Disney parks costs, crowds, and categorizations

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't think that building another gate/resort in the US is affordable these days in Disney's eyes. Building a 5th gate in Orlando would only cannibalize their other parks' numbers, considering that people's vacations are not getting any longer. Disneyland could potentially buy some more land and build a third gate, but then again, that requires more hotels, more parking, more staff and so on, which they don't really have the space for. I don't think a third resort in the US is in Disney's inmediate future either. There's a reason behind Disney's growing interest in emerging markets: operational costs.

One of the things I mentioned multiple times with my husband about wanting to go for the 50th (which will depend on soooo many things it's way too early to even think too much about it) is we're already pushing with how long we're gone.

Both WDW and USO will have a lot more stuff to experience and...we don't have an infinite amount of time. 5 days at WDW and 3 days at USO in a 10 day (including arrival and departure days) vacation was/is about what we can use for vacation (we luckily were able to extend to 11 days for this most recent trip). And I don't want to just skip over the classics or say bye bye to stuff. *sigh* it's been a discussion because we know we'll eventually go back..when it the question and how we will tour is the other question (will we try and add more WDW days, will 3 be enough for USO still, would we be able to extend our vacation or have to adjust how we do the parks, etc).

I would love a 5th gate truly. I'm just not sure at what point would it potentially the crowds (as in how many years have to go by before things settle down at least somewhat) and at what point can I realistically experience it all.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Thanks for this! Listened to these towards the end of the day and on my commute home. I have a few thoughts:

- As far as food costs go, I can't figure out how Disney justifies the insane increase! I'd never realized how intense the adjusted-for-inflation increases were. I encourage you all to listen, but it's significant.

- The Disney "classification" levels are very eye-opening. As someone who's very involved and meticulous with my budgeting spreadsheets, it was interesting to hear what American families spend on vacations and what Disney considers their main demographics. Also it made me understand the need for organizations like Give Kids the World a whole lot more. This is also hard for me to fully understand because I'm from So Cal. Even most of those who aren't well off have been to Disneyland at least once.

- General thought: I get it, Disney costs have really skyrocketed, even adjusted for increases of cost of living/inflation. The inequality of Americans IS shocking and a solution is needed. But my BIGGEST pet peeve is when people talk about problems as if there's an easy solution. Sure, it sounds great to say: "Lower costs. Don't raise costs so much." But they didn't at all discuss the impact that would have on crowds. Because I guarantee that if prices were significantly more affordable, the parks would be even more crowded and these boards would be filled with folks swearing off of Disney because it's too crowded. I don't know what the answer is but I wish they would have discussed this.

Overall, great listen! Thanks for sharing!

Disney does NOT look @ price versus crowds to make the Guests HAPPY!
Period.

Disney cares about how much guests are spending. If no guests are spending money or guests stop going that means less money. Then shareholders would be very unhappy.

So I listened to all three of the Len Testa Mouse and Miles podcasts (thanks again for posting about it @rteetz) - found it very interesting and have some thoughts .... not sure if this point it makes more sense to start a new thread about it or ok here


To the points about making guests happy and how that makes shareholders happy - shareholders/investors focus mostly on the next quarter or perhaps the next year ... look at all the short positions that are now out on Disney - not because they think Disney is going out of business but that over the next 1-4 quarters the earnings are going to be less than desirable and thus the stock price will go down ... so the number crunchers - based on what management is telling them (which is really what Iger is saying) are telling them to maximize revenues now - not for 20 years from now ... or even 3 years from now


A key point I took from len was that there are tons of people that can no longer afford to come to Disney or maybe can but know it is really above what they *should* spend but still have that emotional connection - but will the next generation have that same nostalgic connection to justify paying what it costs or will they do something else?

The issue I see is - what is the solution? The parks are still incredibly crowded so how can they justify lowering the prices? That wont' reduce the crowds. Easy to say build more parks, more attractions, but that just brings more people. And the Magic Kingdom is still the Magic Kingdom and will still be the most crowded. I do agree with Len that they should have built more Star Wars attractions than they are (though I know they are seeing the Land itself as an attraction)

AND if they announced they were lowering all the prices - the stock price would tank because Wall St would take that as a signal they are struggling and earnings will be taking a hit ... they won't want to hear that this is a long term play to help for generations

I do think building another WDW in the midwest or something would be interesting (and would also address the concern of rising temperatures and water levels eventually hitting Florida) - but not sure if that works either

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I do think building another WDW in the midwest or something would be interesting (and would also address the concern of rising temperatures and water levels eventually hitting Florida) - but not sure if that works either

Living in the midwest wouldn't it be awesome to have a Disney park here!!??

