Disney reaching plateau in its hotels' occupancy

[jade1]

Not sure what to think about the hotels occupancy-seems weird they would be at 89% with new resorts in the area (Four Seasons, Bonnet Creeks, UNI's Value etc).

But loving this read-great input from everyone.

So interested in the labor force conversation.

I know 3 kids very well that left MN for the sunshine state to work at WDW last fall.

2 had no college experience (or really any experience) and one had a 2 year certificate from Chicago.

Anyway-up here college is expensive, but most people do go anyway.

These 3 are not college material, and may or may not set the world on fire. But all had worked years in the labor force from AMC, Best Buy, to Hollister to Subway, gas stations and car washes. All were around $7.25 to $8.50 at best. Great kids, fun, friendly and most of all hard working and dependable etc.

One landed a job in WDW stores immediately, one landed a "WDW" job immediately-but it turned out to be a union that works for WDW. Started as overnight hours for 3 months, then it changed to different day jobs throughout the week. The 3rd just got a "WDW" job as well in a union working overnight in the parks.

WDW job $9.75/hr
WDW Union job $16.75 to $19 per hour.
WDW union job $15 to $20 per hour.

Over the holidays they were time and a half and extra shifts all over the place.

One is currently working days at $16.25 an hour-that is so easy I don't even want to put it in writing for fear of jinxing it.

They all love it, and the weather is amazing (for now) but the 2 union jobs pay so much more, that even the path to WDW "direct" (which was offered) is a drop to $12ish an hour.

How is this, or why is this being done? I suspect the union jobs are much more likely to be a layoff than WDW direct-esp after 90 days?

Either way it is an amazing opp for all of these folks compared to whats available around here-and its a fairly good job market up here.

One last thing-these 3 know more about WDW and how to improve the guest experience than 99% of the workers I encounter there (and most are pretty good actually).

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think you're going into topics that will inspire passionate argument that is not conducive to Disney related talk. I think all the readers know all of the opinions here. Let's not let this get out of hand.

I agree...and that's the right call...

However...this thread is already out of hand with quips and insults...that was about labor, not politics.

It's just seems that a bunch of print... Frankly...garbage was being used to describe labor in the abstract...
Then the kids started throwing sand at each other.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Now...you can't give me 3
Cable TV taglines/falsehoods and expect me to take you seriously, can you?

I honestly expected better based on past exchanges.

The greatest president of the 20th century is not even debatable if you look at the record and longterm consequences of policies put into place.

And I love it when "freedom and capitalism" is quoted as the stength of America when in fact most big business was grown on government dollars...
Is that capitalism? State steering of "private" business?

Hmmm...sounds like what noted liberal - retired 5 star general who lead the largest army in earths history Dwight D Eisenhower said when he implored the people to stop the "military industrial congressional complex"...

Government dollars are neither freedom nor capitalism. The inefficient military complex is another issue that we might agree on! The fact that government hands out money does not take away the fact that freedom and capitalism made America what it is today. America became the greatest and wealthiest nation on earth before government became the uncontrollable monster it is today. I am all for government not handing out any dollars to business. Government is so unbelievably bloated and overlarge it boggles the mind if you examine it closely. I deal with the Federal bureaucracy in my job. We might actually agree on reducing power and limiting congress, especially in funding business.

How this relates to Walt Disney World? WDW became a special area in many ways out of the reach of local and state governments. As a result a wonderful business grew and changed the entire area for the better. Had the state and local governments been more involved we may not have the WDW we know and love today.

Anyway, I think we are from slightly different places on the political spectrum. We will have to agree to disagree. But we both love Disney!

 

[clsteve]

How is this, or why is this being done? I suspect the union jobs are much more likely to be a layoff than WDW direct-esp after 90 days?

Either way it is an amazing opp for all of these folks compared to whats available around here-and its a fairly good job market up here.

One last thing-these 3 know more about WDW and how to improve the guest experience than 99% of the workers I encounter there (and most are pretty good actually).

Outsourcing.

You've highlighted a boots on the ground, real world, right now example of TWDC's initiative and direction with it's workforce. Drop as much as possible into long term contracts with partners who carry that workforce liability while it's a line item expenditure for them.

 

[jade1]

Outsourcing.

You've highlighted a boots on the ground, real world, right now example of TWDC's initiative and direction with it's workforce. Drop as much as possible into long term contracts with partners who carry that workforce liability while it's a line item expenditure for them.

So what's your take on the kids I mentioned?

Should they migrate to WDW direct if at all possible? Or keep the union gigs, by the way the union also is oddly flexible IMO. You can just call for days off and they plug someone else in-not used to that up here, you start with 1 maybe 2 weeks of PTO per year and you don't miss otherwise.

