Disney and the No-fly Zone

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I don't really have a " military opinion" because I'm not in the military but I can say that I'm sure that it's more than a three mile circle up to 3000 feet (the current TFR around DL). Also, there are no missles set-up around DL. You can't hide those things.

This is called "symbolism over substance."

Roy

Why don't you research a little piece of military equipment called "The Avenger" and then get back to me on what you just said. Don't be so sure about hiding them? We have a nuclear plant near our house. There have been three Avengers deployed there since 9/13

 

[roymccoy]

I'm not going to get into any of this "conspiracy theory" stuff. I live right next to DL and there are no weapons at or around DL. That wouldn't be something they'd want to hide, anyway. THAT would be a better deterent than a ticket from the FAA, 30 days later, that you busted a TFR.

Bottomline, Disney used the current state of alert to get something that they have wanted since 1980. They wanted the sightseers and the banner tow planes to go away.


Roy

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Well said AV, but I thought the timer stopped at 00:00:01?

Also just to point out that missles dont have to come from the ground. The US Air Force has been flying CAP's (Combat Air Patrol) over the United States since 9/11. (Remember those flights that were escorted the airport by F-15's in the days after 9/11?)

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I'm not going to get into any of this "conspiracy theory" stuff. I live right next to DL and there are no weapons at or around DL. That wouldn't be something they'd want to hide, anyway. THAT would be a better deterent than a ticket from the FAA, 30 days later, that you busted a TFR.

Conspiracy theory or not. You have no way of proving that they aren't there just as anyone else doesn't have a way of proving that they are. The point still stands that nobody has a clue of what our government is/isn't capable of doing. There could be weapons sitting right under your nose and if they government didn't want you to know about it.... guess what? You wouldn't. But I believe the point that you are missing is that these TFR's are specifically targeted at one key demographic, i.e. "law abiding" pilots as you put it. They are put out there as a general warning and I have to side with Another Voice on this one, the less chances that you get to "practice" flying at an object, the less chance you have of actually hitting it. Without trying to start a riot: SUCK IT UP! Almost everyone in this country has had to make some type of sacrifice in the interest of security. Whether it be security checks at airports, bag searches on your way into your office building, the way you travel every day, or taking your personal plane to San Diego. Deal with it. Make adjustments like everyone else.

*sarcasm* Boo-hoo whaaa....... the banner pilots can't fly over Disney anymore. Why don't these companies take out print and media ads? *end sarcasm*

Bottomline, Disney used the current state of alert to get something that they have wanted since 1980. They wanted the sightseers and the banner tow planes to go away.

Good, good for them! When I go to Disney I go for the "total" experience, not so I can have "Eat At Joe's" while I'm walking around or a helicopter buzz by as I'm trying to watch the parade.

 

[Dznefreek]

Good, good for them! When I go to Disney I go for the "total" experience, not so I can have "Eat At Joe's" while I'm walking around or a helicopter buzz by as I'm trying to watch the parade.

Do you think you are really entering "another world?"

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Dznefreek
Do you think you are really entering "another world?"

Yes I do, just the way that Walt wanted it.

 

[Mr D]

Personally I am glad to see restrictions of the space over WDW regardless of how or why, it makes the trip better to not see those intrusive advertising people all over the Orlando area trying to get the tourists dollar.

That is my favorite strategy every time we visit the area, keeping our expenses down. And almost every turn, every corner, and even here at the DIS boards there is someone who has an interest to get the visitor to Orlando to throw money in their direction, be it their comments about where to stay or otherwise.

 

[Dznefreek]

Yes I do, just the way that Walt wanted it.

You do know it is just a theme park; nothing more, nothing less.

 

[roymccoy]

For those who have said that they like the TFR's, not because of safety but because they make the DL experience more "pleasurable" I would point out that people's (pilots) rights are being taken away for absolutely no good reason. Pilots and planes and airports have been here LONG before DL was ever built. If these rights can be taken away, who's to say that some other decision somewhere in the future may say that DL is just too much of a target to have open and order it to be closed. This slippery slope doesn't have to end with banner towing aircraft. Once these politicians get going, who knows where they'll stop. They just did something that hadn't been done in 100 years of aviation. They put a Prohibited Airspace ring around a commercial business. This is scary and the errosion of our freedoms won't stop there....you can bet on that.


Roy

 

[roymccoy]

As to Walt not wanting airplanes flying over DL and runing his "perfect world", Walt loved airplanes. He owned many and liked to use small planes and helicopters for travel. If you look at Walt's office, there are many models of planes on his desk. Mickey Mouses' first cartoon was Plane Crazy. Walt had no problem with airplanes flying around DL. On the contrary, they were obviously a big part of his world.

