Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[White_Sox_Fan]

1. Changing total points: They cannot change total points per year. That includes that they are not allowed to have some minor variance from year to year because of timing of weekends and leap year as suggested above. The official documents state that they determine total points based a hypothetical 365 day year having a usual number of weekends both annually and per season. That rules out having annual differences because of actual number of weekend days in any given season and year or for leap year. In other words, those new point totals have to be exactly the same as before and they cannot even vary by 1. Someone noted that possibly they could be 1 less and thus it would be proper to do it. No, they cannot be 1 less because that would mean that resort is now illegally oversold by that 1 point. However, trying to add points up based on the the old and new charts is not going to provide an answer to whether total points have changed. This is because of the 2BR lock-offs. In determining total points to be sold in relation to those they did not count them all as 2BR lock-offs or all as 1BR and studio (for which combined the points needed to reserve are higher than as a 2BR lock-off). They did, and were allowed to do, a reasonable estimate before starting sales as to likely demand for those lock-offs as 2BRs and likely demand as 1BRs and studios and then sell total points based on that estimate. The point charts cannot tell you what the difference is between estimated use as 2BRs versus 1BRs and studios that was originally used to determine total points and, without knowing that, you cannot do calculations from the existing charts to see if total points have changed. I would guess they were careful not to change total points.

I do not see how this is the case. Obviously the total points available per year CAN vary because of weekends, and absolutely vary when there is a leap year. The 2008/2009 point charts were exactly the same with the exception of the the addition of Feb 29th in 2008 so there definately were more points available for booking in 2008. I belive when you stated total points are based on a hypothetical 365 day year that this is total points available for sale, not total points available for booking each year. Also, as you stated, a reasonable estimate is used for the lock-off units which effects the calculation is a way for which I could not account. The calulation I did was to reaffirm that the reallocation was not entirely out of whack.

FWIW, I went back and found that I had an error in the spreadsheet that was calculating the total amount of unit days available based on the 2009 calendar and not 2010. When I fixed it the total change in points was 9,360 or 0.062%. I would consider this statistically insignificant. If I knew what percentage of lock-offs were calculated as two bedrooms the number would drop again.

 

[Dean]

This is precisely why I have been advising those who bought BLT to call their guides if they want to change the number of points they purchased. I think DVD will allow those members to make adjustments to the number of points purchased that are less than the 25 or 100 minimum, even if they have already closed. Perhaps the initial answer will be no, but eventually for those who push it, I predict they will allow it. I think they have to or at least will not want to fight about it.

My opinion and I am not a lawyer (although IIRC, drusba is)

Some have already been told they could.

 

[Dean]

If I knew what percentage of lock-offs were calculated as two bedrooms the number would drop again.

As I said, I'm pretty sure they calculate the totals assuming NO lockoff's. Then the only requirements to the lockoff portions is at most the 20% change and the maximum reallocation chart. For SSR that would be only 2 & 3 BR homes since there are no dedicated rooms.

 

[bookwormde]

Here I hat I have found out so far in figuring if total points have changed for OKW

If you figure the change based on 2009 year the points are relatively close at for all 2br + GV the difference is 576
For all lock offs split it is –4,944. If I use the number of lock offs as a variable if I set it at 24 (out of 230) the points balance at 7741236

If you figure the change based on 2010 year the points diverge significantly at for all 2br + GV the difference is -16020
For all lock offs split it is –20160. No number of lock offs makes this year balance. If I use the number of lock offs as a variable if I set it at 24 (out of 230) the difference is –16452 with the total the points of 7760526

If you figure the change based on 2011 year the points diverge significantly at for all 2br + GV the difference is -20925
For all lock offs split it is –33805. No number of lock offs makes this year balance. If I use the number of lock offs as a variable if I set it at 24 (out of 230) the difference is –22269 with the total the points of 7676136. One interesting note is that for this year the points for 504 2br units do balance at 7016688. This year is also equivalent to the 1994

I can not imagine that the regulations would allow DVC (or any other) timeshare to create some arbitrary year, although I could imagine being allowed to use a year which is reprehensive of the life of the contract (but with the extension that would open another issue. What we need to know is what was the base year for the initial point allocation.

