Disney Riviera Resort

[lockedoutlogic]

Didn't say that it equated with quality -- ever. Popularity factors into willingness to pay a premium for something. Just does. Not dispositive -- not on its own. But it does.

The point was made that the magic kingdom view was "the best" and "one of a kind"...

I was pointing out that it wasn't one of a kind and other places have similar offerings.

But you said volume proves "best". And it doesn't.

I mean...that's what happened. And I hate to nitpick but its kinda what happens when a point I pose is diagreed with and is shouted down In bold and patronize.

Have you been to another Disney park? Preferably overseas? That goes to the counterpoint.

 

[Roxyfire]

e-fit... lockedout charming as always.

Your statement below argued against people being willing to pay for a view as a legitimate part of valuing goods and services. These are your words. Then you tried to cast that as a matter of opinion.



In fact, intangibles like willingness to pay are precisely what factors into pricing hotel rooms and real estate the world over -- always has.

Now below you finally acknowledge the simple thing I was saying all along. Each individual decides whether the view is worth paying for, FOR THEM -- subjective. Whew.



The missing piece is that you don't seem to acknowledge the logical fact that: IF the hotel rooms in WDW have decent occupancy, and IF the DVC's sell out and stay booked, this is PROOF that the views ARE worth paying for and DO have the value Disney has currently assigned. TA DA!

Not value TO YOU -- but they do have the value that Disney has currently assigned. There isn't an argument to be had there unless occupancy is way down, DVC isn't selling at the premiums associated with #pts for views, etc.

Not only that, when it comes to a lot of resorts, the lowest or standard views are a really limited category at Mods and Deluxes. At a value I don't think it's that big of a deal. But at a resort like POR, it's pretty sprawling but there's way more "garden view" rooms than standard, just because of the layout. There's way more lake view at bay lake than standard. Same in the hotel (north) wing of the lodge. Next year they'll probably bring back the woods view, a nice cool extra $25 or $50 a night that doesn't really matter. They could probably charge even more for those high floor rooms that you can see the MK fireworks. People who want Contemporary or Polynesian Theme Park, Club Level, everything are looking for some kind of next level experience that many aren't worried about. Maybe they regret it after, but I bet a lot of them are ok with it as long as it didn't bankrupt them. It's a different wavelength and headspace. I don't understand it, but I'm not gonna crap on people who want to do it.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

The point was made that the magic kingdom view was "the best" and "one of a kind"...

I was pointing out that it wasn't one of a kind and other places have similar offerings.

But you said volume proves "best". And it doesn't.

I mean...that's what happened. And I hate to nitpick but its kinda what happens when a point I pose is diagreed with and is shouted down In bold and patronize.

Have you been to another Disney park? Preferably overseas? That goes to the counterpoint.

Goodness... I don't think you're actually that sensitive to bold and italics given how you "talk" to people on here... you're no wallflower... -- my bold/italics/caps are just aiming to highlight what I think are my key points. Pretty basic.

To your points above:

• Legit point re: MK being located in a wealth-concentrated area, etc. as factoring into attendance
• I'd argue that its proximity to the other parks (as opposed to having essentially "only" a MK) certainly factors in as well
• I think there is something iconic about the MK/monorail combined view that you don't get elsewhere that may be worth an additional premium to a view as compared to other parks, but that too is subjective
• I've been to DL and booked the Grand Californian with view into the park -- very nice, but it wasn't a MK/monorail view. Never booked the DL view you're talking about -- sounds awesome.
• Never been to overseas Disney parks, but you can bet we'll book the views there when we do -- waiting for DS12 to be able to run a Disney 1/2 marathon and we're aiming to do that in Paris.

I'd still love your response to this point (I've removed the bold in case it's too jarring... :

The missing piece is that you don't seem to acknowledge the logical fact that: IF the hotel rooms in WDW have decent occupancy, and IF the DVC's sell out and stay booked, this is PROOF that the views ARE worth paying for and DO have the value Disney has currently assigned.

... There isn't an argument to be had there unless occupancy is way down, DVC isn't selling at the premiums associated with #pts for views, etc.

 

[jade1]

And yet...there is a one second difference in travel time from the view side of the hall and the non-view to that castle, ocean, etc.

Again...it's subjective. No real way to "win". I actually used to like views...but after years on DIS I changed to realize that many consumers act like children and feed the pricing policies. This type of upcharge would seem to be in that bucket. That isn't a good reflection of value to me...but I can't begrudge anyone else if they want that. As always...I caution about the slippery slope.

