many threads (and possibly this one as well), there is VERY little that Disney can do with Marvel at WDW because of the Marvel Studios contract with Universal. Most of the mainline characters are already spoken for in that contract. Anything else at least currently doesn't have a draw. I don't see a "Guardians of the Galaxy" ride on theme alone being much of a draw.

 

[skier_pete]

And demand rises every year...and that's the kicker. Where as ample supply and increasing price SHOULD drive the demand down...it's like shooting an elephant with a BB gun in this case...

As evidenced by "free dining watch 24/7"...and "Halloween party in August...please, please, please!!!"

The reasons for no new parks are fundamental, basic, and really beyond question.

We don't always agree, but definitely in the same boat here. Disney's realizing that it's better to squeeze existing guests for more "exclusive" experiences. The success of MVMCP and MNSSHP is at fault. The fact that people are now willing to pay $70+ for a mere five hours in the park versus $350 across a 10-day vacation...

This is where "Harambe Nights" is coming from, this is where the "Epcot after hours" stuff is coming from. I wonder how long until "Star Wars Weekends" become hard ticket events. Making more money off the same "suckers". And it's the hardest core Disney fans that are driving it, too.

That's why the most realistic 5th gate concept was the "Night Kingdom" concept. A small park with limited attendance but high revenue. It probably would've been a success, too.

Oh, and about capacity being the driving force for an additional gate? Disneyland is feeling that now. They've suspended sales of the SoCal passes because of the parks being too crowded. So after Shanghai's issues are dealt with, where do you think the next focus will be?

Good point about DLR, though I think they are a long way from a third gate, but I agree that they would get a third gate before Florida gets a 5th one.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

For the 100 millionth time...


There will be no marvel rides in wdw...

And for the 100 thousandth time... Studios is intentionally small. It was built that way and they have resisted changing that for 25 years.
It's intentional...it's not like they "haven't been able to think of anything"....that's animal kingdoms problem...

mgm is a feeder park into other areas...notably EPCOT and Downtown.

I'm skeptical they will ever do anything large and sprawling there

 

[tjkraz]

For the 100 millionth time...


There will be no marvel rides in wdw...

Abs for the 100 thousandth time... Studios is intentionally small. It was built that way and they have resisted changing that for 25 years.
It's intentional...it's not like they "haven't been able to think of everything"....that's animal kingdoms problem...

mgm is a feeder park into other areas...notably EPCOT and Downtown.

I'm skeptical they will ever do anything large and sprawling there

"Large and sprawling" is open to interpretation but I suspect it's only a matter of time before Disney announces SOMETHING for DHS. If not for the Lucasfilm acquisition, they'd be working on Cars Land now. Albeit a watered-down version of Cars Land.

They won't develop acres of new land but there will probably be some expansion along with repurposing of under-used space like Sounds Dangerous...maybe even American Idol.

Was just reading an article about how one analyst has long been sour on Disney because all of its units EXCEPT ESPN are showing poor return on capital investments. That includes the theme parks.

http://www.deadline.com/2014/05/hav...-mediocre-return-on-disneys-big-acquisitions/

That's exactly what we (as park fans) are fighting against--numbers that show Disney really doesn't reap impressive rewards when it invests in the parks. It's a very measured cat-and-mouse game. Spend too much and the returns aren't big enough to offset the investment. Spend too little and risk losing the faithful.