Disney Is the Happiest Place on Earth, if You Can Afford It

[DCLMP]

AI is an interesting thing too. It can be very helpful and has increased in usage over the years but yeah it will and has already had an impact on jobs, like robots did before, AI is doing now.

Part of it I think is adjusting what jobs people are doing and where. It's a slow process over years but it's not like we haven't done it before. Industrial Revolution, advancements in technology using computers, sensors, robots and now AI. We have shifted and moved what jobs we do and adapted. It's getting the rest of society on board that usually takes the longest. Look how long it took for remote/work from home took to get really a hold of the job market, a pandemic created the driving force into much more acceptance which has opened up new or at least in some ways different ways of doing a job.

I think high schools need to make a shift back to encouraging kids to do trades. They've brainwashed them into thinking they have to get a college degree. You have a generation that thinks getting their hands dirty is beneath them. The funny thing is those trade jobs are making the money right now. I just paid an electrician 1300 for a job that took about two hours of work. I had to call about 20 places before I could find one that could do it right away.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I am not saying that varied knowledge is not valuable. What I am saying is that Universities are screwing their students to get that knowledge. Knowledge is totally different from a degree in something, and there are many ways to accumulate that knowledge without earning an expensive degree that will get you nowhere.

That's not the college's issue. That is the society's issue on what they determine is the value. That is literally how you get expected incomes with X degree it's based on what society values. Colleges are largely responsible for the actual tuition costs being extremely out of touch these days but they are not responsible for placing a value on getting X degree over Y degree. That push to put people in a degree by which the presumption is you'll make a certain income by the time you graduate is the lie (that's generally how its phrased) we were told when we were told a college degree is valued and if you didn't have that you'd be doing low menial jobs with a lower income. The reality was people found themselves in a job market that did not match the degree they had then they had debt that was not wiped away as quickly as they were told it would be because by the time they would get out of college they would be assuredly making a certain amount.

I noticed how you used an extreme example before by saying "Going $250,000 or more into debt in order to get a degree that will pay you 50K a year after 5 years" but that just masks the topic. The ones often going into that high of debt are those supposed high value jobs. They aren't the person going for the humanities degree like the example you used (on average). And those people who have that extreme student debt aren't the young ones. They are actually the 50-65yr olds. Law students, medical professionals are among the ones who have the highest debt. Figures I saw (last check done last month) showed law students at 140K in debt, medical professionals $200K. https://educationdata.org/average-student-loan-debt

It's playing into the hands of the trite conversations by making gross presumptions about the people who go to college and what they pursue. Of course some degrees will always be valued by society more, we need doctors for example, but writing off other degrees is essentially choosing to not value knowledge as a whole and many parts of our continued knowledge is gained by either written off fields or fields seen as lesser than.

p.s. A masters in engineering does help you get a P.E. faster. The time requirements are lower if you have a masters.

No one that my husband has known in the now just about 20yrs of being in the engineering field has gotten a masters before doing their P.E. license when the P.E. license was required/heavily valued. It's either you get your P.E. license and then do a masters sometime later or you just get your P.E. license. By faster it can mean 3 years under someone vs 4 years under someone. If you'd like to talk about being fiscally responsible getting a master's degree by means of spending more money in education just to potentially shave 1 year off that math might not make sense. If someone's company pays for a master's degree maybe but realistically if you're talking about the value of the degree (which is what the conversation was about) that master's degree doesn't boost your value the same it might in other fields and the cons to the time and potential costs usually outweigh going that route. There may be very specific engineering occupations that a masters first is more valued but not at all across the board. Admittedly I'm not fully fleshing out the validity here by raw stats (which I normally do) but this graph shows data up to 2021 looking at it


My husband knows a few that have their masters, he knows of no one who got a masters before a P.E.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think high schools need to make a shift back to encouraging kids to do trades. They've brainwashed them into thinking they have to get a college degree. You have a generation that thinks getting their hands dirty is beneath them. The funny thing is those trade jobs are making the money right now. I just paid an electrician 1300 for a job that took about two hours of work. I had to call about 20 places before I could find one that could do it right away.