So you "choose" the option that saves you points. Nothing wrong with that. A great option to have.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So you "choose" the option that saves you points. Nothing wrong with that. A great option to have.

I can choose either...which is the laisse faire argument I hear...what a purely capitalist world!!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Goodness... I don't think you're actually that sensitive to bold and italics given how you "talk" to people on here... you're no wallflower... -- my bold/italics/caps are just aiming to highlight what I think are my key points. Pretty basic.

To your points above:

• Legit point re: MK being located in a wealth-concentrated area, etc. as factoring into attendance
• I'd argue that its proximity to the other parks (as opposed to having essentially "only" a MK) certainly factors in as well
• I think there is something iconic about the MK/monorail combined view that you don't get elsewhere that may be worth an additional premium to a view as compared to other parks, but that too is subjective
• I've been to DL and booked the Grand Californian with view into the park -- very nice, but it wasn't a MK/monorail view. Never booked the DL view you're talking about -- sounds awesome.
• Never been to overseas Disney parks, but you can bet we'll book the views there when we do -- waiting for DS12 to be able to run a Disney 1/2 marathon and we're aiming to do that in Paris.

I'd still love your response to this point (I've removed the bold in case it's too jarring... :

Ok...the bold is kinda low rent...which you know. To think that my feelings can be hurt make me feel like a real boy again!!!

My point about overseas was that the "castle" view is better replicated overseas...as in it can't be at Disneyland...so the wdw thing is "less unique" there. To each their own.

And the grand Californian looks into California adventure much moreso than Disneyland...because it wasn't built with outside views in mind in 1955.

The rest I'm good with...

As far as your tongue twister. I agree that they sell for the PRICE Assigned but merely that value is more subjective. That's all.

Would you be shocked if you saw data that showed that many of the "views" are a hard upsell? And are often discounted...

Hypothetically...if that were true...would that not indicate that value is below price point?

Just curious...as there has been an overall softening in demand for deluxes for about 10 years that could be partially due to those costs...no way to know for sure.

And when a dvc has "theme park" or "boardwalk" or "preferred" views...what get booked first typically?

The theme park (in some cases definitely) or the standards (in many more)?

Why is that? My guess is same room/less points/we don't look out the window anyway.

The rack, the pricing, dvc...it's a pretty elaborate picture.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Not only that, when it comes to a lot of resorts, the lowest or standard views are a really limited category at Mods and Deluxes. At a value I don't think it's that big of a deal. But at a resort like POR, it's pretty sprawling but there's way more "garden view" rooms than standard, just because of the layout. There's way more lake view at bay lake than standard. Same in the hotel (north) wing of the lodge. Next year they'll probably bring back the woods view, a nice cool extra $25 or $50 a night that doesn't really matter. They could probably charge even more for those high floor rooms that you can see the MK fireworks. People who want Contemporary or Polynesian Theme Park, Club Level, everything are looking for some kind of next level experience that many aren't worried about. Maybe they regret it after, but I bet a lot of them are ok with it as long as it didn't bankrupt them. It's a different wavelength and headspace. I don't understand it, but I'm not gonna crap on people who want to do it.

A view -- when there is a cool one -- has always been something that really enhanced my vacations. When I was younger, I saved longer for trips precisely so I could pay for that view. Now, when we bought BLT points we specifically bought enough to spend X days with a MK view. We stayed once in an interior room, and FOR US, it really just wasn't the same. Especially all those years when the kids were so young and in bed by 8pm, we placed a lot of value on being able to watch Wishes from our balcony. And those same years where we took longer midday breaks and the kids napped, we could sit and watch the monorails go by the window.

I totally get that for others this may seem like a waste. To us it isn't. All of that is subjective.

What is logical and not subjective is that Disney has priced those views correctly IF the rooms have solid occupancy. That part is just factual.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

A view -- when there is a cool one -- has always been something that really enhanced my vacations. When I was younger, I saved longer for trips precisely so I could pay for that view. Now, when we bought BLT points we specifically bought enough to spend X days with a MK view. We stayed once in an interior room, and FOR US, it really just wasn't the same. Especially all those years when the kids were so young and in bed by 8pm, we placed a lot of value o being able to watch Wishes from our balcony. And those same years where we took longer midday breaks and the kids napped, we could sit and watch the monorails go by the window.

I totally get that for others this may seem like a waste. To us it isn't. All of that is subjective.