I guess since I have not fallen upon any easy answer I will in addition to expressing my displeasure in how the announcement was handled, ask for the methodology that they used to comply with the POS and state regulations.


Drusba

Your post is very thoughtful and by my opinion accurate.

One point to add is that while not effecting contracts, the apparent pattern of guides miss stating the terms of the contract (intentionally of otherwise) represents a clear violation of the deceptive sales practices laws.


bookwormde

 

[BWV Dreamin]

This is precisely why I have been advising those who bought BLT to call their guides if they want to change the number of points they purchased. I think DVD will allow those members to make adjustments to the number of points purchased that are less than the 25 or 100 minimum, even if they have already closed. Perhaps the initial answer will be no, but eventually for those who push it, I predict they will allow it. I think they have to or at least will not want to fight about it.

My opinion and I am not a lawyer (although IIRC, drusba is)

I am one who is able to change my point amount purchased at BLT. I bought 2 days before the minimum 100pts. add-on went into effect. Disney didn't get the paperwork to me until a week later, thus I haven't turned it in yet. I spoke with my guide yesterday who said it would be "no problem" adjusting the points up. I increased from 30 to 40 pts., due to the re-allocation of points. If,purchasers have officially closed, it may be another matter in adjusting those points. Otherwise, even if paperwork has been sent in, I think there is still time if one hasn't closed.

 

[drusba]

As I said, I'm pretty sure they calculate the totals assuming NO lockoff's. Then the only requirements to the lockoff portions is at most the 20% change and the maximum reallocation chart. For SSR that would be only 2 & 3 BR homes since there are no dedicated rooms.

There is an Exhibit in the Public Offering Statement applicable to each particular resort entitled "Real Estate Interest and Point Formulation" that indicates otherwise and that what is sold is based on estimated use demand for the various room sizes.

 

[lugnut33]

It's not quite that bad but I will tell you that I have equated timeshare sales people with used car salesman on a number of occasions. Sometimes I offer a disclaimer that DVC is a cut above (they are), sometimes I don't. I have been taken to task for this comparison on more than one occasion, maybe not so much going forward. I have also posted many times about not believing what the salesperson says unless you see it in writing. It is interesting to me that this is such an issue when it is CLEARLY spelled out in the paperwork. This is not something you need even a basic understanding of legalese to grasp, only a 6th grade education. If one doesn't understand and read ahead of time, or after you get the papers (you have 10 days), OR if one sees it and assumes it's Disney so they won't really do that, shame on the buyer. To be honest, I think the guides are great overall and know of very few instances that appear to be purposeful lies, I do know of many instances where they just didn't know the product quite well enough or made recommendations that might have been good for someone one but not for that person. But you see I have knowledge and experience that can best be summed up by the saying "how do you know a timeshares salesperson is lying? You see their lips moving". Fortunately most aren't this bad and many are very good even outside DVC.

To a degree, yes you do have to forecast the future of both yourself and the timeshare. You had the info that said they could re-allocate the points, it was clearly spelled out. So you did have the info that they could do it and you should have considered that they might do so. The one group I do feel for in all of this are those that bought BLT and are having things change even before it opens, it is unfortunate. Question though, have you ever been to a timeshare presentation other than DVC?

Those affected by squabble with the idea that this is bigger. While they didn't change the weekend/weekday mix, they changed the season mix such that for OKW adventure season a studio went from 69 to 80, 1 BR 140 to 160, 2 BR from 189 to 218 and a GV from 309 to 356. There were minor increases in Choice season of about 3 points a week and some of those involved shifting from weekends to week days as well. There were decreases across ALL GV weeks for the year.

LOL, I never did the DVC presentation. Actually I've never been to a full blown timeshare presentation. I can only make my judgements based on what you write. And again, I'm not being hurt at all in this deal, matter of fact my point requirement is dropping by 1.

However, I can also totally understand why people are upset even if the POS spells out what DVC can do in regards to points re-allocations. There is no way to say they don't have a legitimate gripe, especially those that bought into BLT and AKL and now find themselves a couple points short in meeting their travel needs. That very vital key bit of information that higher-ups knew was being withheld.