Also are they (these union kids) frowned upon by some on this board and/or WDW employees for wrecking the system? They never seem to see/hear anything negative when they are working.

I guess the last thing is, does it matter? I firmly believe WDW is better off with this group working there, union or otherwise. Or are will they pay for it in the long run by not having much of a WDW direct future-no where to go maxed out type of thing.

 

[clsteve]

So what's your take on the kids I mentioned?

Should they migrate to WDW direct if at all possible? Or keep the union gigs, by the way the union also is oddly flexible IMO. You can just call for days off and they plug someone else in-not used to that up here, you start with 1 maybe 2 weeks of PTO per year and you don't miss otherwise.

Also are they (these union kids) frowned upon by some on this board and/or WDW employees for wrecking the system? They never seem to see/hear anything negative when they are working.

I guess the last thing is, does it matter? I firmly believe WDW is better off with this group working there, union or otherwise. Or are will they pay for it in the long run by not having much of a WDW direct future-no where to go maxed out type of thing.

Frowned upon? Heck no. Not by me anyway. They're young and starting out. Can't really comment without knowing what their future aspirations are. But, if I knew them, all I'd say is go for the best ratio of cash-to-experience gained. Quality experience is the only bankable anyone gains at that stage of their life.

Hard to know from far away what the contractual obligations, it's length, or the relationship between TDO and the contractor (and union) are, then compared to any upward mobility for the TDO positions.

But, that whole industry - so you can throw NBC/Universal, Loews, Marriott, etc., into much of the same boat - if they want to stay in that footprint, in that area..... don't just focus on WDW -grab the experience along with as much cash as possible while they're young so they have options when it comes time for things like benefits and security (if there is such a thing) to outweigh them.....

 

[jade1]

Frowned upon? Heck no. Not by me anyway. They're young and starting out. Can't really comment without knowing what their future aspirations are. But, if I knew them, all I'd say is go for the best ratio of cash-to-experience gained. Quality experience is the only bankable anyone gains at that stage of their life.

Hard to know from far away what the contractual obligations, it's length, or the relationship between TDO and the contractor (and union) are, then compared to any upward mobility for the TDO positions.

But, that whole industry - so you can throw NBC/Universal, Loews, Marriott, etc., into much of the same boat - if they want to stay in that footprint, in that area..... don't just focus on WDW -grab the experience along with as much cash as possible while they're young so they have options when it comes time for things like benefits and security (if there is such a thing) to outweigh them.....

I appreciate the response, much to think about, thanks.

I wish there was a way to investigate these unions and contracts etc.

Sorry, back to the hotel occupancy.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Regarding employee satisfaction, it seems to me that practically every career in every job category is unhappy right now. I heard of young MDs on residency saying they regret going into medicine. Family doctor told me how much it sucks 'cause she's becoming more and more of a virtual government employee rather than an independent professional. Pharmacists ditto. I heard an accountant strongly discouraging a young college student from majoring in accounting. "This job really sucks right now, there's no money in it." Teachers in public schools are among the most bitter and jaded people that I know, because of the gradual erosion of their pay, benefits and working conditions. And that's not even scratching the surface of the discontent of people working in retail etc. who just can't get enough hours to pay their bills, keep a car on the road, etc.

More and more young people seem to be angling for a government job, but so many want to be a teacher, police, firefighter, etc. that they spend years getting college diplomas, and/or bachelors degrees or even masters degrees hoping that maybe, someday, they'll win the lottery and get in the door. Meanwhile they're total chumps because they're never going to get in unless they have relatives or close family friends in the department, or if they're whatever ethnic or minority group is flavor-of-the-month. Even if they "get in", government jobs are literally rationed with a couple of shifts here, a couple there, and maybe in 10 years you'll hit one out of the park and get on full time.

People may feel like private companies are chiseling their employees ... but hoo-boy I've heard some lulus about how the government is chiseling. Like, the nurses at a publicly-owned hospital have to examine their paychecks with a fine-tooth comb and a calculator because nearly every pay period, the payroll people have shaved off hours or overtime "by mistake". Whenever patients get a mix of government-paid care plus private insurance upgrades, I am told that the hospital is systematically defrauding the insurance companies by charging them for extra services that COULD HAVE been provided to the patient, but actually weren't because of lack of availability or because the patient didn't ask for it. Chiseling out of financial desperation. And I heard that the government's big plan to get their budget situation under control is (get this) to find ways to make their monopoly liquor and gambling rackets more profitable! That and "carbon taxes".

These are specifically Canadian issues right now but the overall scene is the same just about everywhere. The economy is seizing up ... work sucks, spending money sucks, saving money sucks, debt sucks and taxes suck. And it ain't a free-market phenomenon. There's no such thing as a free-market central bank!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So what's your take on the kids I mentioned?
.