And then I remember......all the parks around me are seasonal.

So question is would Disney want to (and obviously we're just speaking about random thoughts) build where the seasons will greatly impact your ability to have the parks open.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

One of the things I mentioned multiple times with my husband about wanting to go for the 50th (which will depend on soooo many things it's way too early to even think too much about it) is we're already pushing with how long we're gone.

Both WDW and USO will have a lot more stuff to experience and...we don't have an infinite amount of time. 5 days at WDW and 3 days at USO in a 10 day (including arrival and departure days) vacation was/is about what we can use for vacation (we luckily were able to extend to 11 days for this most recent trip). And I don't want to just skip over the classics or say bye bye to stuff. *sigh* it's been a discussion because we know we'll eventually go back..when it the question and how we will tour is the other question (will we try and add more WDW days, will 3 be enough for USO still, would we be able to extend our vacation or have to adjust how we do the parks, etc).

I would love a 5th gate truly. I'm just not sure at what point would it potentially the crowds (as in how many years have to go by before things settle down at least somewhat) and at what point can I realistically experience it all.

It is a fair question and perhaps it comes down to ... you CAN'T experience it all and maybe you don't do all the parks in one trip. even for your upcoming dilema, maybe for that 50th trip you only do WDW and do USO in 2020 or something (just throwing out ideas - but you are spot on, if they keep adding things in that location, then it becomes something where you have pick and choose and another reason I am not sure adding a 5th gate is the best option

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Living in the midwest wouldn't it be awesome to have a Disney park here!!??

And then I remember......all the parks around me are seasonal.

So question is would Disney want to (and obviously we're just speaking about random thoughts) build where the seasons will greatly impact your ability to have the parks open.

I guess depends where in the Midwest, but like Texas or I know they considered St Louis in the past - not sure if those could be open year round

 

[Capang]

I don't know if anyone listens to the Mickey Miles and More Podcast but they had Len Testa on their past three episodes. They have been discussing Disney pricing structures from 1999 to today. They have also brought into account the household incomes, average number of vacation days, and how Disney classes their vacationers. It is a really interesting discussion and something I think goes unnoticed at times.

The cost comparisons are pretty shocking. I work in a lower middle class area/working class families and so many of them go to Disney every year. When I go in a few weeks I will probably bump in to several of my students who will also be there. I'm not sure how families afford this, heck I'm not sure how we swung this upcoming trip. I listened to these a few times each because there was just so much to digest. It does sort of ring with what @lockedoutlogic has been saying for quite some time. I also have a new appreciation for all that Eisner did in terms of letting the creative people and imagineers have some leeway in what they were working on. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Roxyfire]

I guess depends where in the Midwest, but like Texas or I know they considered St Louis in the past - not sure if those could be open year round

I think in order to be open year round, it could be as far north as maybe Memphis/Little Rock. Not sure about Indy or Louisville, I'm unfamiliar with their winter weather. Dallas might be the best choice overall based on airport, location, population, and weather.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

The cost comparisons are pretty shocking. I work in a lower middle class area/working class families and so many of them go to Disney every year. When I go in a few weeks I will probably bump in to several of my students who will also be there. I'm not sure how families afford this, heck I'm not sure how we swung this upcoming trip. I listened to these a few times each because there was just so much to digest. It does sort of ring with what @lockedoutlogic has been saying for quite some time. I also have a new appreciation for all that Eisner did in terms of letting the creative people and imagineers have some leeway in what they were working on. Thanks for the recommendation!

I know on the podcast they talked a lot about what % of their total budget people spend on vacations - but some people are just willing to allocate a higher % of it and then less to a new(erish) car or they eat out less or whatever

I do think it stresses the best set up for long term growth for the company (not financially but in brand, etc.) is with the CEO being creative and then having a strong financial person supporting them (as both Walt and Eisner had)

 

[AMusicLifeForMe]

Living in the midwest wouldn't it be awesome to have a Disney park here!!??

And then I remember......all the parks around me are seasonal.

So question is would Disney want to (and obviously we're just speaking about random thoughts) build where the seasons will greatly impact your ability to have the parks open.

Yep. I think the park that is open the longest in our area is Silver Dollar City. That park is only closed in January, February, and part of March.

I guess depends where in the Midwest, but like Texas or I know they considered St Louis in the past - not sure if those could be open year round

St. Louis was considered for an indoor park. St. Louis and where I live are generally the same climate since it is pretty much a straight shot. Any outdoor park in my area is seasonal I believe. I know Michael Bowling talked about the St. Louis park on the Connecting With Walt podcast. I think if disney considered a park in the Midwest, it would have to be in Texas. However, I know Texas can still get pretty cold, and I think snow on occasion.