Roy

BTW - much of the helicopter traffic flying over DL is either Disney owned or leased helicopters surveying DL and DCA or Anaheim Police aircraft.

 

[airlarry!]

This will probably offend some here, but here goes:

The thought that there are no private pilots with 120 hours of flight time tooling above a Disney Theme park on a Sunday sight-seeing joy ride makes me smile. Airline pilots with 10,000 hours I can understand. Allowing a live missle with a guy who has less hours in a plane that my cousin's 16 year old has in her '84 Maverick makes me just a tad bit nervous now.

And the second thought is that allowing private pilots use of the airspace directly above a Disney theme park is like inviting terrorists who either can't fly or want to learn to make a simple request of their pilot to 'take me over that great American theme park please for a closer look.' One nice quick shot from a stolen pistol and you've got that live missle again heading right for it's a small world.

 

[Another Voice]

“THAT would be a better deterrent than a ticket from the FAA,”

The key is to shove as much uncertainty into the enemy’s plans as possible. Every element they can not be cure of working correctly creates a chance for failure, each contingency plan they are forced to adopt is a chance for them to miss something, each step in the operation they are forced to take is one more opportunity that they will make a mistake. That is the purpose of the air space restriction – it is not and will not work as simply a free fire zone in the air. And it is infinitely better than doing nothing because “something” isn’t 100% perfect.

At the start of WWII the cities along the eastern seaboard refused to implement black-out procedures because they feared it would harm businesses. As a result over 25% of the U.S. commercial shipping sunk in the Atlantic was sunk within sight of land; the German U-boats were able to silhouette their targets against the background glow of light from all those neon signs. One always has to wonder at the lengths some groups will go to protect their alleged “rights”, even if it places others in great harm during a time of war. The slippery slope is lined with equal parts of good intentions and self interest.



“but I thought the timer stopped at 00:00:01?”

They’re SEALS; it’s the Delts that take so long the clock ticks down to just one second.

 

[roymccoy]

airlarry...I ask again, what is a TFR going to do to stop that person? Why don't we put up a big "No Terrorist" sign and see if that works. Why don't we pass an ammendment that makes terrorism illegal..it would have just as much teeth. The pilots that obey the rules aren't our problem. The only people that will respond to the TFR are law-abiding pilots, not the terrorists.

Another bit of common sense about this. Our plane goes 160 mph. The TFR around DL is 3 miles. A plane like ours could be in the TFR and crash into Disney in about 39 seconds. What could be done in 39 seconds?? Are you going to evacuate DL? Are you going to launch fighters from Edwards AFB? Launch helicopters from Los Alamitos?
You wouldn't have time to DO ANYTHING. That's why this is a useless TFR. All it does is make it tougher (and therefore more riskier) for the pilots who are transitioning DL to go somewhere else in the basin. Believe it or not, DL is not the only thing going on in SOCal and DL shouldn't impact the safety of a flight in the basin.

My wife has over 2000 hours and is commercially rated in a B-737. Most pilots are of this calibur in the basin. You have to be to fly in this airspace.

Feeling safe because there aren't any "120 hour pilots" flying over your head at DL is an insult to the system. When is the last time anyone crashed into DL? In almost 50 years of flying over DL, when is the last time it happened?? To be scared of that is just not using common sense. The system is tried and true. You are no safer with a TFR around DL than you are without it. You have a 1 in 28 chance of being killed in a car in your lifetime. You have more of a chance of being killed by killer bees than in a plane crash. Let's not start a witch hunt against General Aviation on some baseless fiction and theory.

Roy

 

[roymccoy]

Look, no offense to you all but this is not getting anywhere. You may feel safer by having the TFR around Disney and I think that I have pointed out why you should not. I am saying that it makes our jobs as pilots MUCH tougher and it adds risk to our flights that doesn't need to be there. I am afraid that this will cause an accident in or around Fullerton and John Wayne Airports because of the funneling of air traffic around this useless TFR. Already, we've had a couple of near misses leaving Fullerton because now we have to cross over the arriving traffic's flight path when we are departing to the east. This is dangerous and it is political. Shame on Disney for putting the lives of pilots at risk.

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Dznefreek
You do know it is just a theme park; nothing more, nothing less.