Trades aren't the answer either. You can't present it like it's either/or like either do trades or do a college degree. Trades are important, so are those seeking degrees. They are all critical to our society and presenting it like one is better than the other regardless of which one you think it is does nothing but breed the same issues of before; pushing people to a track and valuing that over something else. My basic point is more about presenting value as a whole and seeing value as a whole, not saying trades are where you need to go or this degree is where you need to go. Both of those are part of the same bad coin.

And not for nothing but what something costs isn't always because of the value of the knowledge. Talk about consumer-based market companies can charge what they want so long as someone is willing to pay, it's doesn't unilaterally mean they should cost that (be wary of those who seem way too well priced and others who seem way too high priced though).

 

[gsdweller]

That's not the college's issue. That is the society's issue on what they determine is the value. That is literally how you get expected incomes with X degree it's based on what society values. Colleges are largely responsible for the actual tuition costs being extremely out of touch these days but they are not responsible for placing a value on getting X degree over Y degree. That push to put people in a degree by which the presumption is you'll make a certain income by the time you graduate is the lie (that's generally how its phrased) we were told when we were told a college degree is valued and if you didn't have that you'd be doing low menial jobs with a lower income. The reality was people found themselves in a job market that did not match the degree they had then they had debt that was not wiped away as quickly as they were told it would be because by the time they would get out of college they would be assuredly making a certain amount.

I noticed how you used an extreme example before by saying "Going $250,000 or more into debt in order to get a degree that will pay you 50K a year after 5 years" but that just masks the topic. The ones often going into that high of debt are those supposed high value jobs. They aren't the person going for the humanities degree like the example you used (on average). And those people who have that extreme student debt aren't the young ones. They are actually the 50-65yr olds. Law students, medical professionals are among the ones who have the highest debt. Figures I saw (last check done last month) showed law students at 140K in debt, medical professionals $200K. https://educationdata.org/average-student-loan-debt

It's playing into the hands of the trite conversations by making gross presumptions about the people who go to college and what they pursue. Of course some degrees will always be valued by society more, we need doctors for example, but writing off other degrees is essentially choosing to not value knowledge as a whole and many parts of our continued knowledge is gained by either written off fields or fields seen as lesser than.


No one that my husband has known in the now just about 20yrs of being in the engineering field has gotten a masters before doing their P.E. license when the P.E. license was required/heavily valued. It's either you get your P.E. license and then do a masters sometime later or you just get your P.E. license. By faster it can mean 3 years under someone vs 4 years under someone. If you'd like to talk about being fiscally responsible getting a master's degree by means of spending more money in education just to potentially shave 1 year off that math might not make sense. If someone's company pays for a master's degree maybe but realistically if you're talking about the value of the degree (which is what the conversation was about) that master's degree doesn't boost your value the same it might in other fields and the cons to the time and potential costs usually outweigh going that route. There may be very specific engineering occupations that a masters first is more valued but not at all across the board. Admittedly I'm not fully fleshing out the validity here by raw stats (which I normally do) but this graph shows data up to 2021 looking at it
View attachment 1008721

My husband knows a few that have their masters, he knows of no one who got a masters before a P.E.

Your husband is clearly a civil engineer or in the fire protection industry. The only industries that truly 'value' a PE license. Your statements are valid, but only for those disciplines. Only 20% of all engineers have a PE license. The vast majority of those being civil engineers. While I think it is important, in most industries it means nothing.

 

[Twilghtsprkle]

I think high schools need to make a shift back to encouraging kids to do trades. They've brainwashed them into thinking they have to get a college degree. You have a generation that thinks getting their hands dirty is beneath them. The funny thing is those trade jobs are making the money right now. I just paid an electrician 1300 for a job that took about two hours of work. I had to call about 20 places before I could find one that could do it right away.