 

[OhioStateBuckeye]

I'm going to reserve judgement on this for now - I think it will depend a lot on the story they tell. Kids can carry a good story line (e.g. Harry Potter, Hunger Games) to build a franchise around...perhaps this what they are hoping it will become. I agree if they dumb things down it will not be good, but if they continue with the themes of the first one (all living things are connected, taking care of the planet, modernization/colonization vs. indigenous culture) and have mature character development I think it could be good. I don't know how much the development of the land and the development of the movies were connected, but it could also be a decision to go in this direction to make the land itself more interesting/sought after by kids.

Oh I totally agree kids can carry a movie. Some of my favorite movies are kid based, like the Goonies and Harry Potter. My worry is that movies that traditionally go from adult stars to kid stars flounder, like my two examples.

I think there is a chance that it could be good, I am just doubtful.

So I listened to all three of the Len Testa Mouse and Miles podcasts (thanks again for posting about it @rteetz) - found it very interesting and have some thoughts .... not sure if this point it makes more sense to start a new thread about it or ok here



The issue I see is - what is the solution? The parks are still incredibly crowded so how can they justify lowering the prices? That wont' reduce the crowds. Easy to say build more parks, more attractions, but that just brings more people. And the Magic Kingdom is still the Magic Kingdom and will still be the most crowded. I do agree with Len that they should have built more Star Wars attractions than they are (though I know they are seeing the Land itself as an attraction)

Maybe we should start a new thread. But I agree with your points. What in the world is the solution if not a 3rd US based park. Do they just keep raising the prices? That is the only way I can see to combat the increased attendance. But in that case, they do keep a lot of people away who would like to experience their product.

Living in the midwest wouldn't it be awesome to have a Disney park here!!??

And then I remember......all the parks around me are seasonal.

So question is would Disney want to (and obviously we're just speaking about random thoughts) build where the seasons will greatly impact your ability to have the parks open.

I know I'm repeating myself...but Texas. I live in Austin. We barely have any days colder than the mid 50s in the winter. We also don't have the humidity of Florida and it doesn't rain a lot.

There are 2 huge major cities within a few hours drive, Dallas and Houston. Tons of available land out here.

It takes about 2 and a half hours to fly to Orlando from here and 3 to fly to Anaheim. Seems pretty in the middle.

It is a fair question and perhaps it comes down to ... you CAN'T experience it all and maybe you don't do all the parks in one trip. even for your upcoming dilema, maybe for that 50th trip you only do WDW and do USO in 2020 or something (just throwing out ideas - but you are spot on, if they keep adding things in that location, then it becomes something where you have pick and choose and another reason I am not sure adding a 5th gate is the best option

Yep, I think it's been discussed a lot here that at this point WDW is just taking visitors from itself. Can the guests really do 4 parks and 2 water parks and numerous other activities in one trip? Nope, not most people. So adding a 5th gate doesn't seem to make the most sense. It might spread people out a bit more...but I just don't know.

I guess depends where in the Midwest, but like Texas or I know they considered St Louis in the past - not sure if those could be open year round

See what I posted above about Texas. I think it is actually a more ideal location that Orlando. Houston gets a decent amount of rain because they are next to the ocean. The farther inland you go near Austin the less rain you get.

 

[OhioStateBuckeye]

I think if disney considered a park in the Midwest, it would have to be in Texas. However, I know Texas can still get pretty cold, and I think snow on occasion.

Some parts of Texas get snow, the eastern/middle part does not. I've been in Austin for 2 and a half years now and we had an ice warning once and it didn't happen. I don't think it's ever got below the 40s when I've been here. I think it would be unusual to get below 50 in the winter.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I guess depends where in the Midwest, but like Texas or I know they considered St Louis in the past - not sure if those could be open year round

I'm not sure about TX (it probably would be better there as far as weather) but STL would be seasonal for sure (I live about 3-3 1/2 hrs west of STL).

Now Worlds of Fun {starting this year} (in KC), Silver Dollar City (in Brandon) and Six Flags (in St Louis) are now open for select winter nights (or starting afternoon until night) but it's for holiday season...IDK about you but you're not getting me on a ride in 40 degrees and below weather plus snow in December-Feb though November gets cold too. Those are more for experiencing the ambience with lights, characters, etc rather than riding attractions. Normal operating is spring-fall (like true fall where it's basically Halloween and end of normal season) with water parks being more limited.

 

[OhioStateBuckeye]

https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/austin/texas/united-states/ustx2742

Here is some weather data. That says the average low in January is 42 degrees, but I honestly don't remember it ever getting that cold. Maybe Austin has had an easy winter the past few years.