Since you brought it up...
I think you need to check your sources...

Those numbers don't jive.

I believe average stating salary at wdw is around $7.93 and there is a low "top out" that limits salary from the get to.

As far as unions go... There is alot of union labor there...but it's voluntary so it's effectively powerless. Unions get almost nothing in negotiations with wdw every time. The state is rigged for that.
Those wages seem high estimates too.

Unless they are - as suggested -contract work were there's no overhead liability or guarantees taken on...that would be worth "higher pay"

 

[clsteve]

Regarding employee satisfaction, it seems to me that practically every career in every job category is unhappy right now. I heard of young MDs on residency saying they regret going into medicine. Family doctor told me how much it sucks 'cause she's becoming more and more of a virtual government employee rather than an independent professional. Pharmacists ditto. I heard an accountant strongly discouraging a young college student from majoring in accounting. "This job really sucks right now, there's no money in it." Teachers in public schools are among the most bitter and jaded people that I know, because of the gradual erosion of their pay, benefits and working conditions. And that's not even scratching the surface of the discontent of people working in retail etc. who just can't get enough hours to pay their bills, keep a car on the road, etc.

More and more young people seem to be angling for a government job, but so many want to be a teacher, police, firefighter, etc. that they spend years getting college diplomas, and/or bachelors degrees or even masters degrees hoping that maybe, someday, they'll win the lottery and get in the door. Meanwhile they're total chumps because they're never going to get in unless they have relatives or close family friends in the department, or if they're whatever ethnic or minority group is flavor-of-the-month. Even if they "get in", government jobs are literally rationed with a couple of shifts here, a couple there, and maybe in 10 years you'll hit one out of the park and get on full time.

People may feel like private companies are chiseling their employees ... but hoo-boy I've heard some lulus about how the government is chiseling. Like, the nurses at a publicly-owned hospital have to examine their paychecks with a fine-tooth comb and a calculator because nearly every pay period, the payroll people have shaved off hours or overtime "by mistake". Whenever patients get a mix of government-paid care plus private insurance upgrades, I am told that the hospital is systematically defrauding the insurance companies by charging them for extra services that COULD HAVE been provided to the patient, but actually weren't because of lack of availability or because the patient didn't ask for it. Chiseling out of financial desperation. And I heard that the government's big plan to get their budget situation under control is (get this) to find ways to make their monopoly liquor and gambling rackets more profitable! That and "carbon taxes".

These are specifically Canadian issues right now but the overall scene is the same just about everywhere. The economy is seizing up ... work sucks, spending money sucks, saving money sucks, debt sucks and taxes suck. And it ain't a free-market phenomenon. There's no such thing as a free-market central bank!

Great post. Especially for a Sunday night. One following a made-up Holiday. A holiday made by corporations just for consumption. Can't debate that - whether we're Lib's, Tories, or Molatov-cocktail-carrying Anarchists.

We're a consumptive society. The basis of this Board is exactly that

No reason to debate the positives and negatives here. Jade, if those kids are smart, just tell them to make sure they're on the correct side of that argument - career and person. It'll save them a lot of $200/per hour discussions when they get older

 

[jade1]

Regarding employee satisfaction, it seems to me that practically every career in every job category is unhappy right now. I heard of young MDs on residency saying they regret going into medicine. Family doctor told me how much it sucks 'cause she's becoming more and more of a virtual government employee rather than an independent professional. Pharmacists ditto. I heard an accountant strongly discouraging a young college student from majoring in accounting. "This job really sucks right now, there's no money in it." Teachers in public schools are among the most bitter and jaded people that I know, because of the gradual erosion of their pay, benefits and working conditions. And that's not even scratching the surface of the discontent of people working in retail etc. who just can't get enough hours to pay their bills, keep a car on the road, etc.

More and more young people seem to be angling for a government job, but so many want to be a teacher, police, firefighter, etc. that they spend years getting college diplomas, and/or bachelors degrees or even masters degrees hoping that maybe, someday, they'll win the lottery and get in the door. Meanwhile they're total chumps because they're never going to get in unless they have relatives or close family friends in the department, or if they're whatever ethnic or minority group is flavor-of-the-month. Even if they "get in", government jobs are literally rationed with a couple of shifts here, a couple there, and maybe in 10 years you'll hit one out of the park and get on full time.

People may feel like private companies are chiseling their employees ... but hoo-boy I've heard some lulus about how the government is chiseling. Like, the nurses at a publicly-owned hospital have to examine their paychecks with a fine-tooth comb and a calculator because nearly every pay period, the payroll people have shaved off hours or overtime "by mistake". Whenever patients get a mix of government-paid care plus private insurance upgrades, I am told that the hospital is systematically defrauding the insurance companies by charging them for extra services that COULD HAVE been provided to the patient, but actually weren't because of lack of availability or because the patient didn't ask for it. Chiseling out of financial desperation. And I heard that the government's big plan to get their budget situation under control is (get this) to find ways to make their monopoly liquor and gambling rackets more profitable! That and "carbon taxes".