Take from it what you want. But for me Disney is the place where dreams are created and memories are made and shared. Call me a softie, but obviously you and I don't share the same feeling about the place. I don't get the same feeling of being a 12 year old again without a care in the world anywhere else that I've been.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
For those who have said that they like the TFR's, not because of safety but because they make the DL experience more "pleasurable" I would point out that people's (pilots) rights are being taken away for absolutely no good reason.

My rights, your rights, the women next door's rights, the guy down the street's right, the family two towns over rights. There reaches a point where people "rights" begin to overlap each other, where one person is offended or upset because there rights are being infringed upon by what someone else is doing, but that other person is just acting upon their rights also. I'm not trying to justify what Disney has done, but what makes your "rights" more valid then anybody else's?

If these rights can be taken away, who's to say that some other decision somewhere in the future may say that DL is just too much of a target to have open and order it to be closed.

And while we are at it let's close every National monument as well.

As to Walt not wanting airplanes flying over DL and runing his "perfect world", Walt loved airplanes.

Nobody is denying the fact, but also nobody state that Walt didn't want airplanes flying overhead. What was stated that Walt Disney wanted a visit to his parks to be an immersive experience (one that unfortunately isn't followed through at DisneyLand). When you are in the Magic Kingdom that is all you know. You can't see the hotels, the parking lot, the outside world.

airlarry...I ask again, what is a TFR going to do to stop that person? Why don't we put up a big "No Terrorist" sign and see if that works. Why don't we pass an ammendment that makes terrorism illegal..it would have just as much teeth. The pilots that obey the rules aren't our problem. The only people that will respond to the TFR are law-abiding pilots, not the terrorists.

I think you are completely missing the point. For a moment, to make it clearer to you, pretend that you are a terrorist with the intent on taking your plane right into the castle at the Magic Kingdom. Following me so far? You have laid out all your plans, double and triple checked everything. Your last plan is to do a "dry" run to see how quickly and what the best flight path to take to the castle would be. You hop in your plane and go. Still following me? I hope so. Now the FAA has put a TFR in the area that you are taking your test run through. You need to make a few passes to decide which would be the best course and cause the most destruction. Now at some point someone has been notified of your existance in this particular TFR, so now one of two things could happen I would think. You are unable to complete any future test runs, or are unable to complete the "final" run at all. That in my mind is the purpose of setting up these TFR's, to not give anyone a second chance. Anyone.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
A plane like ours could be in the TFR and crash into Disney in about 39 seconds. What could be done in 39 seconds?? Are you going to evacuate DL? Are you going to launch fighters from Edwards AFB? Launch helicopters from Los Alamitos?
You wouldn't have time to DO ANYTHING. That's why this is a useless TFR.

And again I ask, how can you be so positive about that? And again I say, the government is quite the "curtain of smoke", the general public has no clue what they have up their sleeve or out in defense.

Already, we've had a couple of near misses leaving Fullerton because now we have to cross over the arriving traffic's flight path when we are departing to the east.

Perhaps there should be more alert ground traffic control.

 

[roymccoy]

HMF - thank you for the childlike "step by step" process through your hypothetical scenario but you, my friend are the one that needs the lesson. The terrorist can still do his "practice dry bombing run" at 3001 feet. There is no problem with that. He can also be at 1000 feet on an IFR flight plan. He can be at 1000 feet with a class c departure or arrival into John Wayne airport. He could be at 1000 feet over DL on a missed approach into Fullerton. The TFR does nothing to stop terrorism. It stops law abiding pilots from freely navigating in the basin and puts their lives at risk. You know not of what you speak and I would appreciate it if you would do a little more research before you take me through another one of your scenarios.

Roy

P.S. As to how I can be certain the the government could do nothing in 39 seconds? Well, they couldn't do anything at the Pentagon and they had 20 minutes for that. That is the most secure building in the world.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
HMF - thank you for the childlike "step by step" process through your hypothetical scenario but you, my friend are the one that needs the lesson.

Without trying to get to personal, Seeing as how you had the childlike stubborness of "law abiding pilots" being the only people affected I figured it would help with a demonstration.

You know not of what you speak and I would appreciate it if you would do a little more research before you take me through another one of your scenarios.

I would appreciate if you would actually take the time to answer any of the questions that I've put forth, but que sara sara...

Well, they couldn't do anything at the Pentagon and they had 20 minutes for that. That is the most secure building in the world.

Without knowing that the Pentagon was the final target it was no surprise that they couldn't do anything. Taking a cue from you: You know not of what you speak and I would appreciate it if you would do a little more research before you take me through the steps that we "could have taken" to protect and unknown target (the Pentagon).

 

[roymccoy]

what question is still outstanding?

Roy