And those that have been members for quite some time also can be upset, they don't have to be happy simply because the POS says it's OK. There is no provision in the POS saying members have to be happy about everything.

 

[DebbieB]

Now that is the million dollar question. . but could you imagine all of this (the thread) at the meeting? They would not do this at the meeting because they would have feared for their lives!!!

That is what really upsets me about this. Surely they knew at the time of the meeting that this was in the works. Instead, they waited until less than 1 week before 2010 reservations are starting. They waited until after the price increase, after the new minimum for BLT went into effect. I think many members bought in with trust because it was "Disney", the way this was handled totally blows any trust.

 

[bookwormde]

Just to clarify the discussion of what impact oral representations have on compliance with Floridas time share statutes

721.11 Advertising materials; oral statements

(4) No advertising or oral statement made by any seller or resale service provider shall:
(a) Misrepresent a fact or create a false or misleading impression regarding the timeshare plan or promotion thereof.
(i) Make any misleading or deceptive representation with respect to the contents of the public offering statement and the contract or the rights, privileges, benefits, or obligations of the purchaser under the contract or this chapter.


Here is the link that I pulled the info from if anyone is interested.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...tm&StatuteYear=2008&Title=->2008->Chapter 721

bookwormde

 

[Chuck S]

As I said, I'm pretty sure they calculate the totals assuming NO lockoff's. Then the only requirements to the lockoff portions is at most the 20% change and the maximum reallocation chart. For SSR that would be only 2 & 3 BR homes since there are no dedicated rooms.

I would agree, the lockoffs at all resorts are probably all calculated as 2 bedroom units. Any other scenario, basing it on studios and one bedrooms, in the off chance that EVERYONE in a given year booked them all as 2 bedrooms, they would have oversold the resort, and there is not way to use all the available points.

 

[MiaSRN62]

especially those that bought into BLT and AKL and now find themselves a couple points short in meeting their travel needs. That very vital key bit of information that higher-ups knew was being withheld.

And those that have been members for quite some time also can be upset, they don't have to be happy simply because the POS says it's OK. There is no provision in the POS saying members have to be happy about everything.

And I agree with the above. And true, nothing says we Members have to be happy all the time. But I can honestly say, I was a much happier Member 2-3 days ago when I wasn't 30 points short every year for our vacations (not that this will matter to many). Alot of people here are looking at this from a very clinical, business and analytical standpoint.

But DVC Membership also, in conjunction with the business end of it, holds alot of it's strength in the emotional , feel-good dept. Regardless of what some want to think about that. Alot of Members are passionate about their DVC. I work with 5 DVC'ers. I got to speak to 2 of them last night. Neither is happy.

I'm sure weekend DVC'ers are happier....but they are the ones who knew all along from the beginning how many points they would need for stays. So they budgeted all along, and then 2-3 days ago, got a point bonus. I agree...they should be happy. Who wouldn't ?

Rather the Sun-Thurs crowd has been hit head-on by this. I wish I was only affected by a couple points.
And I am a recent AKV purchaser. And I do feel the higher-ups knew about this change 3 months ago when we bought. They had to have. A change of this magnitude does not happen overnight. And this is what will cause ill-will among those of us that feel a bit duped. I can say, from our personal perspective, DVC lost both another add-on from us as well as positive word-of-mouth to other potential Members from us. DVC Members have always been cheerleaders for others buying DVC. I know my dh got 2 people at work to join in the past 2 years. Two people, who other wise, were looking at other options. So it's most likely those of us that have a bit of a gripe (and by no means all of us), who will in turn carry ill-will for some time. Because for us, when I have to drop a day from our vacation or downsize to a smaller villa and bring in air mattresses due to being 30 points short, I can honestly say I feel we've lost "value" in our Membership. And to repeat---I understood points could be moved around. But 30 points short is a ALOT of moving around and is affecting us greatly. I just never thought we'd be THIS short overnight. So to those who ask "what's wrong with you people"....well, you are simply not seeing from the perspective of some of us who are taking the most hit from this.
But the bottom line is.....it just doesn't matter how I "feel" in all this. And perhaps BLT owners will eventually be allowed to add-on the necessary deficit in points----but as AKV add-on'ers......I know we would have purchased at least 10-15 more points in light of this allocation & do feel a bit more than miffed by lack of disclosure 3 months ago on this.