These are specifically Canadian issues right now but the overall scene is the same just about everywhere. The economy is seizing up ... work sucks, spending money sucks, saving money sucks, debt sucks and taxes suck. And it ain't a free-market phenomenon. There's no such thing as a free-market central bank!

Similar thinking around here, that's why $15 to $20 with no experience and no college debt was so attractive-plus amazing weather.

Since you brought it up...
I think you need to check your sources...

Those numbers don't jive.

I believe average stating salary at wdw is around $7.93 and there is a low "top out" that limits salary from the get to.

As far as unions go... There is alot of union labor there...but it's voluntary so it's effectively powerless. Unions get almost nothing in negotiations with wdw every time. The state is rigged for that.
Those wages seem high estimates too.

Unless they are - as suggested -contract work were there's no overhead liability or guarantees taken on...that would be worth "higher pay"

Very reliable source/s-is there any chance your numbers may include CP?

 

[jade1]

Great post. Especially for a Sunday night. One following a made-up Holiday. A holiday made by corporations just for consumption. Can't debate that - whether we're Lib's, Tories, or Molatov-cocktail-carrying Anarchists.

We're a consumptive society. The basis of this Board is exactly that

No reason to debate the positives and negatives here. Jade, if those kids are smart, just tell them to make sure they're on the correct side of that argument - career and person. It'll save them a lot of $200/per hour discussions when they get older

Will do.

 

[RUSTYGATOR]

I work at a company that is small to midsize and has put an effort into placement on best places to work lists these last 5 years. Yes, there are some things they can do to manipulate the numbers.

Firstly, most of these surveys are web based now, so that likely means desk job (higher paid) employees are more likely to respond. With IT resources being managed by the company and separately coded surveys, people are afraid to be honest on the surveys. They further categorize the survey by your department, so we are told that we should not use identifiable data as our managers will see our responses. We are are told by management that if you are having a bad day, or have issues don't feel the need to fill out the survey.

There is a lot of internal think and PR work behind these surveys. The days of them being completed on paper and being non-identifiable are long gone. I would guess if you looked at it, a large percentage of white collar positions fill out the survey, a ok response for long term and very little response from part-time and college program individuals.

Now, all companies probably manipulate these surveys and the one thing Disney has is a nice warm and sunny environment and serving people who are generally happy that they meet each day.

 

[George4]

Bringing this back towards the topic of hotel capacity, I think you are going to begin seeing growth in their on-site hotel facilities. If they are at capacity, and their goal with Magic Bands is to move more guests on site, then Disney's only next step is to add hotel capacity. They will continue to build DVC as well, because that program, in essence, pays for the hotel construction and the maintenance fees pay for the ongoing expenses. Even if no one ever stays at the hotel, it is completely paid for at that point. As they build additional facilities, it covers their transportation costs (buses, monorail, boats, etc.) and operating costs and adds guests to their parks - from the business perspective that is win-win. It just doesn't make the rest of us happy because we stop enjoying going to the parks.

I don't mind the hotels, but without expanding the parks, increased hotel capacity will only mean more crowds during Extra Magic Hours in addition to regular hours. This is just lose-lose (if I'm right about the hotels) for the rest of us.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't think you'll see a "traditional" hotel expansion in the tradition of Disney owned/and operated resorts for quite sometime...perhaps ever.

I think you will see the DVC model stressed even more than it has been since the ramp up starting with Saratoga...because they shed roughly half of the employee/operational costs on them - and that's important.

You'll also see more flamingo crossing type action - if successful.

Pop century was authorized in 2001...animal kingdom lodge 99-ish...five years from the end if Eisner who tried the third party model in the late 80's and just didnt like it too much...
But I think economically it's a completely different world - and you honestly can't compared the two.
My...how much of a different world do we live in than 1986-ish...when that management really am established their plan/strategy?

It's almost mind boggling - if you look at it closely...

 

[George4]

I agree. I think it will mostly be a DVC expansion. It just makes better business sense since it guarantees that their bills are paid, but not from their own coffers.

 

[DisneyDetective]

How big is the land that Disney own?

 

[rteetz]

How big is the land that Disney own?

It's always changing the rought estimate that most people and Disney gives is twice the size of Manhattan and the same size as San francisco but Disney is always buying and selling pieces of land.

 

[George4]

You can find maps of their approximate land ownership through the maps at Reedy Creek improvement District. It is about 27,000 acres (43 sq. miles).