What is logical and not subjective is the Disney has priced those views correctly is the rooms have solid occupancy. That part is just factual.

Ok...so that view has a higher value to you because of emotion.

Again...we just got back to where we were always going: different opinions.

Salute!

You know...if you hadn't saved for the "view" and didn't buy for "mk view"...you could've spent/spend more days in the compound doing other things...

So I guess "value" and "magic" are subjective afterall?

Well played...nonetheless.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Ok...the bold is kinda low rent...which you know. To think that my feelings can be hurt make me feel like a real boy again!!!

Disagree . And to the last sentence,

As far as your tongue twister. I agree that they sell for the PRICE Assigned but merely that value is more subjective. That's all.

Would you be shocked if you saw data that showed that many of the "views" are a hard upsell? And are often discounted...

Hypothetically...if that were true...would that not indicate that value is below price point?

Then, yes, perhaps -- that would suggest to me that they might be "priced" a little too high. All depends on precisely what that profit equation looks like and what the blended price is. But this would not make these DVC resorts any different than any hotel in the world.

When I worked in real estate development / timeshare many moons ago, we priced according to season, floor, view, etc. We routinely had to discount the top fares in off-season. Pretty typical.

And when a dvc has "theme park" or "boardwalk" or "preferred" views...what get booked first typically?

The theme park (in some cases definitely) or the standards (in many more)?

Why is that? My guess is same room/less points/we don't look out the window anyway.

The rack, the pricing, dvc...it's a pretty elaborate picture.

I'd say that most of the time, lower-priced rooms sell out first, but not always. I'd suspect that mostly has to do with most people not feeling that the premium is worth it. But all they need is X number of people every day to feel that it is worth it before check-in day. I'd love to have the details on all of that.

The rack, the pricing, dvc...it's a pretty elaborate picture.

Agreed!! I always say this... I would die to have mountains and mountains of data to throw into various models... would be SO interesting...

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Ok...so that view has a higher value to you because of emotion.

Again...we just got back to where we were always going: different opinions.

Salute!

You know...if you hadn't saved for the "view" and didn't buy for "mk view"...you could've spent/spend more days in the compound doing other things...

So I guess "value" and "magic" are subjective afterall?

Well played...nonetheless.

Oy vey. YES they are subjective. Don't fall over, but WE AGREE!!! Apparently always have on that point!!

My only other point was that when you throw all that subjectivity into a supply/demand/value blender, Disney HAS priced these right IF occupancy is solid, etc. That is separate from the subjective stuff.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'd say that most of the time, lower-priced rooms sell out first, but not always. I'd suspect that mostly has to do with most people not feeling that the premium is worth it. But all the needs is X number of people every day to feel that it is worth it before check-in day. I'd love to have the details on all of that.

Ok...so if the standards are "high demand"...which we all know (Heck, that stunt over at Saratoga proves it)...
...then does the fact they book immediately in several places shows that views don't have the inherent value for the dvc block that it may for a smaller percentage? It does. Rack rooms actually fall the same way. When it costs so much...the funds for "magic" are limited and therefore a window often becomes a window.

Agreed!! I always say this... I would die to have mountains and mountains of data to throw into various models... would be SO interesting...

Been there...seen that...and I even got to pick my own clothes while I did

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Been there...seen that...and I even got to pick my own clothes while I did

What?!?!?!?! Not fair.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Oy vey. YES they are subjective. Don't fall over, but WE AGREE!!! Apparently always have on that point!!

My only other point was that when you throw all that subjectivity into a supply/demand/value blender, Disney HAS priced these right IF occupancy is solid, etc. That is separate from the subjective stuff.

What my basic point was...and we have shot off the grid and I apologize...it's that a hotel is a rented commodity that provides fixed goods...that has value.

The view outside the window...is not a tangible value. That's why I say that it's more subjective choice than trying to tie it to a ledger sheet.

We actually agree on most of this. I just differ on that price proves value. Irrational perception or entitlement (but not only reasons ) are more the likely culprits for the price paid than actual academic value. Unless the gondola takes you directly from your balcony and drops you in the Epcot lagoon during the fireworks (wouldn't advise that)...then that's something real.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

What?!?!?!?! Not fair.

Some of us have a history here...and that does provide an insight that cuts through the "smoke"...