 

[TexasKiwiPrincess]

Some parts of Texas get snow, the eastern/middle part does not. I've been in Austin for 2 and a half years now and we had an ice warning once and it didn't happen. I don't think it's ever got below the 40s when I've been here. I think it would be unusual to get below 50 in the winter.

While snow and ice might not be a big issue, I'm not sure how they would plan around possible tornadoes. If you've been in Texas for 2.5 years you might not remember the tornado that hit Jarrell, just North of Austin. We also just had the tornadoes out by Canton this year, and a previous one that hit downtown Fort Worth. It's been awhile since Dallas took a direct hit, but Denton has it's regular share of severe weather. Not just a safety issue, but also a property damage concern. I'm sure repairs would be expensive, and likely a more regular occurrence than hurricane damage.* At least that's my thought process as to why Disney never built out that land they are rumored to "own" off 380! LOL

ETA: *Not necessarily damage from official tornadoes, but damage from the severe weather (winds, heavy rains, flash flooding) that CAN produce tornadoes.

http://www.statesman.com/news/local...s-the-jarrell-tornado/HKdFKDYWGwYSyHDeHOxW2K/

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I'm not sure about TX (it probably would be better there as far as weather) but STL would be seasonal for sure (I live about 3-3 1/2 hrs west of STL).

Now Worlds of Fun {starting this year} (in KC), Silver Dollar City (in Brandon) and Six Flags (in St Louis) are now open for select winter nights (or starting afternoon until night) but it's for holiday season...IDK about you but you're not getting me on a ride in 40 degrees and below weather plus snow in December-Feb though November gets cold too. Those are more for experiencing the ambience with lights, characters, etc rather than riding attractions. Normal operating is spring-fall (like true fall where it's basically Halloween and end of normal season) with water parks being more limited.

Relatively near me is Hershey Park which is in middle of Pennsylvania - and they do the same ... have holiday themed nights where the parks are open in December, etc. - but not all of the attractions are open

The other option is that you have parks that are only open seasonally ... certainly enough people in the NY Metro area to support a park that is only open 7 months a year .... obviously would be a different experience than going to WDW but could still be of the Disney quality and allow for people that can't afford to fly to Florida to experience "Disney"

 

[rteetz]

I do think building another WDW in the midwest or something would be interesting (and would also address the concern of rising temperatures and water levels eventually hitting Florida) - but not sure if that works either

I just don't think that would work. You are then hurting attendance at both WDW and DL say if you built in Texas. If you build in the midwest or northeast you are looking at a park that would have to be built for the climate.

I think Disney needs to focus on building up the three non-MK parks to make them more appealing to spread out the crowds. Something interesting to note is Epcot attendance peaked in 1987 and hasn't seen those numbers since.

 

[rteetz]

St. Louis was considered for an indoor park. St. Louis and where I live are generally the same climate since it is pretty much a straight shot. Any outdoor park in my area is seasonal I believe. I know Michael Bowling talked about the St. Louis park on the Connecting With Walt podcast. I think if disney considered a park in the Midwest, it would have to be in Texas. However, I know Texas can still get pretty cold, and I think snow on occasion.

Texas is not Midwest.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

While snow and ice might not be a big issue, I'm not sure how they would plan around possible tornadoes. If you've been in Texas for 2.5 years you might not remember the tornado that hit Jarrell, just North of Austin. We also just had the tornadoes out by Canton this year, and a previous one that hit downtown Fort Worth. It's been awhile since Dallas took a direct hit, but Denton has it's regular share of severe weather. Not just a safety issue, but also a property damage concern. I'm sure repairs would be expensive, and likely a more regular occurrence than hurricane damage. At least that's my thought process as to why Disney never built out that land they are rumored to "own" off 380! LOL

http://www.statesman.com/news/local...s-the-jarrell-tornado/HKdFKDYWGwYSyHDeHOxW2K/

We get tornadoes too in KC, so does STL and so does FL. I'm not sure tornadoes are enough of a steady risk like other facets of weather such as temperature and snowfall, etc.

Now if we're talking about Oklahoma City (near Norman and Moore as well) yeah that may not be the best considering the number tornadoes and earthquakes to hit that specific area in recent enough years.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Texas is not Midwest.

I was thinking that too when TX 1st got brought up but I did look up and see that the opinion can vary.

I consider it the south/south central or southwestern region of the U.S. Then again people don't always consider KS the midwest but I assure you it most def. is to us Kansans lol.

 

[TexasKiwiPrincess]

I'm not sure tornadoes are enough of a steady risk like other facets of weather such as temperature and snowfall, etc.

I love it! Please bend someone's ear and convince them to build in Texas!