Maria

 

[tjkraz]

Just to clarify the discussion of what impact oral representations have on compliance with Floridas time share statutes

721.11 Advertising materials; oral statements

(4) No advertising or oral statement made by any seller or resale service provider shall:
(a) Misrepresent a fact or create a false or misleading impression regarding the timeshare plan or promotion thereof.
(i) Make any misleading or deceptive representation with respect to the contents of the public offering statement and the contract or the rights, privileges, benefits, or obligations of the purchaser under the contract or this chapter.

My initial thought is good luck winning that argument. I believe there are many valid statements that could have been made which lead people to THINK that the points for a given night would never change.

For instance, if someone questioned whether the points are adjusted annually, "no" would be an accurate answer since there have never been annual adjustments.

In fact, if someone questioned whether "the points ever change", a response of "no" would also seem to be defensible since the total number of points in a resort will never change.

Now if someone specifically asked something like "will a weekday studio at Old Key West always be 8 points per night for the first week of December from now until 2042", a positive response would now be proven to be inaccurate. That's assuming both parties have the same recollection of a verbal conversation which occurred months or years prior.

And in the end the only remedy would seem to be DVC buying back the contract. They aren't going to make exceptions to the new charts for individual buyers.

 

[ashbradnmom]

Just to clarify the discussion of what impact oral representations have on compliance with Floridas time share statutes

721.11 Advertising materials; oral statements

(4) No advertising or oral statement made by any seller or resale service provider shall:
(a) Misrepresent a fact or create a false or misleading impression regarding the timeshare plan or promotion thereof.
(i) Make any misleading or deceptive representation with respect to the contents of the public offering statement and the contract or the rights, privileges, benefits, or obligations of the purchaser under the contract or this chapter.


Here is the link that I pulled the info from if anyone is interested.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...tm&StatuteYear=2008&Title=->2008->Chapter 721

bookwormde

While I really don't know how the changes will affect me, because i vacation at different times of the year. One time it may help me another it may hurt.
But i have no doubt that the above is stated, it will still be your word against theirs unless you had a tape recorder in your pocket.

I definetly do not agree with the notice given and I feel real sorry for the people who just bought AKV or BLT.

 

[tjkraz]

Alot of people here are looking at this from a very clinical, business and analytical standpoint.

But DVC Membership also, in conjunction with the business end of it, holds alot of it's strength in the emotional , feel-good dept. Regardless of what some want to think about that. Alot of Members are passionate about their DVC. I work with 5 DVC'ers. I got to speak to 2 of them last night. Neither is happy

But when having to choose between decisions that determine the overall health of the program vs. making people feel good, DVC must side with the former.

Closing Space Mountain for 9 months isn't going to thrill many Walt Disney World guests. But the maintenance work is necessary so they have to bite that bullet. Removing the animals from AKV's Sunset Savanna is another unpopular move, but Kidani construction demands it happen.

I don't envision anyone sitting high in the Disney executive offices rubbing their hands together while muttering "now we have them where we want them!" Like it or not, the current system slowly slid out of balance with how the last 15 years worth of DVC buyers have chosen to use their points. An adjustment was the only way of fixing that imbalance.

 

[tjkraz]

More relevant info from the Florida statutes:

(6) Prior to offering the multisite timeshare plan, the developer shall create the reservation system and shall establish rules and regulations for its operation. In establishing these rules and regulations, the developer shall take into account the location and anticipated relative use demand of each component site that he or she intends to offer as a part of the plan and shall use his or her best efforts, in good faith and based upon all reasonably available evidence under the circumstances, to further the best interests of the purchasers of the plan as a whole with respect to their opportunity to use and enjoy the accommodations and facilities of the plan. The rules and regulations shall also provide for periodic adjustment or amendment of the reservation system by the managing entity from time to time in order to respond to actual purchaser use patterns and changes in purchaser use demand for the accommodations and facilities existing at that time within the plan. The person authorized to make additions and substitutions during the term of the multisite timeshare plan shall also comply with the requirements of this subsection in ascertaining the desirability of the proposed addition, substitution, adjustment, or amendment and the impact of same upon the demand for and availability of existing plan accommodations and facilities.