Trades are not the answer either. I do find that schools in my area do offer trades as an option. In fact there is a trade high school that kids can opt into instead of the regular town high school.

Some trades can do a number on the body. Not everyone can expect to keep doing them until retirement age. Their bodies cannot do the bending, stretching, weird positions to get the work done in their 60’s. So while they pay well, the length of employment may end up being shorter so you have to keep that in mind.

 

[Niklnip]

I think high schools need to make a shift back to encouraging kids to do trades. They've brainwashed them into thinking they have to get a college degree. You have a generation that thinks getting their hands dirty is beneath them. The funny thing is those trade jobs are making the money right now. I just paid an electrician 1300 for a job that took about two hours of work. I had to call about 20 places before I could find one that could do it right away.

This is a sweeping generalization that really only serves to dismiss up-and-coming established adults vs. actually taking a look at the 'why and how' there was such a huge push for college. Don't forget that there was a major, major acceleration of development in computer and information technology in the 70's-90's and at that time college was the best avenue for learning how to code and understand complex computer/web systems.

So really, who is the group that 'brainwashed' the children, exactly? I certainly didn't learn about college first from my peers when I was in middle and high school, and it certainly was not them telling me that I myself would be a failure if I didn't go, and that in itself was not of malicious intent. It was my family and their peers hoping that I would live better than they did at my current age. Now instead of actually agreeing with the accomplishment, myself and people in my age group now have the privilege of listening to those same people talk about how it was a waste of time and money and blaming us for it. We wanted better too, but the current economy is not allowing for that for many demographics right now.

And I'm still glad I went.

College is important not only for further practical and specialized education but also for exposure to other cultures and people outside of one's initial bubble. There are thousands upon thousands of international students, just like there are clubs, seminars, and many other avenues to allow students to physically and directly interact with and broaden their social capabilities. This is not something that the internet can teach, and it is increasingly difficult to find trustworthy sources online that allow a deeper level of education.

Trades are valuable, but not everyone is capable of doing them, and not everyone should be a doctor or an engineer or an electrician or a plumber. The world still needs librarians (which require extensive data, education, and humanities education) and sociologists just as much as it needs accountants and engineers. We also still need waitstaff, stockers, cashiers, authors, artists, cooks, dishwashers, and every other job typically seen as 'undesirable' and 'unworthy' of a living wage. Every career has value, and every career deserves a living wage and respect for what they contribute to society as a whole.

You will find that people will do the jobs that make ends meet no matter what, and plenty of people pursue and enjoy trades (myself included), and it is already seen as valuable within the people in our age group. You still have to go to school or manage to find someone willing to take you as an apprentice however, and you will pay for it later with medical bills to fix your body. Either way, there is still a massive cost to pursuing any career, especially in a day and age where it is expected, often required, to work 50-60+ hours a week with little to no benefits just to make ends meet.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Your husband is clearly a civil engineer or in the fire protection industry. The only industries that truly 'value' a PE license. Your statements are valid, but only for those disciplines. Only 20% of all engineers have a PE license. The vast majority of those being civil engineers. While I think it is important, in most industries it means nothing.

No he's in the mechanical field, technically with an aerospace engineering degree but functioning as a mechanical engineer since he was in college (he was asked to take a few courses while in college to bridge the gap between the two fields by his company who offered him a job before he graduated). He has worked at two different companies now one quite large and the present much smaller. Same story. The people he has been around are mechanical engineers, yes civil he sometimes work with sometimes design but it's mechanical mostly. His prior company (the one who hired offered him the job before he graduated) it was required to get a P.E. license though they paid for it, it's the same with this present company in order to be hired by them you have to either have your P.E. or if you're right out of college working towards it. His prior job he worked on power plants, his present job airline fueling systems. His present company he has had to get hmm IDK like 10 different states the license to work in (where you can officially stamp things) whereas his prior company he actually only got our state we live in. I believe the most recent state he got was either Idaho or Arizona.