...but I was young and carefree then

 

[Roxyfire]

A view -- when there is a cool one -- has always been something that really enhanced my vacations. When I was younger, I saved longer for trips precisely so I could pay for that view. Now, when we bought BLT points we specifically bought enough to spend X days with a MK view. We stayed once in an interior room, and FOR US, it really just wasn't the same. Especially all those years when the kids were so young and in bed by 8pm, we placed a lot of value on being able to watch Wishes from our balcony. And those same years where we took longer midday breaks and the kids napped, we could sit and watch the monorails go by the window.

I totally get that for others this may seem like a waste. To us it isn't. All of that is subjective.

What is logical and not subjective is that Disney has priced those views correctly IF the rooms have solid occupancy. That part is just factual.

Yeah I'm no logic bot, and that's why those rooms are there and priced, people want them because it makes them feel good. I'll throw money at other stuff that others will not because that enhances my experience, making me feel good. It's an X factor, the intangible. The "value" is in the eye of the beholder, and subjective based on the situation. I'm not saying the MK view is overrated and pointless. I actually really enjoyed having that fireworks view for $250 a night. At $500 a night it's a no go. Now that I have DVC, if my mother was joining me, you better believe I'd book the MK view at Bay Lake. It would mean a lot more for her since she wouldn't want to be in the crowded parks. That's the calculus.

The thing that kills me are all the criticisms of what other people do and value. Some people are probably drawn to those things, like club level or mk view due to the hype, and get some buyers remorse because they didn't use it or it wasn't as great for them as it was for others. I'm not big on real fancy dinners and signature restaurants and wine pairings and all that. But others are super into it, good for them.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Unless the gondola takes you directly from your balcony and drops you in the Epcot lagoon during the fireworks (wouldn't advise that)...then that's something real.

Is this an option?? Price??

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Some of us have a history here...and that does provide an insight that cuts through the "smoke"...

...but I was young and carefree then

I get what you're saying. I've never been accused of seeing the world through rose-colored glasses... or not seeing through the smoke, though... I'm pretty clinical/logical (biochem/finance background). It's that the "intangibles" -- while certainly that -- are assigned value all the time by people and companies. That's not a warm fuzzy thing -- it's just true. People's fuzzy feelings distill down to willingness to pay (or not) for something. And companies market to that and capitalize on that.

Bringing things back more tangibly to DRR, I'm really interested in seeing how they price this sucker. Do they try to act like they have a BLT or a VWL or what?? What premium do they put on views of Epcot/DHS/whatever else?? Does this end up being a truly stand-alone, self-contained deluxe DVC with its own higher-end amenities, etc -- a "different DVC animal"? Feels like the latter would HAVE TO be true to get higher $$$... All interesting...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Y

The thing that kills me are all the criticisms of what other people do and value. Some people are probably drawn to those things, like club level or mk view due to the hype, and get some buyers remorse because they didn't use it or it wasn't as great for them as it was for others. I'm not big on real fancy dinners and signature restaurants and wine pairings and all that. But others are super into it, good for them.

You're aiming for the bullseye on me with this one...

Do you remember when they started calling it "club level"? And do you know why?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Bringing things back more tangibly to DRR, I'm really interested in seeing how they price this sucker. Do they try to act like they have a BLT or a VWL or what?? What premium do they put on views of Epcot/DHS/whatever else?? Does this end up being a truly stand-alone, self-contained deluxe DVC with its own higher-end amenities, etc -- a "different DVC animal"? Feels like the latter would HAVE TO be true to get higher $$$... All interesting...

Let me see if I can answer your questions:

1. Yes
2. 5-10 points a night - the usual
3. No
4. Depends on the consumer...but wdw patrons are downright awful consumers so they can likely do what they want.

 

[Roxyfire]

You're aiming for the bullseye on me with this one...

Do you remember when they started calling it "club level"? And do you know why?

I'm not intentionally aiming the bullseye at anyone. I'm speaking generally in the terms of clear visible categories and upgrades someone can add on or book. One that gets a lot of play on here from various folks in the deluxe resort threads. That one seems to me like one of those very spendy upgrades that has run the gamut from exclusive concierge to now an all day snack buffet with some beer and wine. I don't begrudge anyone who wants to do that, it's just way out of the realm of my pocketbook.

As to the history, I haven't been around that long. Before last year, the last time I was in WDW was like 1995 and I was not the one paying the bill so I have no idea. I only got out from under the '08 crash a couple years ago. Even if I wanted to vacation when the getting was good, I had $0 to put there. I always wanted to take my kid, even from when he was very little, but it never worked out due to the broke grad student thing. The history of price increases and category changes are interesting but it doesn't really help anything as it's all in the past now.