Link: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes....HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0721->Section 56#0721.56

DVC is REQUIRED by law to adjust periodically based upon changes in demand patterns.

 

[bookwormde]

Since this is a regulatory complaint area it has no direct bearing on the contracts, but the basis for these types of complaints is a pattern of behavior, which can be, demonstrated when a significant number of “customers” were given the same misleading information.

I doubt that anyone will pursue it but just pointing out that from the anecdotal information here that there is an appearance that there may have been a significant problem, and that the clause in the contract about oral representation has no bearing in the regulatory area.

Now the failure to disclose material information is a much more serious issue.

Yes timeshare are supposed to make adjustments, but those changes and the others we have seen are meant to be done in the best interests of the majority of owners.

bookwormd

 

[jamstew]

If you look at the documents you signed, there is one called the Product Understanding Acknowledgment. This is an important document because it is the one you actually sign and thus you may not really be able to say you did not read or understand it. Paragraph 9 reveals Disney's right to adjust points. However, it is not as absolute as the the Multi-Site document. It says: "The number of vacation points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand." Note the word "seasonal." It does not say the change can be based on changes in demand for days of the week and seasonal would indicate it is referring to changes because of demand in the different seasons Disney has established and the current change does not appear to be that kind of change. The sentence above refers to a "particular vacation home" and then a subsection says, "If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights." That is vague because it does not actually say you can raise points for a 1BR while lowering for a studio.

Thank you. That's the language I was thinking about. Disney could have easily added a reference a to a more detailed explanation in the POS. The language you've quoted above, standing alone without benefit of the more specific terms of the POS, doesn't sound particularly ambiguous to me. If no other definitions are provided, I would think a consumer could reasonably infer commonly understood definitions for "season" (Disney or calendar) and "particular vacation home". When you combine this language with the fact that many of the guides have (apparently) explained the possible changes in the same way, I think that makes it fairly misleading. Does the Product Understanding Acknowledgement require the purchaser to acknowledge that he has read and understands the POS?

 

[baj0505]

But when having to choose between decisions that determine the overall health of the program vs. making people feel good, DVC must side with the former.

Closing Space Mountain for 9 months isn't going to thrill many Walt Disney World guests. But the maintenance work is necessary so they have to bite that bullet. Removing the animals from AKV's Sunset Savanna is another unpopular move, but Kidani construction demands it happen.

I don't envision anyone sitting high in the Disney executive offices rubbing their hands together while muttering "now we have them where we want them!" Like it or not, the current system slowly slid out of balance with how the last 15 years worth of DVC buyers have chosen to use their points. An adjustment was the only way of fixing that imbalance.

Well, call me naive in the Disney business world, but I would hope a company that tauts customer satisfaction, has a slogan of the 'Happiest Place on Earth", etc., etc. would have someone sitting high in that Disney executive office rubbing their hands together muttering "shouldn't we give the members a little more advance notice regarding these changes?", This decision didn't happen overnight and someone had the time to write up a justification to the point changes and post it on the DVC membership site:

To help address a growing Member interest in weekend stays and to better manage inventory of available rooms at Disney Vacation Club Resorts, Disney Vacation Club has adjusted 2010 Vacation Points charts, primarily reducing Vacation Point requirements for most Friday and Saturday nights.

 

[drusba]

More relevant info from the Florida statutes:



Link: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes....HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0721->Section 56#0721.56

DVC is REQUIRED by law to adjust periodically based upon changes in demand patterns.

But are you not assuming there has been a "change" in demand patterns? Disney has been saying off and on since it began DVC that demand for weekdays is significantly higher than weekends. It is the demand pattern that has always existed because weekends were always higher than weekdays and thus built into the system as originally conceived. Thus, it would appear they are trying to change the long-existing pattern rather than basing an adjustment upon changes in demand patterns that have actually occurred.

 

[mickeymom629]

will this change the way you plan your vacation days? In other words, if you used to only stay Sun-Thurs because of the really high points, are you considering weekend stays now?

I can only see where this might affect those DVC'ers who only stay Sun-Thurs - the others already book the weekends, so I can't imagine how this affects those.