 

[DCLMP]

This is a sweeping generalization that really only serves to dismiss up-and-coming established adults vs. actually taking a look at the 'why and how' there was such a huge push for college. Don't forget that there was a major, major acceleration of development in computer and information technology in the 70's-90's and at that time college was the best avenue for learning how to code and understand complex computer/web systems.

So really, who is the group that 'brainwashed' the children, exactly? I certainly didn't learn about college first from my peers when I was in middle and high school, and it certainly was not them telling me that I myself would be a failure if I didn't go, and that in itself was not of malicious intent. It was my family and their peers hoping that I would live better than they did at my current age. Now instead of actually agreeing with the accomplishment, myself and people in my age group now have the privilege of listening to those same people talk about how it was a waste of time and money and blaming us for it. We wanted better too, but the current economy is not allowing for that for many demographics right now.

And I'm still glad I went.

College is important not only for further practical and specialized education but also for exposure to other cultures and people outside of one's initial bubble. There are thousands upon thousands of international students, just like there are clubs, seminars, and many other avenues to allow students to physically and directly interact with and broaden their social capabilities. This is not something that the internet can teach, and it is increasingly difficult to find trustworthy sources online that allow a deeper level of education.

Trades are valuable, but not everyone is capable of doing them, and not everyone should be a doctor or an engineer or an electrician or a plumber. The world still needs librarians (which require extensive data, education, and humanities education) and sociologists just as much as it needs accountants and engineers. We also still need waitstaff, stockers, cashiers, authors, artists, cooks, dishwashers, and every other job typically seen as 'undesirable' and 'unworthy' of a living wage. Every career has value, and every career deserves a living wage and respect for what they contribute to society as a whole.

You will find that people will do the jobs that make ends meet no matter what, and plenty of people pursue and enjoy trades (myself included), and it is already seen as valuable within the people in our age group. You still have to go to school or manage to find someone willing to take you as an apprentice however, and you will pay for it later with medical bills to fix your body. Either way, there is still a massive cost to pursuing any career, especially in a day and age where it is expected, often required, to work 50-60+ hours a week with little to no benefits just to make ends meet.

Brainwashed is just a figure of speech. Don't get yourself tied into knots over it. Your points are all pretty obvious.

 

[disneyseniors]

I think high schools need to make a shift back to encouraging kids to do trades. They've brainwashed them into thinking they have to get a college degree. You have a generation that thinks getting their hands dirty is beneath them. The funny thing is those trade jobs are making the money right now. I just paid an electrician 1300 for a job that took about two hours of work. I had to call about 20 places before I could find one that could do it right away.

I agree with you. We need more people in the trades, and a lot of them pay very well with excellent benefits, and no 4 or 5 year college debt. My grandson is in school for an electrician via a community college. His uncle is an electrician and is in great demand. Not saying college degrees are not useful, not at all. I just think that the trades from community college are needed too.

 

[DCLMP]

Trades are not the answer either. I do find that schools in my area do offer trades as an option. In fact there is a trade high school that kids can opt into instead of the regular town high school.

Some trades can do a number on the body. Not everyone can expect to keep doing them until retirement age. Their bodies cannot do the bending, stretching, weird positions to get the work done in their 60’s. So while they pay well, the length of employment may end up being shorter so you have to keep that in mind.

I don't think selecting a career based on what your health is going to be like in your 60's is wise decision. Nobody can predict that.

 

[DCLMP]

I agree with you. We need more people in the trades, and a lot of them pay very well with excellent benefits, and no 4 or 5 year college debt. My grandson is in school for an electrician via a community college. His uncle is an electrician and is in great demand. Not saying college degrees are not useful, not at all. I just think that the trades from community college are needed too.

I would encourage your grandson to someday start his own business. Never having to deal with a boss sounds like the ultimate career to me.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I agree with you. We need more people in the trades, and a lot of them pay very well with excellent benefits, and no 4 or 5 year college debt. My grandson is in school for an electrician via a community college. His uncle is an electrician and is in great demand. Not saying college degrees are not useful, not at all. I just think that the trades from community college are needed too.

Our community college has that but recently had to increase tuition. It's still quite a good value, I technically was a student there as a dual one taking high school french as college credit as well as a math class before starting college and then while in college I took my biology and biology lab. That said it's funded in part by taxpayers via property taxes. Depending on where you live a 4-yr college may be the same in our state.

In my state the big colleges always raise the tuition when the state reduces their funding. It's not that community college is a cheaper route because it's a community college although that is a true statement but there are also factors going on. In 2023 we paid $544, in 2024 it was $593 and is projected to be $602 for 2025 for the community college on our property taxes. That's only to say that debt free from the student's perspective is also subjective.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't think selecting a career based on what your health is going to be like in your 60's is wise decision. Nobody can predict that.

I don't think that's what the poster was saying, more like it's a physically demanding job which can limit your future options as your body wears out. It's like jobs that have "hazard pay" depending on what that means to that specific job can mean it's a tradeoff either for overall health, health risks (like exposures to chemicals, or highly dangerous jobs), safety concerns, etc. Or athletes where certain sports have shorter timeframes due to injuries or wear and tear and others have longer timeframes.

But as an aside I do actually think that looking at what your life may entail from a physically demanding or exposure related aspect should be part of one's decision. Some occupations while often very necessary may also come with risks of chemical exposure or an increase risk of that, or they may come with an increase risk in joint issues. Just as someone viewing sitting at a desk for a prolonged period of time for their career may find that would not do well for their health.

 

[DCLMP]

I don't think that's what the poster was saying, more like it's a physically demanding job which can limit your future options as your body wears out. It's like jobs that have "hazard pay" depending on what that means to that specific job can mean it's a tradeoff either for overall health, health risks (like exposures to chemicals, or highly dangerous jobs), safety concerns, etc. Or athletes where certain sports have shorter timeframes due to injuries or wear and tear and others have longer timeframes.

But as an aside I do actually think that looking at what your life may entail from a physically demanding or exposure related aspect should be part of one's decision. Some occupations while often very necessary may also come with risks of chemical exposure or an increase risk of that, or they may come with an increase risk in joint issues. Just as someone viewing sitting at a desk for a prolonged period of time for their career may find that would not do well for their health.

I wouldn't compare a trade job to being an athlete. Many people do physical jobs well into their 60's. Sitting on your butt all day isn't healthy either. The majority of the people in this country are overweight with numerous health issues. It's a very strange argument for not pursuing a career. The most important thing is do something that interests you or at least makes you enough money to do the things that interest you.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I wouldn't compare a trade job to being an athlete. Many people do physical jobs well into their 60's. Sitting on your butt all day isn't healthy either. The majority of the people in this country are overweight with numerous health issues. It's a very strange argument for not pursuing a career. The most important thing is do something that interests you or at least makes you enough money to do the things that interest you.

I would take your own advice from a previous comment and don't get yourself tied up in knots over the comment especially considering I already covered the point about sitting in the chair which was said in which people should be (ideally) looking at what their intended career may be and what long-term that means regardless of what one is doing. You're going to have to figure out how to not turn the conversation into something other than what it was which was the poster talking about the reality of what a physically demanding job that trades can often be can do to the body which deserves to also be considered not just "don't go to college, do trades instead". In no way is anyone talking about overweight so let's try and not go off on that

 

[DCLMP]

I would take your own advice from a previous comment and don't get yourself tied up in knots over the comment especially considering I already covered the point about sitting in the chair which was said in which people should be (ideally) looking at what their intended career may be and what long-term that means regardless of what one is doing. You're going to have to figure out how to not turn the conversation into something other than what it was which was the poster talking about the reality of what a physically demanding job that trades can often be can do to the body which deserves to also be considered not just "don't go to college, do trades instead". In no way is anyone talking about overweight so let's try and not go off on that

I would take your own advice and not get tied into knots over my overweight comment. I stated kids should do what interests them whether that's a trade or college. You should also take your own advice and not turn the conversation into something its not.